Should the Cowboys have gone for 2 on the 1st or 2nd TD?

Diehardblues

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When McCarthy was first hired he said a differentiator would be his use of analytics and more importantly the application of towards actual game decisions. So yeah there were a bunch of threads about it. This decision is most obvious example of what that is going to look like.
I missed those threads. But after our first two games I’m not impressed with this at all. It appears a higher risk than reward thus far. So much so I’ve seen the local media calling him Riverboat Mike.
 

LovinItAll

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The attempt has no value if it’s not successful. My hunch is if it was attempted more often it would be less successful. Part of its success rate is the element of surprise. If it became more common place probably lower percentage of success. The percentage has already dropped moving the LOS scrimmage back a yard since new rules were implemented.

As it stands now I’m not disputing the math . I just believe there’s many more intangible factors that contribute to the results. The math is simply based on the current results. And it’s based on playing to win not tying or extending the game. It’s a higher risk vs reward scenario which could effect wins and losses.

The Conventional wisdom and math support attempting the 1 point conversion is more reliable . Much more as a matter of fact. And what happens is if you miss a couple 2 point conversions in a game it alters your strategy. Could cost you the game. And why playing it safe or closer to the vest will continue to dominate football decisions.

That's the point. What you think (or what I think) doesn't matter. The conventional wisdom isn't more reliable...the math says it isn't. Yes, 96% of EPs are successful, but 2 point conversions only have to be successful ~48% of the time to generate more average points.

Look, the argument you're making is not based on analytics. It's based on your 'eye' or emotion or experience or whatever. Again, this is EXACTLY the argument put forth when baseball was transitioning to analytics. Take the 'hunch' out of it. That's the point.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just stating the facts as of today, the 2 point conversion is worth more average points per attempt than an EP. If the EP was still kicked from closer range, this wouldn't be true, but it's isn't.

Also, the element of surprise? If you mean that the defense doesn't know what play will be called, okay. Other than that, 2 point conversions work ~ 50% of the time. That makes them worth more than EPs that work 97% of the time.

There will be a team that stops kicking EPs except when analytics says they should. It will seem unconventional because it will be unconventional. It will also be mathematically correct. The only reason it's taking as long as it has is because football seasons are so short, so the large sample sizes take longer to accumulate than they do in baseball and basketball.

Time will tell. Any discussion until then will be rooted in emotion and not math.
 

JD_KaPow

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The reality is that every team should go for 2 points after every TD, as the attempt is worth .98 points, while an EP is worth just .96 points per attempt.
That’s not accurate. The expected value matters, sure, but so does the variance. There are perfectly valid reasons to prefer the lower-variance strategy. In particular, if you believe you are better than your opponent, meaning that you will score more points per drive on average than they will, you prefer a low-variance strategy that doesn't maximize your expected points but minimizes the downside. If you are worse than your opponent, you should adopt higher-variance strategies.

For extra points, the difference in expected points is minuscule while the difference in variance is huge. After three TDs, the team that always goes for 2 will have scored 2.88 extra points while the xp team will have 2.82. But the chance of getting zero extra points is around 13% for the one team and essentially 0% for the other.

None of this has anything to do with what happened Sunday, where there was no maximal or minimal risk option: the situation dictated a single 2-pointer be tried.
 

LovinItAll

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That’s not accurate. The expected value matters, sure, but so does the variance. There are perfectly valid reasons to prefer the lower-variance strategy. In particular, if you believe you are better than your opponent, meaning that you will score more points per drive on average than they will, you prefer a low-variance strategy that doesn't maximize your expected points but minimizes the downside. If you are worse than your opponent, you should adopt higher-variance strategies.

For extra points, the difference in expected points is minuscule while the difference in variance is huge. After three TDs, the team that always goes for 2 will have scored 2.88 extra points while the xp team will have 2.82. But the chance of getting zero extra points is around 13% for the one team and essentially 0% for the other.

None of this has anything to do with what happened Sunday, where there was no maximal or minimal risk option: the situation dictated a single 2-pointer be tried.

If you want to take about variance, we can, but you're just moving further into proving the analytical approach is correct. As I said, there will be situations where the EP is the better play based on variance, but those situations will prove to be the outliers rather than the common play due to the +EV of the 2 point conversion.
 

pansophy

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That’s not accurate. The expected value matters, sure, but so does the variance. There are perfectly valid reasons to prefer the lower-variance strategy. In particular, if you believe you are better than your opponent, meaning that you will score more points per drive on average than they will, you prefer a low-variance strategy that doesn't maximize your expected points but minimizes the downside. If you are worse than your opponent, you should adopt higher-variance strategies.

For extra points, the difference in expected points is minuscule while the difference in variance is huge. After three TDs, the team that always goes for 2 will have scored 2.88 extra points while the xp team will have 2.82. But the chance of getting zero extra points is around 13% for the one team and essentially 0% for the other.

None of this has anything to do with what happened Sunday, where there was no maximal or minimal risk option: the situation dictated a single 2-pointer be tried.
It’s also worth noting that EP is on average over a season. So if one took a 2pt chance every time all year, the team probably scores more points for the season but that doesn’t mean they win more games. This ties into McCarthy’s point about application. That point chart posted earlier showing which conversion type to try based on point differential applies these ideas to the game situation.
 

JD_KaPow

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If you want to take about variance, we can, but you're just moving further into proving the analytical approach is correct. As I said, there will be situations where the EP is the better play based on variance, but those situations will prove to be the outliers rather than the common play due to the +EV of the 2 point conversion.
I don't think those cases are outliers at all. There's a value to certainty.

First of all, let's agree on what we're talking about. From 2017 to 2019, the success rate on two-pointers was 48.5%. The success rate on extra points was 94.0%. I'm going to assume that all the two-pointers were mandatory (no choice to be made) and all the 1-pointers were optional. This is clearly off a bit, because sometimes a one-pointer is clearly the better bet (you're down 6 and you score a last-second TD) and sometimes teams take the optional two-pointer (but usually after a penalty places it at the one-yard-line instead of the two, which changes the odds). Can't be off much though, since those effects would cut against each other.

The average team attempted 37.3 extra points and 3.4 two-pointers in a season. Those 37.3 extra point attempts translated into 35.1 points. Convert those to two-pointers and those teams could have expected to score 36.1 points.

So that's what we're talking about. If you went for two instead of kicking the XP every single time, you would expect to score one more point over the entire season. There's simply no way that's more important to your decision-making than the huge increase in variance and uncertainty you'd be accepting if you adopted that strategy.

That doesn't mean nobody should do it, or teams shouldn't go for 2 more often. Bad teams, in particular, should embrace variance. If you assess that the odds are in your favor because of the matchup of your short-yardage offense vs. their short-yardage defense, sure. But in general, because you don't know how the game will play out, you're probably better off with the lower-variance play until you have more information later in the game.
 

CarolinaFathead

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Yes that’s true. It’s not an absolute that 2 point attempts should be done every time. That’s just not the case. It all boils down to figuring out probability and EP value in relation to time and score and that varies wildly.

However, and this is obvious, if for some reason there is a significant shift towards 2 point attempts being converted more frequently than 48%, then the math becomes much more favorable. This would seem to be most plausible for a particular team that believes they can significantly shift the 2 point conversion rate in a positive direction. I just personally find that data would likely be suspect because it would be based on a small sample size. It is hard to trust that. It would mostly be a subjective belief versus an analytical truth.

We have a fairly large sample size of 2 point conversion data since 1994. 48% is probably the true mean and it’s probably not going to shift much as time goes forward which means current probability charts available to coaches are spot on and should be followed.
 
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JD_KaPow

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Yes that’s true. It’s not an absolute that 2 point attempts should be done every time. That’s just not the case. It all boils down to figuring out probability and EP value in relation to time and score and that varies wildly.

However, and this is obvious, if for some reason there is a significant shift towards 2 point attempts being converted more frequently than 48%, then the math becomes much more favorable. This would seem to be most plausible for a particular team that believes they can significantly shift the 2 point conversion rate in a positive direction. I just personally find that data would likely be suspect because it would be based on a small sample size. It hard to trust that. It would mostly be a subjective belief versus an analytical truth.

We have a fairly large sample size of 2 point conversion data since 1994. 48% is probably the true mean and it’s probably not going to shift much as time goes forward which means current probability charts available to coaches are spot on and should be followed.
Also remember that, barring more rule changes, the relentless improvement of kicking will increase that XP success rate. Personally, I think it's way past time to move the goal posts closer together. I don't want to see FGs on 4th-and-6 from the opponent's 37. I want to see football plays.
 

HungryLion

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Also remember that, barring more rule changes, the relentless improvement of kicking will increase that XP success rate. Personally, I think it's way past time to move the goal posts closer together. I don't want to see FGs on 4th-and-6 from the opponent's 37. I want to see football plays.


I would prefer they remove the XP kick altogether. Either let the team take the 1 point. Or choose to go for 2.

the xfl’s system wasn’t bad either.
 

JD_KaPow

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I would prefer they remove the XP kick altogether. Either let the team take the 1 point. Or choose to go for 2.

the xfl’s system wasn’t bad either.
Yeah, I agree with that. I was thinking more about FGs with the goal-post thing.

I like framing it as: the TD is a 7-point score, plus you get the option to gamble a point on a play from scrimmage. Score and you get the 8th point. Fail and you lose the 7th point and drop back to 6. Same in the end as what you wrote, just a different way of describing it.
 

HungryLion

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Yeah, I agree with that. I was thinking more about FGs with the goal-post thing.

I like framing it as: the TD is a 7-point score, plus you get the option to gamble a point on a play from scrimmage. Score and you get the 8th point. Fail and you lose the 7th point and drop back to 6. Same in the end as what you wrote, just a different way of describing it.


I think they should do it. I want kickers to affect the game less than they already do. Making XP’s even more reliant on kicked performance is not something I’m interested in. It’s the second most boring play in football behind. The kickoff which is now the most boring due to rule changes.
 

Chuck 54

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I would have kicked the extra point, but that’s the more traditional thought process. After hearing McCarthy talk about many long conversations about it, assuming he meant in his analytic sessions last year, they absolutely did the right thing, but not because it is always right. Due to the limited time on the clock, the fact we Needed to score quickly, and recover the onsides kick, I still think many would have gone for it earlier.

Bottom line for me is
  1. The coach had thought the situation through and had a belief system before the situation arose, so even if we lost the game, I support it.
  2. If the game is on the line, and it was since recovering an onsides kick after another score was unlikely, then I’m frustrated that we would put all our eggs in the one basket, hoping a misdirection run play would work. Whether the ball is in DAK’s, Zeke’s or someone else’s hands, I want to see a run/pass option ALWAYS! It’s the old, game is on the line, at least be able to toss the ball up in the end zone and give someone a chance to come down with it.
 

Bullflop

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Who cares -- we won the game . . . in the end, that's all that matters, right? 2 points here or 2 points there -- it's 2 points, either way.:popcorn:
 

pansophy

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I would have kicked the extra point, but that’s the more traditional thought process. After hearing McCarthy talk about many long conversations about it, assuming he meant in his analytic sessions last year, they absolutely did the right thing, but not because it is always right. Due to the limited time on the clock, the fact we Needed to score quickly, and recover the onsides kick, I still think many would have gone for it earlier.

Bottom line for me is
  1. The coach had thought the situation through and had a belief system before the situation arose, so even if we lost the game, I support it.
  2. If the game is on the line, and it was since recovering an onsides kick after another score was unlikely, then I’m frustrated that we would put all our eggs in the one basket, hoping a misdirection run play would work. Whether the ball is in DAK’s, Zeke’s or someone else’s hands, I want to see a run/pass option ALWAYS! It’s the old, game is on the line, at least be able to toss the ball up in the end zone and give someone a chance to come down with it.
I mean that’s a more interesting conversation — the 2pt conversion play call was pretty blah for a make or break play.
 

JD_KaPow

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Who cares -- we won the game . . . in the end, that's all that matters, right? :grin:
Sure, if you're never going to play another game again. Otherwise, you discuss things that have happened in the past to try to learn stuff so you can be smarter in the future.
 

Bullflop

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Sure, if you're never going to play another game again. Otherwise, you discuss things that have happened in the past to try to learn stuff so you can be smarter in the future.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz. If you already know what you need to know, there's no need for that. ;)
 

jaythecowboy

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I mean that’s a more interesting conversation — the 2pt conversion play call was pretty blah for a make or break play.

I hated that call. Zeke shouldn't be going east/west like that. Neither should Dak for that matter. He's not Lamar Jackson.
 

LovinItAll

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I don't think those cases are outliers at all. There's a value to certainty.

First of all, let's agree on what we're talking about. From 2017 to 2019, the success rate on two-pointers was 48.5%. The success rate on extra points was 94.0%. I'm going to assume that all the two-pointers were mandatory (no choice to be made) and all the 1-pointers were optional. This is clearly off a bit, because sometimes a one-pointer is clearly the better bet (you're down 6 and you score a last-second TD) and sometimes teams take the optional two-pointer (but usually after a penalty places it at the one-yard-line instead of the two, which changes the odds). Can't be off much though, since those effects would cut against each other.

The average team attempted 37.3 extra points and 3.4 two-pointers in a season. Those 37.3 extra point attempts translated into 35.1 points. Convert those to two-pointers and those teams could have expected to score 36.1 points.

So that's what we're talking about. If you went for two instead of kicking the XP every single time, you would expect to score one more point over the entire season. There's simply no way that's more important to your decision-making than the huge increase in variance and uncertainty you'd be accepting if you adopted that strategy.

That doesn't mean nobody should do it, or teams shouldn't go for 2 more often. Bad teams, in particular, should embrace variance. If you assess that the odds are in your favor because of the matchup of your short-yardage offense vs. their short-yardage defense, sure. But in general, because you don't know how the game will play out, you're probably better off with the lower-variance play until you have more information later in the game.

Let's move out of the realm of football and into other games. Some, like poker, are driven almost completely by math and analytics:

- In poker, the play (check, bet/raise, fold) that has the highest EV is always the right play. It doesn't matter whether one wins the hand or not. Nobody will ever argue the logic of making the play that has the highest EV (setting aside some leveling strategy).

- In basketball, we're seeing the evolution of analytics within the game as more teams understand the true value of the 3 point shot.

- Baseball is now driven by analytics league wide. Are there still managers and front offices that will pursue strategies that are not +EV when compared to analytics? Yes, but they are becoming further and further apart. Managers that don't embrace analytics are dinosaurs now.

Back to football: Our minds are ingrained with what the 'right' play is based on a lifetime of watching the sport without regard for analytics. Look no further than our win Sunday.

- Though there is NO QUESTION that MM made the right call going for 2 when he did, there are people that will argue the point based on their life's experience watching the game and, as a fan, their 'suspense' emotion (I guess that's how one would characterize that).

Another example: You said, 'You're down by 6 and score a TD as time expires. Clearly the 1 point play is the better bet.' But is it? I don't know the answer, but I guarantee there's an analytic that says whether it is or isn't. Because we desire the comfort of less variance (more certainty in the outcome) does not mean that it's the best decision, just the more comfortable one.

While your example of points scored over a season may be accurate, it will begin to change as more coaches embrace analytics. There is one thing that is certain: Over the long run, converting 48.5% of 2-point plays is 'more valuable' (higher EV) than converting 94% of 1 point plays. Over 100 attempts, one would score 97 2-point attempt points versus 94 1-point attempt points. Is there a higher variance with the 2 point play? Of course, but that's why analytics exists, to measure the result over a large sample size.

I'm not going nor am I trying to change minds. People will think what they will, but math always wins in the long term.

Really, I just want my team to win.
 
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