Successful teams are not afraid to be unconventional

[BleedSilverandBlue]

Again, your uneducated opinion.

I am sorry, but anyone who has ever played a down of middle school football can tell that Jaylon Smith and LVE are not fundamentally sound NFL linebackers. Superior athleticism and size may have bailed them out at lower levels but it simply does not work in the NFL. Examples of poor technique that can be observed on most plays:

#1) Over running the ball carrier. Linebackers are taught to play one step behind the ball carrier as they track him behind the line. This way it eliminates the possibility of being burned badly on the cutback. You also fit cleanly with the other linebacker who is being run at, preventing huge holes from forming. Watch either of our "star" duo and they blow this consistently.

#2) Play recognition. Linebackers typically get their reads from the behavior of the offensive line. If they fire out aggressively, run. If they punch and setup in pass protection, sink to your zone. Observing the RB can also give you cues. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched on LBs sink to a 10 yard drop as a RB obviously is setting up in the flat to catch a screen. We have been consistently horrid against the screen and our LB play is a large part of this. Any high school coach would rip his players a new one for the style of play our guys put out there every week.

#3) Shed blocks. This is something that can be coached and sometimes young NFL LBs struggle with it due to the size of NFL blockers. If our guys were in their first year I would not be as worried, but they are entering their 4th and 5th seasons still struggling to get off blockers. If you can't get off blocks, you oftentimes can make the tackle at 5-6 yards downfield, but you are never going to be in a position to stop the back for a short-no gain.

In the end, anyone who has an intermediate knowledge of the linebacker position would tell you immediately that ours lack discipline in the fundamentals. Making a ton of tackles 5, 6, 7 yards behind the LOS might look good on paper but our guys simply do not pass the eye test.

I would also like to add that our DL is also responsible for our LB play to some extent. It is very hard to make tackles when your line is getting bulldozed into you and this happened quite a bit last year. I think that Jaylon and LVE are not as bad as they looked the last year or two, but I certainly do not expect them to be pro bowl caliber players again. With improved line play, a return to the 4-3 from the 3-4, and a full offseason I think they can return to being average-above average linebackers.

 

[RonnieT24]

I don't know if it is dak or the scheme, but if he can figure out the bailout to the rb play that Brady uses so often, and plays in the pocket, he can be the top qb in the league. Dak is smart and can read defense, he is built to take sacks or hits in the pocket and not get injured. And they should qb run more on 4th and 1 with dak

I wish he was a few inches taller, but besides that, I have no complaints. With these weapons he should be top of the league. He doesn't need to run much

I think there are several factors which will lead to Dak running less. One is I think he is maturing on the mental side of the game and will see the field and read defenses better . With respect to your previous comment about starting fast. As I have said many times, that problem didn't show up until they handed the play calling duties to Kellen Moore. I think Moore uses the first 12-15 plays to feel the defense out rather than trying to punch it into the end zone and take advantage of known favorable matchups. Why else would it take us a quarter or more to figure out that Ronald Darby can't cover Amari Cooper? Did we really not know that from film study during the week? I see countless examples of Moore failing to get us off to a fast start with these "setup plays" trying to see what the defense is doing rather than plays designed to move the damn ball. I think we get that fixed this year. If the first couple of games start out with the same malaise early I fully expect McCarthy to take over play calling duties. This team has too many weapons to come away empty handed on so man early drives.

 

[dsturgeon]

This is a false absolute. There are dozens of examples of guys who were good runners early in their careers who learned to play better from the pocket as they got older. Elway, Young, Gannon, Do you remember Theisman returning punts early in his career. Aaron Rodgers was one of the best athletes ever to play the position.. Russell Wilson is still a great athlete. Both are among the smartest players in the game. I just wish people would quit acting as if being a good athlete makes a QB dumb. It's a stupid narrative that needs to die. The fact of the matter is nearly all QBs run too much when they first come into the league because NFL defenses confuse the hell out of them and they would rather run for a few yards than risk throwing a pick six to the linebacker lurking just out his line of sight. As they progress in the league the game slows down, they see the field better and they run less. It's not rocket surgery.. However having that ability to go get a first down at any point in the game is a nice weapon to have in your back pocket.

Except for rodgers all those guys you listed are not current qbs. You can make examples for any style of qb.

There seems to be a correlation with qb's who are "athletes" not being very good in the pocket. As in, they cant shift around and avoid sacks, while keeping their eyes downfield and making the play.

Wilson has to move around because he is too short to play in the pocket. He is smart and they developed a scheme he excels in.

I think their is more longevity in pocket passers, and long term success. Athlete qb's are fun to watch, but there is an injury risk. I never implied they were dumb, but most lack the ability to read the defense, otherwise they would stay in the pocket more

 

[RonnieT24]

Except for rodgers all those guys you listed are not current qbs. You can make examples for any style of qb.

There seems to be a correlation with qb's who are "athletes" not being very good in the pocket. As in, they cant shift around and avoid sacks, while keeping their eyes downfield and making the play.

Wilson has to move around because he is too short to play in the pocket. He is smart and they developed a scheme he excels in.

I think their is more longevity in pocket passers, and long term success. Athlete qb's are fun to watch, but there is an injury risk. I never implied they were dumb, but most lack the ability to read the defense, otherwise they would stay in the pocket more

Umm.. saying they can't read defenses IS implying they are dumb. It's football not quantum physics. NFL defenses are complex and there is a nontrivial amount of mental capacity required to decipher what the defense is doing and how the called route options fit. The reason playing QB in the NFL is so difficult is because NFL offenses no longer line up and run a set of routes that get called in the huddle. Virtually every route is predicated on what the receiver sees from the defense. Which means not only does the QB have to see it but so does the receiver. Sometimes dumb receivers make QBs look dumb. I think Dak is a smart cookie.. He managed to get himself two degrees while in college. Even at a public school that is no mean feat. I think he has seen the field incrementally better every year he has been in the league. Peyton Manning threw 28 INTs his first season in the league.. Was that because he was "not very good in the pocket?" Could it be that he, just like every other QB who has ever come into the NFL had to learn how to play the NFL game? QBs coming out of college now have a huge advantage because so many NFL teams are adopting the college style offenses. So there is considerably less of an adjustment than there was even 20 years ago. But there's still an adjustment. For better or for worse Dak did NOT go to one of those teams using a college style offense so he had to make the turn honestly. Ironically since Moore has taken over the Cowboys HAVE looked more like that college style .. but it absolutely stinks in the red zone IMHO. I'm excited to see what year three of the Dak/Moore combination looks like. I think they will again be among the best offenses in the league but they absolutely HAVE to solve the slow start thing. If they do that and allow the defense to play from ahead for a change I think we're gonna like the results.. Time will tell.

 

[Oz-of-Cowboy-Country]

I am not sold on the dual threat qb's. I don't think they are worth it

What it costs to pay, and a lot of times draft a qb, and they have a higher injury risk. Not to mention a lot of them can not play from the pocket and do not read defenses well.

Time will tell, but I still prefer a tall qb, who stands in the pocket, can read defense well, and takes sacks more than he scrambles

Good ones are hard to find either way

Yeah, dual threat QB's are sooooo good that's why Brady keeps winning rings.

As far as the OP's suggestion, there are certain positions that don't need to be drafted in the first three rounds. DT's and RB's come to mind. So Dallas doesn't need to constantly recycle players for picks. They just need to learn what positions to pay.

 

[EST_1986]

The Cowboys have an established way of doing business. They build the team through the draft and they try to keep their own guys in FA. You can complain and cry about it all you want but it doesn't seem that strategy is changing anytime soon. They are not a FO that spends a lot in FA.

Wouldn't be an issue if it worked, theyre leaving out a major component of improving a roster and it sucks

 

[RonnieT24]

Yeah, dual threat QB's are sooooo good that's why Brady keeps winning rings.

As far as the OP's suggestion, there are certain positions that don't need to be drafted in the first three rounds. DT's and RB's come to mind. So Dallas doesn't need to constantly recycle players for picks. They just need to learn what positions to pay.

I don't think Brady has ever won a ring with a defense that was ranked outside the top 10 in scoring defense.. He's had #1 two times, #2 once a #6 a #7 and a #8. Maybe the guys on the other side of the ball should get some credit.. ... just sayin.. I'm guessing there is a pretty good list of QBs (both athletic and not athletic) who can win rings with a top 5 defense backing them up. Compare that to Rodgers who has only had a top 10 scoring defense three times in his career.. never had #1 but did win the Super Bowl the one time he had a top 5 defense in 2010.. Imagine that? Brady played for maybe the best defensive mind of all time and then hand picked a top 5 defense to join up with this year. Kudos to him for being smart about where he went.. but let's not get carried away.

 

[blueblood70]

Ummmmmm, Isn't the point of a forum to have discussions related to the team? None of the things we talk about here matter at all, but it is still a fun way to pass the offseason. Chill out with your red size 30 font big guy .

not fun with nothing but BS narratives and negativity NO, BTW its 7 font it as big as they allow, i wish they had 30 LOL

bunch of know it all, wannabe tools around here , they arent saying in their opinion ,lots truly believe they could be better then the Jones family. Get a phreaking life!!

 

[RonnieT24]

not fun with nothing but BS narratives and negativity NO, BTW its 7 font it as big as they allow, i wish they had 30 LOL

bunch of know it all, wannabe tools around here , they arent saying in their opinion ,lots truly believe they could be better then the Jones family. Get a phreaking life!!

Just playing a little devil's advocate here.. but I do believe that if you made me GM of the Cowboys and made it my sole job to evaluate and acquire talent for the Cowboys I could do better than the Joneses. Not because I know so much more about football than they do.. but because I would not let my ego keep me from getting the best talent available. I would not care if anybody around the league recognized me as "a football man." If I thought a guy was a good player and I could get him I would get him. I would pay waaaay more attention to the trenches than Jerry has for the most part. Especially on defense. It's no coincidence that the best teams of the last 25 years have featured pro bowl talent in the trenches on both sides of the ball. I would have gotten a playmaker at safety a LONG time ago. I think what gets Jerry in trouble is that he worries too much about what people making 1/10000th as much money as he makes thinks. He has botched many a deal and acquisition trying to show himself to be smarter than the rest of the league.. He has taken too many injury and character risk players for that reason IMHO. He has bucked "conventional wisdom" more times than we can count. And he has the success of the early 90's to lean on as examples of the times when his bucking conventional wisdom worked out fabulously. But as we know, just because something works one time doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work the next time.. or the next time. I get that bucking the norm has made Jerry a billionaire.. so it's hard for him to see the error of his ways. I think there are a number of people here who could do a better job assembling a roster than the Joneses have done for the most part the last 25 years.. maybe yourself included. We would not have all the side business interests they do.. no malls, no hotels, no Star in Frisco.. no fight nights and tractor pulls at the stadium.. We would just build the football team... In software they have a principle known as the "don't get cute" principle. It basically means don't overcomplicate your software trying to get clever. If it takes 5 lines to do a task then use 5 lines instead of creating one or two mangled lines of logic just to save a few lines of code. Jerry gets cute too often as the head of the Cowboys.. I would never do such a thing...

 

[blueblood70]

Just playing a little devil's advocate here.. but I do believe that if you made me GM of the Cowboys and made it my sole job to evaluate and acquire talent for the Cowboys I could do better than the Joneses. Not because I know so much more about football than they do.. but because I would not let my ego keep me from getting the best talent available. I would not care if anybody around the league recognized me as "a football man." If I thought a guy was a good player and I could get him I would get him. I would pay waaaay more attention to the trenches than Jerry has for the most part. Especially on defense. It's no coincidence that the best teams of the last 25 years have featured pro bowl talent in the trenches on both sides of the ball. I would have gotten a playmaker at safety a LONG time ago. I think what gets Jerry in trouble is that he worries too much about what people making 1/10000th as much money as he makes thinks. He has botched many a deal and acquisition trying to show himself to be smarter than the rest of the league.. He has taken too many injury and character risk players for that reason IMHO. He has bucked "conventional wisdom" more times than we can count. And he has the success of the early 90's to lean on as examples of the times when his bucking conventional wisdom worked out fabulously. But as we know, just because something works one time doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work the next time.. or the next time. I get that bucking the norm has made Jerry a billionaire.. so it's hard for him to see the error of his ways. I think there are a number of people here who could do a better job assembling a roster than the Joneses have done for the most part the last 25 years.. maybe yourself included. We would not have all the side business interests they do.. no malls, no hotels, no Star in Frisco.. no fight nights and tractor pulls at the stadium.. We would just build the football team... In software they have a principle known as the "don't get cute" principle. It basically means don't overcomplicate your software trying to get clever. If it takes 5 lines to do a task then use 5 lines instead of creating one or two mangled lines of logic just to save a few lines of code. Jerry gets cute too often as the head of the Cowboys.. I would never do such a thing...

then go apply get job take 20 years to work your way to full GM and prove IT!

until then move on you can not be better GM then executives like WM and army of scouts.etc yes mistakes are made and it happens around the league..

 

[gjkoeppen]

You are being too literal. I am talking more about a concept than a specific instance

I took what YOU wrote and showed the problems with it. Since you probably forgot I'll quiote you. "Teams seem to want to “pay their own” and overpay to keep good (not great players). That’s one way to do it, but it kills your salary cap." . Looney is one of those "their own" players and then you said "what if the Cowboys traded Biadacz" but without Looney signed and trading away Biadacz, who going to play center. Your words on teams own players and trading Biadacz. And then there's "Now that teams are willing to get a dual threat QB" and again there have been dual threat QB;'s around for a long time, it's nothing new. Here's a concept for you, stop playing super GM/scout and leave it to those that get paid to do it and have actual NFL experience doing it.
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[gjkoeppen]

Just playing a little devil's advocate here.. but I do believe that if you made me GM of the Cowboys and made it my sole job to evaluate and acquire talent for the Cowboys I could do better than the Joneses. Not because I know so much more about football than they do.. but because I would not let my ego keep me from getting the best talent available. I would not care if anybody around the league recognized me as "a football man." If I thought a guy was a good player and I could get him I would get him. I would pay waaaay more attention to the trenches than Jerry has for the most part. Especially on defense. It's no coincidence that the best teams of the last 25 years have featured pro bowl talent in the trenches on both sides of the ball. I would have gotten a playmaker at safety a LONG time ago. I think what gets Jerry in trouble is that he worries too much about what people making 1/10000th as much money as he makes thinks. He has botched many a deal and acquisition trying to show himself to be smarter than the rest of the league.. He has taken too many injury and character risk players for that reason IMHO. He has bucked "conventional wisdom" more times than we can count. And he has the success of the early 90's to lean on as examples of the times when his bucking conventional wisdom worked out fabulously. But as we know, just because something works one time doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work the next time.. or the next time. I get that bucking the norm has made Jerry a billionaire.. so it's hard for him to see the error of his ways. I think there are a number of people here who could do a better job assembling a roster than the Joneses have done for the most part the last 25 years.. maybe yourself included. We would not have all the side business interests they do.. no malls, no hotels, no Star in Frisco.. no fight nights and tractor pulls at the stadium.. We would just build the football team... In software they have a principle known as the "don't get cute" principle. It basically means don't overcomplicate your software trying to get clever. If it takes 5 lines to do a task then use 5 lines instead of creating one or two mangled lines of logic just to save a few lines of code. Jerry gets cute too often as the head of the Cowboys.. I would never do such a thing...

This is just a question on your devil's advocate. I'll play devil's advocate to yours. If you admit that you don't know as much about football as those doing the job, what makes you think that with your lesser knowledge that your selections are or would be better than those made by Jones? You talk about Jones ego but what does it say about yours when you say you could do a better job with zero NFL experience under your belt? The biggest thing I think of when users here play GM/scout is they don't have all of the players contracts for each year and what their cap hit will be and dead cap hit if they were released or trade in any given year at their finger tips that we as fans don't have. Nor do we have access to what they do in team meetings and most of practices where the public and media aren't allowed to watch. We don't have access to any conversations the coaches have had about any player or the conversations between coaches and Jones about any player. In other words we don't have the needed info at our finger tips or any actual NFL experience.
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[CyberB0b]

That’s merely an example.

Yes, an example of way over valuing the trade market. We only have a couple of players who would be viable trade bait. One is CD Lamb. We would be lucky to get a 2nd for him.

 

[JoeKing]

I am sorry, but anyone who has ever played a down of middle school football can tell that Jaylon Smith and LVE are not fundamentally sound NFL linebackers. Superior athleticism and size may have bailed them out at lower levels but it simply does not work in the NFL. Examples of poor technique that can be observed on most plays:

#1) Over running the ball carrier. Linebackers are taught to play one step behind the ball carrier as they track him behind the line. This way it eliminates the possibility of being burned badly on the cutback. You also fit cleanly with the other linebacker who is being run at, preventing huge holes from forming. Watch either of our "star" duo and they blow this consistently.

#2) Play recognition. Linebackers typically get their reads from the behavior of the offensive line. If they fire out aggressively, run. If they punch and setup in pass protection, sink to your zone. Observing the RB can also give you cues. I cannot tell you how many times I have watched on LBs sink to a 10 yard drop as a RB obviously is setting up in the flat to catch a screen. We have been consistently horrid against the screen and our LB play is a large part of this. Any high school coach would rip his players a new one for the style of play our guys put out there every week.

#3) Shed blocks. This is something that can be coached and sometimes young NFL LBs struggle with it due to the size of NFL blockers. If our guys were in their first year I would not be as worried, but they are entering their 4th and 5th seasons still struggling to get off blockers. If you can't get off blocks, you oftentimes can make the tackle at 5-6 yards downfield, but you are never going to be in a position to stop the back for a short-no gain.

In the end, anyone who has an intermediate knowledge of the linebacker position would tell you immediately that ours lack discipline in the fundamentals. Making a ton of tackles 5, 6, 7 yards behind the LOS might look good on paper but our guys simply do not pass the eye test.

I would also like to add that our DL is also responsible for our LB play to some extent. It is very hard to make tackles when your line is getting bulldozed into you and this happened quite a bit last year. I think that Jaylon and LVE are not as bad as they looked the last year or two, but I certainly do not expect them to be pro bowl caliber players again. With improved line play, a return to the 4-3 from the 3-4, and a full offseason I think they can return to being average-above average linebackers.

tldr

 

[JoeKing]

Wouldn't be an issue if it worked, theyre leaving out a major component of improving a roster and it sucks

It's worked much of the time they've done it. It's easy for you to say they leave out a major component of improving a roster when it's not your money being spent. Up until very recent history, the Cowboys have been the winningest team in all of NFL history despite the lack of championships since 1995. I get it that you are a disgruntled fan but don't let your dissatisfaction confuse you. The system the Cowboys use to build the team in the era of FA is tried and true and will continue.

 

[EST_1986]

It's worked much of the time they've done it. It's easy for you to say they leave out a major component of improving a roster when it's not your money being spent. Up until very recent history, the Cowboys have been the winningest team in all of NFL history despite the lack of championships since 1995. I get it that you are a disgruntled fan but don't let your dissatisfaction confuse you. The system the Cowboys use to build the team in the era of FA is tried and true and will continue.

It’s been a stellar past 25 years

 

[JoeKing]

It’s been a stellar past 25 years

You'll not win this argument with sarcasm. I've already conceded they are in down years. My point is they have not always been so down and those times should not be discounted. And I believe they are making progress to get out of the cellar with their defense.

 

[RonnieT24]

then go apply get job take 20 years to work your way to full GM and prove IT!

until then move on you can not be better GM then executives like WM and army of scouts.etc yes mistakes are made and it happens around the league..

Honestly if I hadn't gone to a good school and landed a really good job I probably WOULD have pursued something like getting into football.. But at this point in my life I make too much money to go back to the crappy salaries that guys have to make while they "prove" their way through the ranks to get to be an NFL GM or even a scout.. To say nothing of the ridiculous hours they put in.. My guess is I'd already be on my 4th or 5th wife if I had gone that route. I never said I could be better than McClay or the Cowboys scouts.. I specifically said I think I could do better than the Joneses. I have a lot of respect for Will and the work he does.. I just don't think they always listen to him.. especially when drafting defensive players when Rod was here.

P.S. there is only one team I would care to work my way up to being GM and that job is taken for the next 30-40 years ..

 

[RonnieT24]

This is just a question on your devil's advocate. I'll play devil's advocate to yours. If you admit that you don't know as much about football as those doing the job, what makes you think that with your lesser knowledge that your selections are or would be better than those made by Jones? You talk about Jones ego but what does it say about yours when you say you could do a better job with zero NFL experience under your belt? The biggest thing I think of when users here play GM/scout is they don't have all of the players contracts for each year and what their cap hit will be and dead cap hit if they were released or trade in any given year at their finger tips that we as fans don't have. Nor do we have access to what they do in team meetings and most of practices where the public and media aren't allowed to watch. We don't have access to any conversations the coaches have had about any player or the conversations between coaches and Jones about any player. In other words we don't have the needed info at our finger tips or any actual NFL experience.
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First of all I believe I DO know more about football than Jerry and Stephen.. at least on an X's and O's level. And I am not vain enough to think I could step in from day one and do the job.. but there is nothing I have done for 30+ years that I would NOT be better at than Jerry and Stephen are. So I do believe that given a couple to three years to figure out all the procedurals I could get it right with players more often than they have. At no point have I said I would hit on 100%.. but some of Jerry's screwups have been seen a mile away by 90% of the folks on these boards. Especially the drafting of hurt guys thing.. Or the character issues thing.. Not that I am a proponent of only drafting choir boys.. but some of the chances we've taken have simply been unnecessary. Hardy? Irving? or going back to Underwood or Spellman.. It was a well Jerry has visited far too often.. By the way, given how bad most of our defensive draftees have turned out, are you satisfied with what Jerry and Stephen have done with all that "needed info" and "actual NFL experience?"

 

[Typhus]

Teams seem to want to copycat each other. QBs are an example of that. For so long teams only looked at the prototypical QB. Now that teams are willing to get a dual threat QB there are more high quality QBs in the league.

Teams seem to want to “pay their own” and overpay to keep good (not great players). That’s one way to do it, but it kills your salary cap.

For instance Dallas has been very successful drafting OL but not so good at selecting defenders. Dallas might have been better served by churning the OL (even with high round picks) and flipping them for picks, or other players.

Dallas has found a good player in Biadacz, but what if the Cowboys traded Biadacz for say a third round pick and drafted Creed Humphrey in the second. You get one more year of cheap labor and profit from the trade.

Tyrons contract was very team friendly and is even more so now. But Martin is/was the highest paid guard in the NFL. That’s a cap killer. If you could have flipped Martin for a first and a third prior to his massive contract extension would that have been a better deal? It may have hurt the OL a little but would the defense have more assets?

Hear what your saying and an asset is an asset, and every play you make is a constant cap evaluation aimed at improvement cap wise, but at what point are you trying to over capitalize for the sake of the cap at the expense of extremely wreaking havoc on a potentially competitive roster, I guess thats when its considered a total rebuild.