Why doesn't Roy play LB in the nickel?

[khiladi]

When you get one-on-one matchups between a safety and a WR, it is called a MIS-MATCH... this is what an offense wants on a deep ball...

the majority of the deep passes that are given away is because of coverage schemes... even the plays Watkins got beat on, they were blitzes where Watkins had man on man against a receiver... Philly knew it was coming... they got the matchup they wanted...

 

[Future]

Williams at LB in the nickle could be a good move since Parrish was brought in.
RW isn't big enough to play LB in the base 3-4, but on obvious passing downs, I think it would be a good idea. Bill Bates played nickle LB, I'm sure Roy Williams could. He isn't a great cover safety, but he would be a great cover linebacker.

As an LB he would still have to cover TEs. And as a safety or otherwise he has never shown anything to say that he can. See Shockey who has consistantly abused him.

Balance is great... but I think the pass rush would have a much bigger impact on the secondary than the secondary would the pass rush. There's a few plays a game where the good secondary would cause some coverage sacks... but a good, consistent pass rush would have an impact on nearly every play (some of those plays would be indirect impacts from the QB expecting the pressure)

Think you put that pretty much perfectly.

 

[Tobal]

We see it repeated over and over how other teams want to get Roy matched up on a WR. Instead of being the guy they are worrying about Roy is now the guy they pick on at times.

If you move him to LB in the nickle you again make him someone they have to account for. Roy williams is great facing the QB, when he turns his back he gets as lost as I would be.

Do you honeslty think moving Roy to LB in Passing situations would significantly hurt our pass defense?

I also feel like the coaching staff puts undo pressure on our safeties. The CB blitz against the Eagles will never leave my mind. Watkins picking up a WR from 20 yrds deep. That's just a damn rough position to put a rookie safety in.

 

[ZeroClub]

Yeah, prior to this year a ton of people on this messageboard said no way in the World Ellis could play LB in the 3-4. Couldn't and wouldn't happen.
Roy, from the looks of it right now, is the same size as many 4-3 LBs(235-240) and much bigger than at least one 3-4 LB, Donnie Edwards.
Roy is also pretty close in size to Kevin Burnett who is listed at 240.
The idea that Roy couldn't play LB is silly. The dude is a football player. He could adjust to the change pretty quickly, IMO.

Well said. You are on to something here.

 

[khiladi]

I also feel like the coaching staff puts undo pressure on our safeties. The CB blitz against the Eagles will never leave my mind. Watkins picking up a WR from 20 yrds deep. That's just a damn rough position to put a rookie safety in.

That is a tough play for any CB to play in... That was a match-up that Philly was dreaming of... As stated before, Parcells expects every player to be a superman to execute his schemes... That is why he always says, "the players dont execute"...

 

[TEK2000]

That is a tough play for any CB to play in... That was a match-up that Philly was dreaming of... As stated before, Parcells expects every player to be a superman to execute his schemes... That is why he always says, "the players dont execute"...

276 anti-Parcells posts and counting.

People would listen a lot more if you didn't make the same exact point (blame Parcells) in every single thread.

 

[Chuck 54]

So you're going to put five cornerbacks on the field in the nickel? We haven't even had five cornerbacks active for a game yet this season, so we'd have to de-activate a player at another position. And if we did put five cornerbacks in the secondary, we might gain something in deep coverage, but we'd drop in tackling on anything thrown underneath or on runs.

And if you meant put a cornerback and Keith Davis or Patrick Watkins at safety, we'd be better off with a cornerback and Roy back there. Unless or until Watkins improves, Roy is our best cover safety.

agreed 100%...unfortunately, Roy is also heads and shoulders above any other player on the roster at being an active force in the midrange drilling guys on the crossing routes, on the sideline, and providing faster run support, even blitzing. He's our best at everything except true DL and LB.

We have to keep him back to avoid giving up more easy TD's, but if we ever get Watkins ready or decide Glenn and Reeves/Jones could handle the CB and allow Henry to step back to safety in clear passing situations, Roy will make more big plays as an underneath guy than deep guy, imo.

 

[khiladi]

276 anti-Parcells posts and counting.

People would listen a lot more if you didn't make the same exact point (blame Parcells) in every single thread.

What's that saying?

"Pot calling the kettle black?"

As long as you jump on the get rid of TO, Zimmer, Roy Williams, bandwagon it's OK... I guess we can jump on our problem is 'free-safety' bandwagon, but when it comes to the 'god' Bill Parcells, it's a no no?

The fact of the matter is Pat Watkins was put in a bad position on those plays... That is a COACHING issue... if Bill Parcells adapts, I'll jump on his bandwagon... if Bill Parcells stops being so conservative and stops playing the cover-2 all the time because he is paranoid, I'll jump on his bandwagon...

But when he continually puts the problem on players saying it is execution, and when he puts it on the team, by saying he does not think they are this bad after a humiliating loss, and the week before, he's giving a championship speech after a win by a field-goal, than I'll ride him till I'm red...

 

[Chuck 54]

When you get one-on-one matchups between a safety and a WR, it is called a MIS-MATCH... this is what an offense wants on a deep ball...

the majority of the deep passes that are given away is because of coverage schemes... even the plays Watkins got beat on, they were blitzes where Watkins had man on man against a receiver... Philly knew it was coming... they got the matchup they wanted...

man to man with a safety isn't really man to man...the safety doesn't cover the guy for the first 15 yards...we're in a zone...CB covers under/safety comes over for the deep pass.

The play Davis missed on he was actually a bit late getting there on the corner route...a tough play for a safety, but one a good one has to make.

All safeties are man to man once the ball is in the air deep...they're supposed to get there and play the ball. The only alternative is man to man with the CB from the line of scrimmage and deep.

 

[TEK2000]

What's that saying?

"Pot calling the kettle black?"

As long as you jump on the get rid of TO, Zimmer, Roy Williams, bandwagon it's OK... I guess we can jump on our problem is 'free-safety' bandwagon, but when it comes to the 'god' Bill Parcells, it's a no no?

The fact of the matter is Pat Watkins was put in a bad position on those plays... That is a COACHING issue... if Bill Parcells adapts, I'll jump on his bandwagon... if Bill Parcells stops being so conservative and stops playing the cover-2 all the time because he is paranoid, I'll jump on his bandwagon...

But when he continually puts the problem on players saying it is execution, and when he puts it on the team, by saying he does not think they are this bad after a humiliating loss, and the week before, he's giving a championship speech after a win by a field-goal, than I'll ride him till I'm red...

I'm not on any bandwagon.

I didn't say don't criticize Bill Parcells.. all I said was it gets old when YOU individually spend EVERY post you make in every thread blaming Parcells for EVERYTHING.

Pat Watkins didn't give up any big plays in the NO game. What are you talking about?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

man to man with a safety isn't really man to man...the safety doesn't cover the guy for the first 15 yards...we're in a zone...CB covers under/safety comes over for the deep pass.

The play Davis missed on he was actually a bit late getting there on the corner route...a tough play for a safety, but one a good one has to make.

All safeties are man to man once the ball is in the air deep...they're supposed to get there and play the ball. The only alternative is man to man with the CB from the line of scrimmage and deep.

Or bump and run technique. Either way, your right, our safety play left much to be desired. Both Safeties.

 

[DallasDW00ds0n]

because Roy Williams is not Michael Lewis. hes actually a decent safety

 

[diehard2294]

Wow. This isnt getting old.

People. RW is NOT a LB. I repeat. RW is not a LB.

He would get killed by OL that block down to the 2nd level, period.

He has been a safety and will ALWAYS be a safety. This topis is getting really old.

Blame our defensive system for putting him in 1 on 1 situations against guys who run 4.2 40s.

He is a great safety but our coaching staff is putting him in situations that is unfair to 99% of any safety in the league.

Not many, if any SS can cover Devry Henderson 1 on 1. The guy runs a 4.0 40.

So once again. Stop suggesting RW turns into a LB. It WONT happen.

I agree with you that Roy isn't a LB for the reason you point out. However I dont buy into the fact that the system has put him in a bad position to cover a speed guy. He's not being asked to bump and run with him, he has space and has to realize if the WR gets within 2 yards of his body he is toast. So given the right technique,he most certainly can and should be able to cover a speed guy. Saying it's unfair to 99% of the safetys means they shouldn't have to even think about having the talent to cover him.

I am not a zimmer fan,but as much as the Roy to LB needs to stop,so does the excuses for his inability to play pass defense at a higher level. If he was great,he would be able to do it all. I like Roy but have come to accept his flaws

 

[khiladi]

I'm not on any bandwagon.

I didn't say don't criticize Bill Parcells.. all I said was it gets old when YOU individually spend EVERY post you make in every thread blaming Parcells for EVERYTHING.

Pat Watkins didn't give up any big plays in the NO game. What are you talking about?

I brought up Watkins because people are criticizing him that he is a poor safety... The play that really got the whole thing started about our poor safety play was the TD passes in Philly.. That was a big play for any safety to make... You get the safety on the WR one-on-one on a corner blitz, and he got beat... That happens a lot in the NFL... it is a mis-match that coaches take advantage of... the problem is not necessarily our safeties, so much it's coaching... you can't keep saying 'the players don't execute'... every single quarterback is going to throw the ball when they see this coverage, because it is the coverage they want...

I'm not disputing that Keith Davis doesn't suck... I am saying, even if we get a good safety, which I think Pat Watkins is and he should be in by now anyways, it still isn't going to rectify our defense... we still are gonna suffer because of our approach on defense.. "bend-don't-break"... we play cover 2 to protect against the long ball... it is the cover 2 that allows opposing teams to get significant time of possession by chipping away yardage... it is all scheming... our defense is good in the red-zone, because of the spacing... that is why teams don't score well on us from the red-zone...

we are getting beat deep because of 'mis-matches', coupled by the fact that we can't get any pass rush.. it is the 'cover 2' that had Roy's mind on the screen pass, when the WR broke for a long TD pass when Henry left the receiver for the zone..


teams are getting the matches they want, and the reason for this is because the coaches are not putting our players in to make plays... the conservative approach is the STAPLE of a Bill Parcells defense... Don't you ever wonder why Zimmer use to play ana attack style defense before Bill Parcels came, to try and compensate for the weaknesses in coverage? now we are doing what is tantamount to a 180 degree flip....

 

[TEK2000]

I'm not totally disagreeing with you on your points. You make some very valid points. It just got old with the Parcells bashing with every post. Your above post is a VERY GOOD post and spot on with many points.

We've been rolling "pass rush specialists" through Mike Zimmer as long as he has been here. Is it perhaps a problem with scheme, technique, player development that might have always been the issue rather than the players?

 

[demdcowboys#1]

Am i the only one sick of all these damn Roy to LB threads?

 

[EPL0c0]

Williams at LB in the nickle could be a good move since Parrish was brought in.
RW isn't big enough to play LB in the base 3-4, but on obvious passing downs, I think it would be a good idea. Bill Bates played nickle LB, I'm sure Roy Williams could. He isn't a great cover safety, but he would be a great cover linebacker.

if he dropped back into coverage, it'd likely be against a TE or 3rd/4th WR.

Could be something to at least give a shot...what's the worse that could happen, he gets burned for a TD? oops that's never happened before

 

[smarta5150]

I agree with you that Roy isn't a LB for the reason you point out. However I dont buy into the fact that the system has put him in a bad position to cover a speed guy. He's not being asked to bump and run with him, he has space and has to realize if the WR gets within 2 yards of his body he is toast. So given the right technique,he most certainly can and should be able to cover a speed guy. Saying it's unfair to 99% of the safetys means they shouldn't have to even think about having the talent to cover him.

I am not a zimmer fan,but as much as the Roy to LB needs to stop,so does the excuses for his inability to play pass defense at a higher level. If he was great,he would be able to do it all. I like Roy but have come to accept his flaws

I agree with you.

I never called RW "great."

People, Dallas fans have hyped him up to be SUPERMAN.

I have also accepted his flaws.

This is why I said the coaches also need to realize he is not superman and try to avoid getting him in unfavorable match ups.

I dont mind threads on RW and what not but converting him to LB, even just on nickel is getting way old and far fetched.

It wont happen. End of story.

 

[smarta5150]

Am i the only one sick of all these damn Roy to LB threads?

I feel your pain.

:horse:

 

[Fernando Fernandez]

I also posted this on another board, but I wanted your opinion.

Look, we all know that Roy is a monster against the run, but very below average in pass coverage. Why doesn't BP put him at LB in the nickel, push Henry over as the FS, Davis or Parrish at SS, and put one of the backup corners at RCB? The results couldn't be any worse than they are right now, could they?

I am a big Roy Williams fan, but he is giving up touchdowns every game. Davis is just as bad. I would rather have Watkins, personally. At least he is a young guy with upside.

TWO WORDS: Abram ELAM