WSJ: Verdict: Samsung Violated Apple Patents

theogt

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kmd24;4684391 said:
The patent office is supposed to do a substantive review of applications to determine whether inventions are novel and inventive whether the invention is in an excluded area, and whether the application complies with patent law.

Things that are obvious and non-inventive shouldn't be granted patents. That is basically the charter of the USPTO.

To force these things to be decided in court turns patents into weapons that can be used to extort those who can't afford to defend themselves (e.g., the many Lodsys suits from about a year ago).
They do a substantive review, yes. And it can be contentious, requiring significant back and forth between the investors' counsel and the gov't. My point was that there can never be a full vetting without truly adversarial posturing, however.

With any system there are going to be potential abuses. The goal is not to find the perfect system, but the best system.
 

masomenos

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The damages award could conceivably go north of $3 billion, once Judge Koh takes willfulness into account.

Taking injunction-fueled losses and brand damage into account, the results of this trial could cost Samaung $5 billion or more in penalties and lost profits.
 

kmd24

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theogt;4684507 said:
They do a substantive review, yes.

My point is that the patent office is not doing a substantive review if they are awarding patents to obvious implementations of prior art. Then you get results like this case, where a jury of laymen rush through deliberations.

groklaw doesn't think the ruling will stand based on the fact that the jury apparently didn't even read the instructions that were presented to them.
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390
 

theogt

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kmd24;4684784 said:
My point is that the patent office is not doing a substantive review if they are awarding patents to obvious implementations of prior art. Then you get results like this case, where a jury of laymen rush through deliberations.

groklaw doesn't think the ruling will stand based on the fact that the jury apparently didn't even read the instructions that were presented to them.
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2012082510525390
It won't get overturned for the inconsistencies referenced in that link. They were very minor and obviously clerical mistakes (that were fixed prior to the verdict being entered).
 

YosemiteSam

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Samsung obviously did some copying, but what went down here from both the judge and the jury is almost unbelievable. Judge Lucy Koh has put herself in a precarious situation in how she handled this trial. Basically tying Samsungs hands early on while not doing the same to Apple when Apple was clearly in more error. To her credit, she did start trying to rectify the situation towards the end, but the damage was already done.

Judge Lucy Koh has basically gave her very young career a black eye. Not only that, it gets worse when the trial was handed over to the jurors. The jurors return a verdict in three days on a trial so complicated that lawyers have said that it would take them more than three days to comprehend the rules they were given. That should have immediately sounded an alarm for the judge. That doesn't even touch on the fact that the verdict was so inconsistent that they awarded Apple damages to things they said Samsung didn't infringe on. This screams that the jurors were just rushing to get through this.

Then we have the jury foreman who basically tainted the jury all by himself. He told the jury that they didn't need to read these rules, that he would explain to them what they needed to do. (wow) Then went on to tell them that "prior art" was basically meaningless and they discarded the entire notion when in fact prior art weights heavily on the validity of the case!

The jury foreman then goes on to hang himself by making a public statement saying he wanted to punish Samsung when the rules they were to follow strictly state they are not to punish the infringer, but to compensate the patent holder.

Judge Lucy Koh would be smart to throw the entire verdict out in light of not only her error, but what has occurred with the jury. If she doesn't, there is almost no doubt that an appeals court will. If that happens, Judge Lucy Koh will then have two black eyes on her career.
 

theogt

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Yay for amateur lawyering. Did you stay at a holiday inn express last night top?
 

CowboysFan02

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Sam I Am;4687442 said:
Samsung obviously did some copying, but what went down here from both the judge and the jury is almost unbelievable. Judge Lucy Koh has put herself in a precarious situation in how she handled this trial. Basically tying Samsungs hands early on while not doing the same to Apple when Apple was clearly in more error. To her credit, she did start trying to rectify the situation towards the end, but the damage was already done.

Judge Lucy Koh has basically gave her very young career a black eye. Not only that, it gets worse when the trial was handed over to the jurors. The jurors return a verdict in three days on a trial so complicated that lawyers have said that it would take them more than three days to comprehend the rules they were given. That should have immediately sounded an alarm for the judge. That doesn't even touch on the fact that the verdict was so inconsistent that they awarded Apple damages to things they said Samsung didn't infringe on. This screams that the jurors were just rushing to get through this.

Then we have the jury foreman who basically tainted the jury all by himself. He told the jury that they didn't need to read these rules, that he would explain to them what they needed to do. (wow) Then went on to tell them that "prior art" was basically meaningless and they discarded the entire notion when in fact prior art weights heavily on the validity of the case!

The jury foreman then goes on to hang himself by making a public statement saying he wanted to punish Samsung when the rules they were to follow strictly state they are not to punish the infringer, but to compensate the patent holder.

Judge Lucy Koh would be smart to throw the entire verdict out in light of not only her error, but what has occurred with the jury. If she doesn't, there is almost no doubt that an appeals court will. If that happens, Judge Lucy Koh will then have two black eyes on her career.

I agree, and to me trials such as this should NEVER be in the hands of a jury. Everything about this trial is much to complicated for a layperson to understand. IF it must be a jury, the jury should consist of people who have a strong technical and/or legal background such as programmers, computer engineers and lawyers.
 

theogt

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Sam I Am;4687442 said:
Then we have the jury foreman who basically tainted the jury all by himself. He told the jury that they didn't need to read these rules, that he would explain to them what they needed to do. (wow) Then went on to tell them that "prior art" was basically meaningless and they discarded the entire notion when in fact prior art weights heavily on the validity of the case!

The jury foreman then goes on to hang himself by making a public statement saying he wanted to punish Samsung when the rules they were to follow strictly state they are not to punish the infringer, but to compensate the patent holder.
None of this is true, by the way.
 

YosemiteSam

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CowboysFan02;4687595 said:
I agree, and to me trials such as this should NEVER be in the hands of a jury. Everything about this trial is much to complicated for a layperson to understand. IF it must be a jury, the jury should consist of people who have a strong technical and/or legal background such as programmers, computer engineers and lawyers.

I and it seems several intellectual property law professors agree with you.

The following is a quote from a Paul Elias AP article.

==============================

Increasingly these highly complex disputes are being decided by juries, rather than judges, and the juries tend to issue more generous awards for patent violations.

That has companies on the receiving end of successful patent infringement lawsuits crying foul and calling for reform in the patent system, but it also has some legal experts questioning whether ordinary citizens should be rendering verdicts and fixing damages in such high stakes, highly technical cases.

"That's a great question ... and it's the subject of a fair amount of current debate," said Notre Dame University law professor Mark McKenna....

"This case is unmanageable for a jury," Robin Feldman, an intellectual property professor at the University of California Hastings Law School, said before the verdict. "There are more than 100 pages of jury instructions. I don't give that much reading to my law students. They can't possible digest it."

"The trial is evidence of a patent system that is out of control," Feldman said. "No matter what happens in this trial, I think people will need to step back and ask whether we've gone too far in the intellectual property system."
 

ethiostar

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http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/dail...n-good-apple-bad-samsung-lousy-124403804.html

The monetary damages here, though large, are almost irrelevant....More important is the precedent that this case sets, which is that gadget companies can successfully bring and win cases based on what might be described as "feature patents." One of the claims Apple made, for example, was that Samsung had infringed on an Apple patent that covered a "rectangular" phone. Given that all smartphones are rectangular, this patent and others like it could have a far-reaching impact.

Are you kidding me?

Does this mean everybody else is going to have to start manufacturing phones in the shape of a stop sign?
 

trickblue

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Sam I Am;4689123 said:
Haven't you seen Apple's original rectangle iBrick phone? :muttley:

https://lh3.***BROKEN***/-p4JgMEAz-K0/UDurBwJoPQI/AAAAAAAACmw/UBBzNebog9o/s400/applesquare.png

What an awful photoshop...

Obviously done on a pc... :D
 

YosemiteSam

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trickblue;4689287 said:
What an awful photoshop...

Obviously done on a pc... :D

It was Gimp you fool! :mad:

btw, I was lucky I figured out how to alter the Apple logo to look like it was laying down. When I opened Gimp I had no idea. :laugh2:

The only thing obvious about it is that I'm an unskilled graphical artist. :)
 

trickblue

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Sam I Am;4689311 said:
It was Gimp you fool! :mad:

btw, I was lucky I figured out how to alter the Apple logo to look like it was laying down. When I opened Gimp I had no idea. :laugh2:

The only thing obvious about it is that I'm an unskilled graphical artist. :)

I just started using Gimp, so I woulda had trouble on that one too...

I've used Photoshop/Paintshop Pro for over 15 years...
 

kmd24

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LOL. The jury foreman convinced the other jurors none of the patents were prior art because

The software on the Apple side could not be placed into the processor on the prior art and vice versa. That means they are not interchangeable. That changed everything right there.

As the link states,
Basically, he's admitting that he doesn't understand how prior art works. The fact that the software wouldn't run on the same processor is meaningless. In fact, as Groklaw notes, the jury instructions (which Hogan again insists the jury read) note that to find prior art, you just have to show that the invention has already been done or even explained somewhere else. That's got nothing to do with whether or not it can run on the same processor.
 

SaltwaterServr

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CanadianCowboysFan;4697679 said:
In a Japanese court, Samsung was found not to have copied anything.

IIRC, in the UK as well.

I found it perplexing that the US judge wouldn't allow Samsung to admit into evidence prior designs from other manufacturer's the exhibited Apple's supposed original design features years before the iPhone and iPad ever existed.

Hell, NYC has shown that image somewhere on here before, and it's been noted online as well.
 

Lodeus

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Too late to patent a triangle shaped tablet or phone?

Office-Pyramid-tablet.jpg
 

theogt

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kmd24;4697670 said:
LOL. The jury foreman convinced the other jurors none of the patents were prior art because



As the link states,
Can you explain what he was talking about? Was there a device that existed before the Apple patent that did the same thing?
 
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