Why are excessive flags blamed on officials rather than on players?

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Red Dragon, Sep 19, 2019.

  1. Red Dragon

    Red Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Let me clarify that I dislike flags and penalties as much as any other football viewer. They are frustrating and muck up the game.

    That being said, the reason officials are throwing flags is because players are.......committing violations. What do you expect the officials to do, other than throw a flag when they see a violation?

    To call for "fewer flags" would be to demand that officials willfully turn a blind eye to violations when they see them, which I think would be even more problematic than throwing many flags. The onus should be on the players to avoid breaking the rules, rather than on the officials to not enforce such rules. I'm sure there isn't a single Cowboys fan who is glad that the refs avoided flagging Deion for pass interference on Irvin in the 1994 conference title game, for instance, thinking "Well, at least the game wasn't bogged down by a PI flag."
     
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  2. Proximo

    Proximo Well-Known Member

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    C’mon man, we all know it’s not that black and white.
     
  3. Silly

    Silly Well-Known Member

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    I watched the packers Vikings game, Looked like a lot of ticky tack calls cost the vikes the game, There was 4 offensive pi calls.
     
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  4. Tangle_Foot

    Tangle_Foot Well-Known Member

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    During the next CBA teams should push for more practice time, blocking and tackling have suffered from the result of having less time to practice.
     
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  5. Future

    Future Intramural Legend

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    Because the officials are just now deciding to call stuff that they've always ignored.

    Holding is the worst penalty in sports. You could call it almost every play and it's been that way for...since I've been alive. Just arbitrarily deciding to call more now is 100% the refs fault, not the players. You can't just expect OL to change the way they block overnight.
     
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  6. Hook'em#11

    Hook'em#11 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is not the refs per say.

    The inconsistency and the lack of throwing the flag on TRUE penalties, not the ticky tacky ones that shouldn't be called, is the problem IMO.. The NFL has their hands too much in this penalty nonsense. Now with this lame PI challenge stuff. It's getting ridiculous. Let em play.
     
  7. pansophy

    pansophy Well-Known Member

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    If you actually are wondering about this go read about ROC Curve Analysis. Pick a threshold to call a penalty and you can generate sensitivity and specificity measures.

    If you believe that refs are capable of calling every penalty perfectly without calling fouls that were legal plays or vice versa letting plays go that we’re fouls then that’s the issue. Refs miss penalties, and being biased human beings also means that their thresholds to call penalties changes play-to-play, player-to-player, team-to-team, and game-to-game.

    The blown PI call from the Rams / Saints game was about expectations. It was far less clear if it was a penalty watching the game live then on replay because it was a broken play on the defense. The defender realized he was out of position and simply ran as fast as he could to get back into position and just ran through the WR. By the way the play unfolded the defender, and everyone else, thought he was going to be late to the play, and so when he surprisingly arrived early and ran through the WR no one really processed that.

    You look at the last 2 seconds of the play and wonder how anyone could miss that call let alone every ref in the area, but the brain is not a video recorder.
     
  8. CouchCoach

    CouchCoach Well-Known Member

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    Good question, they warned the coaches and players that they were going to enforce holding a little stronger.
     
  9. jaythecowboy

    jaythecowboy Well-Known Member

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    By definition, "excessive" flags are the refs fault because that means that flags are being thrown that aren't warranted. If the flags are warranted, then they are not excessive.
     
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  10. John813

    John813 Well-Known Member

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    https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/27282277/nfl-officials-emphasize-offensive-holding-19

    Offensive holding will be a significant point of emphasis for NFL officials this season, raising the possibility of a spike in penalties as players adjust to elevated rule enforcement.

    According to guidance released over the weekend, existing rules on holding "will be more strictly enforced this season, particularly on the backside of the run play or line of scrimmage." Referee Adrian Hill, who visited the Chicago Bears training camp Monday, said the league is trying to eliminate a technique sometimes known as the "lobster block," where offensive linemen grab defenders around the torso or shoulders to prevent them from flowing to the play from the backside.

    A video to be shown to every NFL player and coach offers three examples from recent history that would be penalized this season: blocks by the Los Angeles Rams' Andrew Whitworth, the Miami Dolphins' Laremy Tunsil and the Washington Redskins' Trent Williams.

    This was something the NFL wanted to "clean up" over the summer.
     
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  11. Hennessy_King

    Hennessy_King Well-Known Member

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    Yup remember that Green Bay offensive line technique that we could not believe wouldn't get called for holding is now finally holding. but there are a lot a real ticky tack calls that should not be called, let the players play
     
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  12. ksadler1

    ksadler1 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I think if the infraction is nowhere near the play, it shouldn't be called. If you have a running play that goes up the middle for two yards and there's a defensive holding in the secondary, it should be a non-call. If during a punt, the returner calls for a fair catch, holding should not be enforced unless it's against the offensive line because that can keep the D from blocking the punt. There's just too many ticky-tac calls that can affect the game that had nothing to do with the play...
     
  13. CouchCoach

    CouchCoach Well-Known Member

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    Ohhhhh, stop with this logic already.
     
  14. jsb357

    jsb357 Well-Known Member

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    calls going the packers way?

    you don't say...
     
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  15. Playmaker3128

    Playmaker3128 Well-Known Member

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    One word... consistency. Its almost like the officials want to become part of the action. In reality they should be seen less and less.

    The call against denver last week for roughing the passer on the bears last drive was ridiculous. It directly led to a loss for denver.

    I'm always of the believe you throw the flag if the penalty is over the top, not if its 50/50. Let these players play a bit.
     
  16. TexasHillbilly

    TexasHillbilly Well-Known Member

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    Seems pretty simple to me. Don't freakin hold.
     
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  17. Future

    Future Intramural Legend

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    Yea, the refs.

    Would you like me to differentiate between refs and the league? Fine. But the point is that the players aren't doing anything different.
     
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  18. Future

    Future Intramural Legend

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    Don't freakin drop the ball. Don't freakin fall down covering a 9. Don't freakin miss the blitz.

    Your solution is basically just "be better."

    Beyond that, what counts as a hold has changed. So what counted as "not freaking holding" last year no longer does.
     
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  19. charron

    charron Well-Known Member

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    Correct. How they look for and enforce the rules changes game to game
     
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  20. BatteryPowered

    BatteryPowered Active Member

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    I only have a passing knowledge of the rules of football. However, I officiated basketball up to low level college and know many officials who officiate both sports at a very high level (think NBA and Power 5 football). One of the key factors in many fouls/penalties is "advantage/disadvantage". There are some calls in every sport that are black and white...such as offsides in football or being in the restricted area on defense in basketball. Those are easy. The issue arises when an official has to determine if one athlete gained an advantage. You try to be consistent with that but what puts JJ Watts at a disadvantage is different that what put Taco at a disadvantage. And admit it, officials are human. They may try to get past that, but it is exceedingly difficult to do. You want to "be fair" to Taco while not tying JJ's hands to the point he loses his effectiveness.

    Consistency in football is even more difficult than in basketball. In basketball, while each official is responsible for the action in one primary area...that area changes hundreds of times during a game so they will officiate both teams from every angle on both offense and defense. That is not the case in football. They officiate both teams on both sides of the ball, but their primary area of focus is always the same. No matter how hard they try to work together as a crew, there will be times when their definition of advantage/disadvantage will be different that someone else on the crew watching basically the same actions on the other side of the field.

    While the extremes are not as pronounced at the professional level, officials go through the same maturation process. New officials want to make it known to "their boss" that they know the rules, so they call everything (they are tight). Then they realize that are hurting the game and over compensate, letting too much go uncalled (swallow their whistle). Finally, they get a feel for advantage/disadvantage at that level, settle down and become a good official. The process is always the same...the time spent in each step just keeps getting shorter as you move up.

    Remember, there are different groups at every game (regardless of the sport); Those that enjoy the game and cheer for a particular team (fans, who see with their heart), those that can play the game at that level (players, who see with their heart), those that can teach people to play at that level and can put them into a position to succeed (coaches, who see with their heart) and those that know the rules of the game (officials, who see with their mind). There can be people that are in more than one group at the same time and may have been in most of the groups at some point...but those groups are consistent. Every time an official blows his whistle/throws a flag, half the people involved in the game thinks they are an idiot.

    Officiating any sport, especially at the college or pro level, is A LOT harder than people think.
     
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