We need to go after a top DB, how many years has our secondary been crap now?

[Doomsday101]

yeah liek they did in the Florida game this year where he got beat deep mutiple times then they switched to zone and ran finally stopped FLorida and ran away with the game.

Yes he had a bad game vs Florida when he went up aginst Andre Debose and yet is still the 2nd best prospect at CB. Bama does play some zone they also play a lot of man coverage and Kirkpatrick often is manned up vs the top WR.

You calling him a zone CB is your opinion not shared by all.

 

[supercowboy8]

Yes he had a bad game vs Florida when he went up aginst Andre Debose and yet is still the 2nd best prospect at CB. Bama does play some zone they also play a lot of man coverage and Kirkpatrick often is manned up vs the top WR.

You calling him a zone CB is your opinion not shared by all.

it might not be shared by all but it is by many. I don't see him being a shut down CB in a defense that plays man cover. Where he is going to be drafted that better be what he becomes. He might be a good CB in man, not saying he can't play man, just saying he is far and away better as a zone CB and where he will be drafted he will not live up to being as a man cover CB.

To me drafting Kirkpatrick that high he should be left on a island but I don't see it whith his speed and hips. He will be great if drafted by a zone defense team. Where he can have a real good Safety playing over top of him in zone like Alabama did so many times this year.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Okay ... so even with 2 good corners Rex wasnt able to get his Jets into the playoffs ... and we are gonna get just one in the first round? Or are we gonna overpay for a CB in Free Agency also? BTW ... i think Jenkins will be an okay nickel back .. thats about it.

The age old question right? I tend to agree with you on this, or at least, what I think you might be trying to get at.

Of the 12 teams in the playoffs, I think that really only GB, NE and NO had poor defenses. All the rest either had decent defenses or defenses that came around towards the end of the season (Detroit, Denver, GMen). Of those 9 teams who do not do it with Offense (teams not named Packers, Pats or Saints), 7 of those 9 teams were in the top 10 in sacks in the NFL Defensively. The Pats were 14.

Baltimore 3
Giants 4
Cincy 5
Texans 6
9ers 7
Denver 10
Detroit 10

I have long been of the opinion that pressure does more for DB coverage then talent. You simply can't have 6 top DBs on one team. That's what you need if you are going to rely on your CBs and Safeties to get it done. I think you need good CBs and Safeties but I think you absolutely need guys who can pressure the QB. JMO

 

[robert70x7]

Are you talking about Janoris Jenkins. The Nickel for him would be awful. You want your nickel CB to bigger and more physical zone type liek Scandrick.

Janoris Jenkins is the best pure man cover CB in the draft. Has amazing speed and great hips to turn and run with anyone and mirror any WR.

Jenkins also wins the "Most Likely to Succeed Sam Hurd" drug award.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Good first post.

For this offseason, I hope that they sign a decent FA CB AND draft a CB in the first 3 rounds.

They need the FA because it appears that Rob Ryan does not like to play young players. He played Alan Ball and cut Josh Thomas and Bryan McCann. I don't think that there is any possibility that Alan Ball is physically better than either Thomas or McCann.

The 2012 draft appears to have a long list of CBs that can probably play in the NFL; however, other than Claiborne, none of them appear to be a slam-dunk to be great.

I hope that they draft CBs with high upsides vs ones that are more ready now but have limited upsides. A player like Dennard might be more ready now, but his upside might be more limited than some others.

I think Alan Ball played pretty well this season considering the situation, and i don't have any doubt he's a better CB than both Thomas and McCann. Neither of those guys have ever showed much of anything at the position, although McCann was decent on returns.

 

[Doomsday101]

it might not be shared by all but it is by many. I don't see him being a shut down CB in a defense that plays man cover. Where he is going to be drafted that better be what he becomes. He might be a good CB in man, not saying he can't play man, just saying he is far and away better as a zone CB and where he will be drafted he will not live up to being as a man cover CB.

To me drafting Kirkpatrick that high he should be left on a island but I don't see it whith his speed and hips. He will be great if drafted by a zone defense team. Where he can have a real good Safety playing over top of him in zone like Alabama did so many times this year.

That is your take. Myself I like the kid and would have no problem getting him at 14. He is not considered a zone cover guy and listed as the 2nd best CB in the draft. Come on.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Are you talking about Janoris Jenkins. The Nickel for him would be awful. You want your nickel CB to bigger and more physical zone type liek Scandrick.

Janoris Jenkins is the best pure man cover CB in the draft. Has amazing speed and great hips to turn and run with anyone and mirror any WR.

Scandrick's measurables are almost identical to Jenkins'.. not sure what you're talking about. Both are 5'10 and 185-190 lbs.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

The age old question right? I tend to agree with you on this, or at least, what I think you might be trying to get at.

Of the 12 teams in the playoffs, I think that really only GB, NE and NO had poor defenses. All the rest either had decent defenses or defenses that came around towards the end of the season (Detroit, Denver, GMen). Of those 9 teams who do not do it with Offense (teams not named Packers, Pats or Saints), 7 of those 9 teams were in the top 10 in sacks in the NFL Defensively. The Pats were 14.

Baltimore 3
Giants 4
Cincy 5
Texans 6
9ers 7
Denver 10
Detroit 10

I have long been of the opinion that pressure does more for DB coverage then talent. You simply can't have 6 top DBs on one team. That's what you need if you are going to rely on your CBs and Safeties to get it done. I think you need good CBs and Safeties but I think you absolutely need guys who can pressure the QB. JMO

Alot of truth in there. I will say though, the Jets are brought up in this thread, but really their offense was horrible at the end the year and have a questionable at best pass rush, so saying they are an example of a team that shows you don't need great CB play is just not true. They have alot more problems everywhere on their team.

As for right now, I just don't see Dre getting to us, and the rest of the CBs would have to workout very well to move up for consideration at 14. To me, its just if we wanna move up for Dre, otherwise like pointed out above, its about the pass rush.

I figure by draft time, we could see some of those pass rushers move up based on workouts. Hard to say who it will be right now, never know this early, but I can definitely see it happening.

 

[JackWagon]

Thats exactly what im attempting to get through everyones heads. WE dont need elite corners ... we need elite front 7 players capable of stopping the run and rushing the passers. The ravens and steelers have defenses like this ... there is no reason why we cant have them ... oh but we cant draft .. thats right .. who am i kidding.

BTW i was talking about Mike "Toast" Jenkins ... who everyone thinks is out BESTEST Corner.

 

[robert70x7]

Thats exactly what im attempting to get through everyones heads. WE dont need elite corners ... we need elite front 7 players capable of stopping the run and rushing the passers. The ravens and steelers have defenses like this ... there is no reason why we cant have them ... oh but we cant draft .. thats right .. who am i kidding.

BTW i was talking about Mike "Toast" Jenkins ... who everyone thinks is out BESTEST Corner.

Jenkins is our best corner.

 

[supercowboy8]

That is your take. Myself I like the kid and would have no problem getting him at 14. He is not considered a zone cover guy and listed as the 2nd best CB in the draft. Come on.

he is listed as a zone guy be several people maybe just not you. I think he can play man but not be a great shutdown CB in man.

So just beacause he ranked #2 must mean he is no matter what the greatest. I guess since Tom Brady wasn;t ranked #1 or #2 QB his draft year must mean he must suck. Get over rankings and get to watch players and know the difference between schemes and systems and what Dallas runs.

For a team like Indy or Tampa, Kirkpatrick would be the #2 CB on their board. He's 5th or so on mine and wouldn't take him at 14.

 

[supercowboy8]

Scandrick's measurables are almost identical to Jenkins'.. not sure what you're talking about. Both are 5'10 and 185-190 lbs.

ok I said size not measurables. Look at their bulk. Scandrick is about 10 pounds heavier and much stronger and more physical whichis what you want in a nickel CB. Janoris Jenkins is 10 pounds lighter and very slim and not as strong.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

ok I said size not measurables. Look at their bulk. Scandrick is about 10 pounds heavier and much stronger and more physical whichis what you want in a nickel CB. Janoris Jenkins is 10 pounds lighter and very slim and not as strong.

Sorry, when i hear size, i think size.

If you meant, strength.. that's a different issue.

 

[supercowboy8]

Sorry, when i hear size, i think size.

If you meant, strength.. that's a different issue.

well thats the way you think it, when I think size I think overall size not just height and wieght.

 

[Blitz88]

I agree with some of you saying that having a pass rush is of great importance, and of course that willl help the secondary, but even if we upgraded our pass rush, we will still give up big passing plays with Scandrick and Alan Ball as our #2 and #3. In man to man single coverage situations, Scandrick and Ball will still get eaten up like clockwork, there's no doubt about it, we've seen it happen over and over. Scandrick is decent, but the dude has almost zero ball skills. Alan Ball is ok for a backup, but we need a reliable starter.

We NEED to get another great/decent corner to go alongside Jenkins. Our corners have been an issue for about the past decade it seems, its time we made a significant change. It seems to me a decent pass rusher would be easier to add than a top-tier shutdown corner, and with the scheme that Rob runs, we need a shutdown corner.

With OG's being a plenty in this years draft, we can draft one in the third and should be able to make a decent upgrade. Maybe the first we can try to get one of the top two CB, if that doesn't happen, draft the best pass-rusher available, and maybe pick up Dennard/or the Virginia Tech guy in the second.

Once again, I'm probably an idiot when it comes to this stuff lol, but it's about damn time we upgraded our DB's.

 

[Future]

There are plenty of good options in the 2nd at cb. Some I really don't value much below Kirkpatrick. If we can land Minnifield, Jenkins, Heyward, or Boykin in the 2nd I'd be very happy.

100% agree. Especially if it means we are taking DeCastro in the first.

 

[Blitz88]

I still think Dennard would be a solid pick, I can understand not wanting to take him at #14 though. He's shorter than the other big CB's in the draft, but the dude is very physical, and has got some speed on him. I do remember watching him shutdown Blackmon of OSU the entire second half of their game this year. Minniefield doesn't look too bad either, and if we could snag him in the second, I think I'd probably be pretty pleased with it. IDK, there's something about Dennard I really like though, he seems like prince amukamara, only better.

Of course, if we somehow were able to get Dre Kirkpatrick, I'd take him easily over the others, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

 

[supercowboy8]

I still think Dennard would be a solid pick, I can understand not wanting to take him at #14 though. He's shorter than the other big CB's in the draft, but the dude is very physical, and has got some speed on him. I do remember watching him shutdown Blackmon of OSU the entire second half of their game this year. Minniefield doesn't look too bad either, and if we could snag him in the second, I think I'd probably be pretty pleased with it. IDK, there's something about Dennard I really like though, he seems like prince amukamara, only better.

Of course, if we somehow were able to get Dre Kirkpatrick, I'd take him easily over the others, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

umm you must be confused, OK ST. never played Nebraska this year.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/gamelog/_/id/380077/year/2011/justin-blackmon

 

[RoyTheHammer]

well thats the way you think it, when I think size I think overall size not just height and wieght.

Height + Weight = Size

lol

 

[supercowboy8]

Height + Weight = Size

lol

so does bulk and strength

If you see two guys both 6 feet, one is slim and at 185 and the other is 195 but alittle wider and bulkier, are you going to say they are the same size. No the guy that has more bulk is bigger.

This is the difference between Janoris Jenkins and Scandrick