CFZ What is it about 2nd Round picks here?

[Batman1980]

Jerry, once he has success at something, thinks that means it's always all him that was the cause of the success.

Larry Allen was a second round pick. HOF player, maybe the best OL player eve for Dallas. And I go way back to the late 1960's following Dallas, so I've seen the Wrights, Williams, etc.

So now Jerry thinks any "not a lock" second rounder is bound to be a great success, after all, Allen was, right? Just stands to reason.

I would actually argue players such as Sean Lee and Randy Gregory were not great successes. DeMarcus Lawrence has been middling to good here, that should be the absolute baseline for what you want from a 2nd round pick.

Don't look at the 3rd round picks for the last 20 years lol.

 

[Diehardblues]

Remember what Jethro has always maintained in that because he’s not accountable to anyone being the owner and GM he can take these risk that no other GM would be allowed or tolerated.

 

[Diehardblues]

These are the type of risk taken when you don’t have a keen eye for talent. You take risk on players falling in the draft that would have otherwise been taken higher.

And in our toxic culture without the type of discipline needed from a coaching staff that’s not being undermined , this is probably one of the worst venues for a problem player to come and expect to turn around .

 

[LACowboysFan1]

I would actually argue players such as Sean Lee and Randy Gregory were not great successes. DeMarcus Lawrence has been middling to good here, that should be the absolute baseline for what you want from a 2nd round pick.

Don't look at the 3rd round picks for the last 20 years lol.

Though for any 3rd rounders there's not a huge success rate for any one particular team.

 

[Diehardblues]

That's what regular fans say...sometimes you have to have a sack and swing for the fences.

I think most fans would agree an occasional risk might be tolerated and possibly applauded.

But our track record says this 2nd round has become more than just an occasional risk. When we should be landing a credible starter.

So curious , you don’t see an issue in these last 15 years?

I could take Bobs argument even further and say because of missing on this second round so regularly it was a contributing factor to not building a better team and possibly prevented this franchise from more success.

 

[Ranching]

I think most fans would agree an occasional risk might be tolerated and possibly applauded.

But our track record says this 2nd round has become more than just an occasional risk. When we should be landing a credible starter.

So curious , you don’t see an issue in these last 15 years?

I could take Bobs argument even further and say because of missing on this second round so regularly it was a contributing factor to not building a better team and possibly prevented this franchise from more success.

I see it, and I wish they were all homeruns....unfortunately, they are not.....just the way I roll....I respect those that dissect every move and are critical of them.....if that's how they enjoy the game, good for them.....I don't enjoy it like that, I like to be positive and take it one season at a time. Salud! Happy Easter weekend..

 

[charron]

7 out of 12 we're good players and picks. Lower your expectations if you think we're supposed to be picking HOF players every year.

 

[Bobhaze]

i think you are shorting Jaylon.

Pro Bowl and 500 tackles in 4 seasons.

on a repaired knee.


THill looks like a bust for sure.

He did have an amazing comeback just to be able to play. But when an NFL 2nd round pick is no longer in the league 6 seasons after being drafted, it’s a bust. He did have a pro bowl season. But then his performance fell off the table. I just think his injury was so severe he was never going to consistently play at a high level again.

The Jaylon Smith story is a perfect example of why you should never use a second round pick on a player with a big injury risk. If he had been a 4th round pick it would not have hurt the team as much.

 

[Bobhaze]

I see it, and I wish they were all homeruns....unfortunately, they are not.....just the way I roll....I respect those that dissect every move and are critical of them.....if that's how they enjoy the game, good for them.....I don't enjoy it like that, I like to be positive and take it one season at a time. Salud! Happy Easter weekend..

Ranching, I’m not dissecting every move. Drafting is hard. I get it. I am being critical of the drafting philosophy to consistently take a risk with a premium draft pick- rounds 1-3. In the last 15 drafts, we have only had 3 second round picks ever get a second contract here. And one of them was Jaylon Smith.

Jerry just loves to roll the dice in round two and that is simply not smart. If Jerry had taken that kind of risk once in a while, that might be ok. To do it multiple times is a foolish risk of draft capital.

 

[Aven8]

And over in the draft zone people are wanting to trade back to get multiple 2nd round picks. No thanks….

 

[Batman1980]

And over in the draft zone people are wanting to trade back to get multiple 2nd round picks. No thanks….

I'd say yes to trading to the back of the 1st round if there's a lot of players left that we can get and if there's a 1st in 2023 involved. I'd also be okay with tossing out our 2nd round pick to get a mid 1st that becomes a franchise cornerstone.

 

[Flamma]

I have never understood the mindset that making a premium second round draft pick is the perfect place to roll the draft dice. Take chances in rounds 4-7. Round two picks should be starting if not right away, at least showing they can soon.

Under the Jones FO, this team has done very well with first round picks but conversely have down awful in round two. It’s almost laughable how our 2nd round picks have turned out for this team. Let’s look at our 2nd round picks in the last 15 drafts:

• 2007- No selection- traded prior to draft.
• 2008- Martellius Bennett- TE. Had a good career after he left Dallas. Somehow, this team could never figure out how to pair him with Witten.
• 2009- No selection because Jerry traded the 2nd round pick to Buffalo for a 3rd and and two 4ths. Part of one of the worst drafts in Cowboys history.
• 2010- Sean Lee- LB- first round talent with a mile long injury history. He was great…when he played. He missed a whopping 58 games in his 11 year career.
• 2011- Bruce Carter- LB- a pretty prospect out of college, played in 32 games in 4 yrs in Dallas. Has had an ok NFL career.
• 2012- no 2nd round pick; traded to the rams so we could move up in round one to get Mo Claiborne with the 5th pick. Claiborne was pretty much a bust considering what this team gave up to get him.
• 2013- Gavin Escobar-TE- at total BUST. Started 7 games in 4 years and rarely played. Was completely out of the league 5 yrs after being drafted.
• 2014- DeMarcus Lawrence- DE- despite what many fans here think, DLaw has been an outstanding player. Most don’t like him because of his paycheck. He’s a 2nd rounder that has worked out here.
• 2015- Randy Gregory- DE- another of Jerry’s wild risks on a guy with great talent but struggling with well chronicled mental health and substance issues off the field. In 7 seasons, never played more than 12 games. And JJ was prepared to pay him like a star before Denver stepped in.
• 2016- Jaylon Smith- LB- another medical risk pick on a guy who was once a stud. His college knee injury was so devastating, he never got back to his potential. Somehow JJ saw him as a top 10 LB in the league and paid him accordingly. Was cut less than two years later and out of the league.
• 2017- Chidobe Awuzie- CB- turned into a decent corner yet was not deemed worth keeping. Started for the Bengals in the SB last year.
• 2018- Connor Williams- OL- drafted to play LG and played ok at times. Often overwhelmed by bull rushers and eventually became the best holder in the league with the stats to prove it. I never thought this guy was anything special. Signed with Miami this off-season.
• 2019- Trysten Hill- DT- going into his 4th NFL season, he has to be called a bust. Jury still out…kinda.
• 2020- Trayvon Diggs- CB- had an All pro season last year and is still only 24. Needs to improve his coverage skills more but he’s been the best 2nd rounder we’ve had along with DLaw.
• 2021- Kelvin Joseph- CB- we all know about the recent “person of interest” embrolio he got himself into. His off field behavior was a red flag going into last yrs draft. Which is often a green light for JJ. Too early to know how this turns out.

So in the last 15 drafts, the Cowboys drafted 12 players in the second round. If you count Jaylon Smith, only three of those 12 ever played for Dallas after their rookie deals- so far. Those guys are Sean Lee, DLaw, and Jaylon Smith. Diggs will probably get a second deal- at least we think so at this point.

With Kelvin Joseph’s potential legal woes, we may have to add another bust to this list.

THIS YEAR- Here’s hoping we draft a talented, un-injured player with no off field issues.

That's a truly amazing list of nothing. I liked or like Lee, DLaw, and Diggs. That's it. Despite the injuries, Lee was still one of my favorite Cowboys. But damn with the injuries. One of the smartest linebackers I've seen play. Possible HOF if he wasn't injured so often. Even now, as we speak, he's probably pulling a hamstring riding a bike.

 

[Ranching]

Ranching, I’m not dissecting every move. Drafting is hard. I get it. I am being critical of the drafting philosophy to consistently take a risk with a premium draft pick- rounds 1-3. In the last 15 drafts, we have only had 3 second round picks ever get a second contract here. And one of them was Jaylon Smith.

Jerry just loves to roll the dice in round two and that is simply not smart. If Jerry had taken that kind of risk once in a while, that might be ok. To do it multiple times is a foolish risk of draft capital.

He likes taking chances, worked for him in business.....not so much with 2nd round picks. I wish he would blow 3rd or 4th round picks.....2nd rounders should be able to start. But, It is what it is.

 

[kskboys]

I think most fans would agree an occasional risk might be tolerated and possibly applauded.

But our track record says this 2nd round has become more than just an occasional risk. When we should be landing a credible starter.

So curious , you don’t see an issue in these last 15 years?

I could take Bobs argument even further and say because of missing on this second round so regularly it was a contributing factor to not building a better team and possibly prevented this franchise from more success.

2nd round picks are generally an integral part of the core of your team. Throwing them at projects, small schoolers, and injured players is beyond foolish.

 

[MWH1967]

Maybe just some bad luck. 2nd's tend to have potential but, may have injurie or charter flaws.

 

[Creeper]

The history of 2nd round picks sure looks bad but I am not ready to write Kelvin Joseph off just yet. Based on what I know today about the shooting incident, I see a clear path for Joseph to escape a prison sentence. As long as he is willing to cooperate and tell the complete truth to the police he has a chance for a plea deal that will keep him out of jail. In his case, contrition will go a long way towards saving his future. The odds are no more than 50-50 but it depends on the DA and the judge.

Maybe this is a scared straight moment for Joseph. The threat of losing his job, money and freedom will sometimes turn a would-be thug around.

I also think Gregory was finally growing up and if they had kept him he may have finally paid off the Cowboys investment over the next couple of years.

I think this year is Trysten Hill's last chance to prove his worth. I do think he had an epiphany after his first year. He was playing some pretty good football last year. Not flashy but showing some quickness and ability. This is his contract year so if he is ever going to have a breakout season this would be it.

I think drafting Jaylon Smith was a deliberate gamble. Many teams took him off their draft boards because of his injury. Some doctors said he would never play again. Jerry gambled. He was probably not worth a 2nd round pick though. Then again he was an all-pro one season. And remember, everyone knew Jaylon would not play for at least a year after he was drafted.

I think Awuzie was a decent CB and the best on the Cowboys team in 2020. I could argue he played like a 2nd round pick and he is playing pretty well for for the Bengals. Is he an all-pro? No, but based on history the expectations of getting an all-pro player in round 2 is significantly lower than round 1.

Connor Williams is the enigma. He may be playing out of position at OG. But let me ask this, if not for his penalties how would you rate him overall? If just seems like the league started picking on him with those holding calls and never let up. Sure he deserved some of them, and at times he looked overpowered by big strong DTs. But if not for penalties I could make an argument he was a decent OG.

My gut feel is that the Cowboys have not done a good job in the 2nd round overall, but how do they compare to other teams around the league? As I stated the number of all-pro players taken in the 2nd round drops off from the first round so maybe it is not just the Cowboys failing to do well in the 2nd round. From 2014-2018, 13 first round picks and 6 2nd round picks made the pro-bowl on average. So it is twice as hard to find a pro-bowl caliber player in the 2nd round compared to the first.

 

[buybuydandavis]

I have never understood the mindset that making a premium second round draft pick is the perfect place to roll the draft dice. Take chances in rounds 4-7. Round two picks should be starting if not right away, at least showing they can soon.

Every round is a round to take a risk. One of the theoretical *advantages* of our GM/Owner is not having the same near term risk aversion that hired GMs have.

In 2018 it looked like genius with Jaylon and Gregory seemingly panning out. And now, not.

The problem with some of these guys is not the risk, but the reach. Hill?

The biggest risk/disappointment has been LVE in the 1st. Peaked as a rookie, then his *known* injury history caught up with him.

We've taken so much injury risk *at LB*, probably the 2nd most punishing position beyond RB. Maybe we should stop that one.

A possibility with Jerry: there is no bad press. All media attention makes him money. Problem children bring eyeballs more reliably than model citizens. For the bottom line, the guys with behavioral risk may be a net benefit to the bottom line.

 

[Blitzen]

I see it, and I wish they were all homeruns....unfortunately, they are not.....just the way I roll....I respect those that dissect every move and are critical of them.....if that's how they enjoy the game, good for them.....I don't enjoy it like that, I like to be positive and take it one season at a time. Salud! Happy Easter weekend..

Let’s all drink a toast to this catastrophe!

 

[FiveSuperBowls]

It’s the gambler in Jerry that takes over after the first.

 

[Blitzen]

I have never understood the mindset that making a premium second round draft pick is the perfect place to roll the draft dice. Take chances in rounds 4-7. Round two picks should be starting if not right away, at least showing they can soon.

Under the Jones FO, this team has done very well with first round picks but conversely have down awful in round two. It’s almost laughable how our 2nd round picks have turned out for this team. Let’s look at our 2nd round picks in the last 15 drafts:

• 2007- No selection- traded prior to draft.
• 2008- Martellius Bennett- TE. Had a good career after he left Dallas. Somehow, this team could never figure out how to pair him with Witten.
• 2009- No selection because Jerry traded the 2nd round pick to Buffalo for a 3rd and and two 4ths. Part of one of the worst drafts in Cowboys history.
• 2010- Sean Lee- LB- first round talent with a mile long injury history. He was great…when he played. He missed a whopping 58 games in his 11 year career.
• 2011- Bruce Carter- LB- a pretty prospect out of college, played in 32 games in 4 yrs in Dallas. Has had an ok NFL career.
• 2012- no 2nd round pick; traded to the rams so we could move up in round one to get Mo Claiborne with the 5th pick. Claiborne was pretty much a bust considering what this team gave up to get him.
• 2013- Gavin Escobar-TE- at total BUST. Started 7 games in 4 years and rarely played. Was completely out of the league 5 yrs after being drafted.
• 2014- DeMarcus Lawrence- DE- despite what many fans here think, DLaw has been an outstanding player. Most don’t like him because of his paycheck. He’s a 2nd rounder that has worked out here.
• 2015- Randy Gregory- DE- another of Jerry’s wild risks on a guy with great talent but struggling with well chronicled mental health and substance issues off the field. In 7 seasons, never played more than 12 games. And JJ was prepared to pay him like a star before Denver stepped in.
• 2016- Jaylon Smith- LB- another medical risk pick on a guy who was once a stud. His college knee injury was so devastating, he never got back to his potential. Somehow JJ saw him as a top 10 LB in the league and paid him accordingly. Was cut less than two years later and out of the league.
• 2017- Chidobe Awuzie- CB- turned into a decent corner yet was not deemed worth keeping. Started for the Bengals in the SB last year.
• 2018- Connor Williams- OL- drafted to play LG and played ok at times. Often overwhelmed by bull rushers and eventually became the best holder in the league with the stats to prove it. I never thought this guy was anything special. Signed with Miami this off-season.
• 2019- Trysten Hill- DT- going into his 4th NFL season, he has to be called a bust. Jury still out…kinda.
• 2020- Trayvon Diggs- CB- had an All pro season last year and is still only 24. Needs to improve his coverage skills more but he’s been the best 2nd rounder we’ve had along with DLaw.
• 2021- Kelvin Joseph- CB- we all know about the recent “person of interest” embrolio he got himself into. His off field behavior was a red flag going into last yrs draft. Which is often a green light for JJ. Too early to know how this turns out.

So in the last 15 drafts, the Cowboys drafted 12 players in the second round. If you count Jaylon Smith, only three of those 12 ever played for Dallas after their rookie deals- so far. Those guys are Sean Lee, DLaw, and Jaylon Smith. Diggs will probably get a second deal- at least we think so at this point.

With Kelvin Joseph’s potential legal woes, we may have to add another bust to this list.

THIS YEAR- Here’s hoping we draft a talented, un-injured player with no off field issues.

The only vote we get to make is paying attention and money to the thing. The team makes plenty of cash which takes all accountability away from JJ and family. They do not maneuver for bang/bust scenarios, mainly because of past failures and possibly bleak scenarios. As long as they are in contention for playoffs, there will not be any major changes in philosophy. Every Cowboys fan should pray that the NFC East opponents get much better and more competitive to force the Cowboy’s hand.