It still blows my mind how this team doesn't run a 3-4 defense

Zekeats

Zekeats

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They will still put out 3 guys who weigh less than 280 lbs and one who looks like he barely tips the scale at 300. That will never stop the run and we will continue to get gashed up the middle. If you stack 3 300lb+ interior lineman and have Micah and the 2nd rounder on the outside and Murray and Overshown in the middle this team would not only stop the run but it would allow all that speed to shine and make plays. It's a joke, the worst offseason move this team made was resigning a shrimp at DT to 20+ million a year.
 
when the front office is obsessed with pass rush and cares not at all with stopping the run, this is what you get

Mazi, unless he takes a HUGE step forward, is a bust

the only person we have on this team that could be a real NT is our seventh round rookie

we certainly have no one who could be 3-4 DE's
 
With guys like Micah, the BC kid, Sam Williams and Dante Fowler this team is LOADED with good 3-4 pass rushers. It would make sense to load up on some huge interior guys to make it work.



This team. Uggggh
 
Bagman said:
With guys like Micah, the BC kid, Sam Williams and Dante Fowler this team is LOADED with good 3-4 pass rushers. It would make sense to load up on some huge interior guys to make it work.



This team. Uggggh
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we got pass rushers but you do realize the difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE?
a 3-4 DE has to be bigger and stronger then anyone we have on the roster
 
Tough part about running a 3-4 and why I think very few teams do (most seem to be hybrids more than true 3-4) is because those 3 interior guys have to be spectacular players. It used to be that you could plug in three bigger run stuffers and get elite athletes for the edges, but with the evolution of the game interior pressure is so important against the pass. Pittsburg and Baltimore probably run the most true versions of the 3-4 as you'll see but look at how they load up on interior players who can get after the passer too.
 
thunderpimp91 said:
Tough part about running a 3-4 and why I think very few teams do (most seem to be hybrids more than true 3-4) is because those 3 interior guys have to be spectacular players. It used to be that you could plug in three bigger run stuffers and get elite athletes for the edges, but with the evolution of the game interior pressure is so important against the pass. Pittsburg and Baltimore probably run the most true versions of the 3-4 as you'll see but look at how they load up on interior players who can get after the passer too.
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one of the reasons BP liked the 3-4 more was because its easier to get LBs then DL that excel. I disagree about the priority put on DT's getting interior pass rush. Very few big DL ever will get a serious pass rush. you look at the teams winning SBs and how many of them have any real interior Pass Rush from the DTs?
 
gtb1943 said:
one of the reasons BP liked the 3-4 more was because its easier to get LBs then DL that excel. I disagree about the priority put on DT's getting interior pass rush. Very few big DL ever will get a serious pass rush. you look at the teams winning SBs and how many of them have any real interior Pass Rush from the DTs?
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20 years ago I think BP was absolutely correct, but the way the game has evolved has changed that.

I don't think I could disagree with you more in your saying that DTs pass rush should never be a priority. That is a common theme that pretty much all modern day super bowl teams have in common.

Philly - Milton Williams / Jalen Carter
KC - Chris Jones
SF - Javon Hargrave / Arik Armstead / Kinlaw
LA - Aaron Donald
Tampa - Vea / Gholston / Suh
Even Cincinnati in 21' didnt have elite players up the middle but still had a nice tiro of Ogunjobi/Hill/Reader who were all 300+ pound guys that combined for 111 total pressures that year

I bring up Pittsburgh and Baltimore in my previous posts in the example because look at the guys inside...

Pitts - Heyward (56 pressures), Benton (22 pressures as a NT) and they just used a 1st round pick on an interior guy with rush skills this year.
Baltimore - Madubuike (56 pressures), Jones (30 pressures at a NT), plus Oweh who isnt a true DT but does bump inside at times as well.

Compare those numbers to a guy like Mazi who totaled 8 pressures all year.

I haven't looked into the numbers much but I would be a pretty large sum of money that the worst defenses in the league last year are also among the worst in interior pressure rates as well...with maybe one outlier in there somewhere.
 
The old school Parcells 3-4 died off when spread offenses made 11 base personnel the norm. It forced one of the inside backers off the field, and moved DLs between gaps for better pass rushing rather than playing them head-up for better gap control. Some teams still use 3-4'ish fronts and concepts, but no one runs the pure "350 lb nose tackle", "300 lb picket fence DE" type defense any more.

The defense that I'm surprised hasn't caught on more is the 5-1 "penny". The McVay style mid-zone rushing attack rules the NFL right now, and Belichick shut it down in the Super Bowl by just deploying heavy fronts and mugging all the gaps they wanted to cut back in. But he still kept 2 deep safeties to limit big passing plays. The NFL is a copycat league, so I really expected that look to show up more afterwards. But it's really just remained a wrinkle.
 
thunderpimp91 said:
20 years ago I think BP was absolutely correct, but the way the game has evolved has changed that.

I don't think I could disagree with you more in your saying that DTs pass rush should never be a priority. That is a common theme that pretty much all modern day super bowl teams have in common.

Philly - Milton Williams / Jalen Carter
KC - Chris Jones
SF - Javon Hargrave / Arik Armstead / Kinlaw
LA - Aaron Donald
Tampa - Vea / Gholston / Suh
Even Cincinnati in 21' didnt have elite players up the middle but still had a nice tiro of Ogunjobi/Hill/Reader who were all 300+ pound guys that combined for 111 total pressures that year

I bring up Pittsburgh and Baltimore in my previous posts in the example because look at the guys inside...

Pitts - Heyward (56 pressures), Benton (22 pressures as a NT) and they just used a 1st round pick on an interior guy with rush skills this year.
Baltimore - Madubuike (56 pressures), Jones (30 pressures at a NT), plus Oweh who isnt a true DT but does bump inside at times as well.

Compare those numbers to a guy like Mazi who totaled 8 pressures all year.

I haven't looked into the numbers much but I would be a pretty large sum of money that the worst defenses in the league last year are also among the worst in interior pressure rates as well...with maybe one outlier in there somewhere.
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and look at how few there really are
and then look at their actual numbers
what you consider pressure

of the top fifty pass rushers last season only four DT's were on Playoff Teams

and how many sacks and pressures did they really get?

And is it pass rush or just being able to push the OL back and cause pressure that way

and a fair number of DTs on that list of top 100 are with teams that are not above
average in defense
 
beware_d-ware said:
The old school Parcells 3-4 died off when spread offenses made 11 base personnel the norm. It forced one of the inside backers off the field, and moved DLs between gaps for better pass rushing rather than playing them head-up for better gap control. Some teams use more 3-4'ish fronts and concepts, but no one runs the pure "350 lb nose tackle", "300 lb picket fence DE" type defense any more.

The defense that I'm surprised hasn't caught on more is the 5-1 "penny". The McVay style mid-zone rushing attack rules the NFL right now, and Belichick shut it down in the Super Bowl by just deploying heavy fronts and mugging all the gaps they wanted to cut back in, while keeping 2 deep safeties to limit big passing plays. The NFL is a copycat league, so I really expected that look to show up more afterwards. But it's really just remained a wrinkle.
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350 lb NT?
blew your argument right there

and the size of the 3-4 DE has not gotten any smaller
 
gtb1943 said:
we got pass rushers but you do realize the difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE?
a 3-4 DE has to be bigger and stronger then anyone we have on the roster
Click to expand...
That's why I said we SHOULD load up on proper 3-4 linemen. We've got a lot of 3-4 edge rushers and inside LBs on the team right now.
 
Can’t believe people are still having this discussion in the year 2025
 
gtb1943 said:
and look at how few there really are
and then look at their actual numbers
what you consider pressure

of the top fifty pass rushers last season only four DT's were on Playoff Teams

and how many sacks and pressures did they really get?

And is it pass rush or just being able to push the OL back and cause pressure that way

and a fair number of DTs on that list of top 100 are with teams that are not above
average in defense
Click to expand...
You'll have to help me out with how you're doing the math here. Between 3-4 ends and 4-3 DTs (since we are talking about 3-4 defenses) here is what I'm seeing from playoff teams as far as top 50 pass rushers go....

Chris Jones - Playoff team - 88 total pressures - 2nd in the NFL
Zach Allen - Playoff team - 81 total pressures - 6th in the NFL
Jalen Carter - Playoff team - 75 total pressures - 8th in the NFL
Kobie Turner - PLayoff team - 62 total pressures - 19th in the NFL
Nnamdi Madubuike - Playoff team - 60 total pressures - 24th in the NFL
Cam Hayward - Playoff team - 60 total pressures - 24th in the NFL
Braden Fiske - Playoff team - 59 total pressures - 28th in the NFL
Milton Williams - Playoff team - 54 total pressures - 35th in the NFL
Vita Vea - Playoff team - 53 total pressures - 35th in the NFL
John Franklin Myers - Playoff team - 53 total pressures - 40th in the NFL
Ed Oliver - Playoff team - 49 total pressures - 47th in the NFL

I could be missing some but Jarran Reed, Quinnen Williams, Leonard Williams are the only non playoff teams with interior guys in the top 50. I would also assume the collective numbers would be pretty consistent (with maybe 1 or 2 outliers) that top 10 defenses create top 10 interior pressure numbers and bottom 10 defenses create bottom 10 interior pressure numbers. I'm not taking the time to do the math on all those today, but good teams without top tier interior players typically stockpile average depth to rotate these guys.

Personally I think sack numbers, pressure numbers, and simply getting a push all factor into the equation just at different levels of importance. I used pressures for this one simply because I think its the most telling for the interior guys. If it were EDGE guys we were talking about I may look at both sacks and pressures as they are expected to get home at a highe rate. Very few guys in the middle are going to rack up 10+ sacks, but with a lot of the league transitioning to quicker timed passes over the years to try and neutralize the EDGE rushers that seem to be found in every draft with elite speed, quick interior rushers get in those throwing lanes to disrupt the timing at the very least...often times they are the reason these EDGE guys can feast because the QB can't step up in the pockets too.

I just cant think of a really good team that has skimped on interior rushers this decade. I'm sure we could come up with one, but I'm guessing not many. I always go back to DWares last year here...I swear that guy should have set the season record for sacks that season, but a lack of any push at all up the middle just let QBs step up to avoid the loss.
 
gtb1943 said:
when the front office is obsessed with pass rush and cares not at all with stopping the run, this is what you get

Mazi, unless he takes a HUGE step forward, is a bust

the only person we have on this team that could be a real NT is our seventh round rookie

we certainly have no one who could be 3-4 DE's
Click to expand...
You sound so happy when you’re crapping on the team every thread, every post and every day.
 
thunderpimp91 said:
You'll have to help me out with how you're doing the math here. Between 3-4 ends and 4-3 DTs (since we are talking about 3-4 defenses) here is what I'm seeing from playoff teams as far as top 50 pass rushers go....

Chris Jones - Playoff team - 88 total pressures - 2nd in the NFL
Zach Allen - Playoff team - 81 total pressures - 6th in the NFL
Jalen Carter - Playoff team - 75 total pressures - 8th in the NFL
Kobie Turner - PLayoff team - 62 total pressures - 19th in the NFL
Nnamdi Madubuike - Playoff team - 60 total pressures - 24th in the NFL
Cam Hayward - Playoff team - 60 total pressures - 24th in the NFL
Braden Fiske - Playoff team - 59 total pressures - 28th in the NFL
Milton Williams - Playoff team - 54 total pressures - 35th in the NFL
Vita Vea - Playoff team - 53 total pressures - 35th in the NFL
John Franklin Myers - Playoff team - 53 total pressures - 40th in the NFL
Ed Oliver - Playoff team - 49 total pressures - 47th in the NFL

I could be missing some but Jarran Reed, Quinnen Williams, Leonard Williams are the only non playoff teams with interior guys in the top 50. I would also assume the collective numbers would be pretty consistent (with maybe 1 or 2 outliers) that top 10 defenses create top 10 interior pressure numbers and bottom 10 defenses create bottom 10 interior pressure numbers. I'm not taking the time to do the math on all those today, but good teams without top tier interior players typically stockpile average depth to rotate these guys.

Personally I think sack numbers, pressure numbers, and simply getting a push all factor into the equation just at different levels of importance. I used pressures for this one simply because I think its the most telling for the interior guys. If it were EDGE guys we were talking about I may look at both sacks and pressures as they are expected to get home at a highe rate. Very few guys in the middle are going to rack up 10+ sacks, but with a lot of the league transitioning to quicker timed passes over the years to try and neutralize the EDGE rushers that seem to be found in every draft with elite speed, quick interior rushers get in those throwing lanes to disrupt the timing at the very least...often times they are the reason these EDGE guys can feast because the QB can't step up in the pockets too.

I just cant think of a really good team that has skimped on interior rushers this decade. I'm sure we could come up with one, but I'm guessing not many. I always go back to DWares last year here...I swear that guy should have set the season record for sacks that season, but a lack of any push at all up the middle just let QBs step up to avoid the loss.
Click to expand...
He’s famous for that. He’ll post something that’s not true to further his hate agenda hoping it will stick.
 
thunderpimp91 said:
You'll have to help me out with how you're doing the math here. Between 3-4 ends and 4-3 DTs (since we are talking about 3-4 defenses) here is what I'm seeing from playoff teams as far as top 50 pass rushers go....

Chris Jones - Playoff team - 88 total pressures - 2nd in the NFL
Zach Allen - Playoff team - 81 total pressures - 6th in the NFL
Jalen Carter - Playoff team - 75 total pressures - 8th in the NFL
Kobie Turner - PLayoff team - 62 total pressures - 19th in the NFL
Nnamdi Madubuike - Playoff team - 60 total pressures - 24th in the NFL
Cam Hayward - Playoff team - 60 total pressures - 24th in the NFL
Braden Fiske - Playoff team - 59 total pressures - 28th in the NFL
Milton Williams - Playoff team - 54 total pressures - 35th in the NFL
Vita Vea - Playoff team - 53 total pressures - 35th in the NFL
John Franklin Myers - Playoff team - 53 total pressures - 40th in the NFL
Ed Oliver - Playoff team - 49 total pressures - 47th in the NFL

I could be missing some but Jarran Reed, Quinnen Williams, Leonard Williams are the only non playoff teams with interior guys in the top 50. I would also assume the collective numbers would be pretty consistent (with maybe 1 or 2 outliers) that top 10 defenses create top 10 interior pressure numbers and bottom 10 defenses create bottom 10 interior pressure numbers. I'm not taking the time to do the math on all those today, but good teams without top tier interior players typically stockpile average depth to rotate these guys.

Personally I think sack numbers, pressure numbers, and simply getting a push all factor into the equation just at different levels of importance. I used pressures for this one simply because I think its the most telling for the interior guys. If it were EDGE guys we were talking about I may look at both sacks and pressures as they are expected to get home at a highe rate. Very few guys in the middle are going to rack up 10+ sacks, but with a lot of the league transitioning to quicker timed passes over the years to try and neutralize the EDGE rushers that seem to be found in every draft with elite speed, quick interior rushers get in those throwing lanes to disrupt the timing at the very least...often times they are the reason these EDGE guys can feast because the QB can't step up in the pockets too.

I just cant think of a really good team that has skimped on interior rushers this decade. I'm sure we could come up with one, but I'm guessing not many. I always go back to DWares last year here...I swear that guy should have set the season record for sacks that season, but a lack of any push at all up the middle just let QBs step up to avoid the loss.
Click to expand...
tackles, dude; you keep trying to divert by bringing in DE;s
 
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