Cee Dee's Interesting comments about last week

[Vtwin]

Actually I had no opinion until I read this thread because it didn’t really matter to me.

Maybe Dak did have more time but if you look at the last still @DallasEast posted with the ball ~5 feet out of his hand, you can see the lineman and defender are on top of Dak. Without scrambling, I don’t see how you buy much more time.

And I agree 100% that the defenders’ momentum is going backwards and in each still that follows the separation increases. But Pickens caused that momentum by pushing off (my opinion) which happened at/after release. But I would suggest that all Dak sees is there is no separation at the time of release and without what I view as a push off, there is no real indication that Pickens would come clear. And this was clearly a 1-read call, so it’s not like he needed to go through a progression…it’s either there or it isn’t.

It’s easy in hindsight to question decisions when you see the outcome. And in this case the fact that he ended up so open after release makes it look even more egregious. But hindsight isn’t afforded in real time. If some want to argue that Dak should have trusted Pickens to make the play, that’s valid. Personally I would have called a play with more options v a quick hit, 1-read play…they had time.

I tend to give the Ravens credit for good defense. They took away the slant with inside help and the CB was heads-up and pressed. The CB kept his eyes on Dak and Pickens release was a strong clue this wasn’t going to be a traditional fade route.

I don’t have a strong Dak opinion like most on this site but for this single play, I give Dak and Schotty a pass on the throw-away decision. I would also have been fine if he took the shot and trusted Pickens as long as he put it in a spot where only Pickens had a chance. However I believe the call was a play not to lose v finish them call which I think is a loser’s mentality.

I don't have a problem with the play call. They had the DB in a pickle because he had to be aware of the corner fade with Pickens being an excellant jump ball receiver.

To me this play is emblematic of Prescott's propensity to play a very cautious game. We've seen the quick out, throw the ball to the pylon play a million times throughout our football fan lives. A video was posted in this thread that showed the same play completed with much tighter coverage on the receiver. Maybe it was a different thread but same topic.

I agree completely with your last sentence. I just put the onus on the QB for giving up on it rather than giving it a chance. At the very least the play had a chance to be the game winner. Put the ball on the pylon and give your guy a chance. Especially since Pickens is exactly the guy you want in one on one coverage.

It's going to be very difficult to win three playoff games with both a QB and a HC who play a timid game in situations where you need to make something happen.

This is not a prediction but it could very well turn out that that play is a big factor in falling one win short of the playoffs. Of course I'm not blaming that one play entirely for the loss. All I'm saying is the win was right there in Prescott's hands and he chose to not go for the biscuit.

 

[DallasEast]

A video was posted in this thread that showed the same play completed with much tighter coverage on the receiver. Maybe it was a different thread but same topic.

I hope it is not my video:

https://cowboyszone.com/threads/you-are-the-coach-you-trust-your-qb-whats-your-call.547331/

DaRon Bland was giving Ja'Marr Chase some cushion. Not the same as Nate Wiggins on George Pickens pre-snap. Down and distance was the same. Pre-snap ball placement was the same. The receiver route was the same.

Now I would agree comparative defender's coverage was tighter at the moment the ball was released in one video and when the ball could have been released in the other video. Bland was way more up on Chase when he cut than Wiggins on Pickens at the moment of his cut to the pylon.

 

[erod]

I was replying to your statement that he was wide open, which he was not. You can’t throw that pass on timing. If Pickens didn’t push off, that very well could have been a pick six as the DB was in excellent position.

Like I mentioned earlier, it can be debated why he didn’t wait one second longer and whether Schotty told him to or not.

One thing of note, Schotty is heavily criticized by many here, and rightfully so. But if Dak is involved, suddenly Schotty becomes a saint.

You just need to stop. It's laughable.

 

[Spottswoode]

I certainly respect your opinion and those who share it. My opinion, which can be easily wrong, is that the defender's coverage could have been beaten with a timed pass.

The risk is overt due to the pre-snap press coverage of Nate Wiggins. George Pickens ten-yard out pattern would force any defender to drop back with him. The risk (as I see it) is Wiggins guessing correctly Prescott throwing at the pylon before Pickens makes his cut. In other words, jumping the route. That would be a easy pick-six going the other way.

The odds favor the DB maintaining coverage all the way until the WR makes their cut because man coverage mandates they defend where the receiver takes them--inside, outside, or to the back of the endzone. On a ten-yard out route, a timed pass almost always beats even close coverage unless the DB's name is Deion. The DB must still plant his back foot to eliminate this backpedaling momentum. Physics is never wrong.

There is still an ongoing discussion about this one play. I think there are observers who are basing their conclusion on how the ball could have been delivered exactly in that particular circumstance--along with both how Wiggins covered Pickens and his instant reaction at the moment Pickens made his cut.

It is why I posted a similar play involving a timed pass that was successful in another thread (or maybe I posted it in this thread/old age I guess, lol). Some members correctly counter that example by stating the game situation (first quarter versus fourth quarter) was not remotely the same.

However, that risk assessment self-validates minimizing the chances of a turnover, removing the scoring opportunity, and ending the game with a loss. What is not universally accepted is the well-establish fact this defense is porous. In the real world, making that throw-and-catch would have almost completely erased any miracle play by Baltimore with seconds left. The Ravens would have depended upon Cowboys' defenders not tackling a receiver for the complete length of the field if the score had been 35-31 Dallas.

In my view, the difference here is you have a short field, inside help, a boundary as a second defender, and a need to get into the end zone. He wasn’t concerned with the inside because he had safety help. His job was simple…just defend an area the size of a rich person’s walk-in closet. And once he funneled Pickens to the outside, he only has maybe 2-3 yards from the boundary to make his cut. In hindsight, you would be better off with a back shoulder throw and let Pickens use his body to screen the DB.

Often in these situations DB’s will press the player to the outside, turn their back to the QB and mirror the WR to the corner, and maybe looking back when the ball is in the air. This DB didn’t play it that way. Even when he flips his hips for 2 steps, he maintains contact with Pickens, keeps his eyes in the backfield, and keeps Pickens in front of him. If you watch the replay, he was in perfect position and only when Pickens pushed off did he lose his back foot. He actually lifts off the ground v sink his hips which is what should happen when you plant to change direction. But there was no sink because he lost his back foot thanks to Pickens.

And while physics may never be wrong, the play never reached a speed that would create a big momentum issue without the push off. My 3:00a.m. trips to the bathroom are at a higher speed than that route unfolded. The DB knew where that ball was going as soon as Dak locked on him. And by keeping his eyes in the backfield and maintaining contact with Pickens, he never had to locate Pickens relative to the ball.

That’s just my view but I’m no expert. Personally I give the DB credit for really good coverage and Schotty some blame for allowing inside help without challenge. As soon as the ball is snapped, the safety immediately turns to cover the inside and there was no Cowboy threatening that void. The only player that could have been a threat was Flournoy on the cross but this was a simple, 1-read call, so he never had the chance to clear.

 

[DarkVader33]

You just need to stop. It's laughable.

I don’t think it’s funny that you’re either blind or have an agenda. Pickens wasn’t open when the ball was released. Keeping on lying about it won’t make it not true. There’s plenty to complain about on that play, just not the ridiculous argument that he was wide open.

 

[Spottswoode]

I hope it is not my video:

https://cowboyszone.com/threads/you-are-the-coach-you-trust-your-qb-whats-your-call.547331/

DaRon Bland was giving Ja'Marr Chase some cushion. Not the same as Nate Wiggins on George Pickens pre-snap. Down and distance was the same. Pre-snap ball placement was the same. The receiver route was the same.

Now I would agree comparative defender's coverage was tighter at the moment the ball was released in one video and when the ball could have been released in the other video. Bland was way more up on Chase when he cut than Wiggins on Pickens at the moment of his cut to the pylon.

That’s actually a nice example of different ways to cover the same play. At first blush they look the same but they are played differently. On the offensive side, Chase immediately puts pressure on Bland with speed and leaves space to the sideline, while Pickens drifts outside. Part of that is due to press coverage v the softer coverage as well as Bland’s first move, which I’ll point out next. It wasn’t even a great pass by Burrow but it didn’t have to be.

On the defensive side, watch Bland’s first step. He jab steps to the inside and turns at a 45 to close the slant but gives up outside leverage and loses eyes in the backfield. He is now playing with his back to the play and is immediately susceptible to an out with a good throw (or a marginal throw in this case). Respecting the slant is one of the reasons why Chase was able to keep space to the sideline v Pickens who would have to go through the defender to maintain that space. Downs does provide some inside protection but it is too far away to cover something quick, so Bland had to respect the quick slant, hence the jab step to remove that option. Just my opinion.

 

[Relayer]

Schottenheimer learned did he?

So why did he go for a 62 yard field goal at the end of the first half? He literally gifted Houston 6 points.

Schottenheimer is a liar.

He did appear to learn to run the ball in goal to go situations.

 

[Relayer]

Qb was under pressure and had to get rid of the ball.

Being under pressure is part and parcel with the position.

 

[Relayer]

The main thing that caused the quick throw was the pressure from the edge rusher.

I thought he was just following orders?

 

[DallasEast]

That’s actually a nice example of different ways to cover the same play. At first blush they look the same but they are played differently. On the offensive side, Chase immediately puts pressure on Bland with speed and leaves space to the sideline, while Pickens drifts outside. Part of that is due to press coverage v the softer coverage as well as Bland’s first move, which I’ll point out next. It wasn’t even a great pass by Burrow but it didn’t have to be.

On the defensive side, watch Bland’s first step. He jab steps to the inside and turns at a 45 to close the slant but gives up outside leverage and loses eyes in the backfield. He is now playing with his back to the play and is immediately susceptible to an out with a good throw (or a marginal throw in this case). Respecting the slant is one of the reasons why Chase was able to keep space to the sideline v Pickens who would have to go through the defender to maintain that space. Downs does provide some inside protection but it is too far away to cover something quick, so Bland had to respect the quick slant, hence the jab step to remove that option. Just my opinion.

Downs..?

 

[erod]

I don’t think it’s funny that you’re either blind or have an agenda. Pickens wasn’t open when the ball was released. Keeping on lying about it won’t make it not true. There’s plenty to complain about on that play, just not the ridiculous argument that he was wide open.

You're the only person who didn't see it.

You do not know or understand this game at all.

 

[Relayer]

well atleast dak did not miss a wide open lamb for the touchdown this last game.

Both things can be true.

 

[Relayer]

so schotty saying he called the play to throw the ball away.
he repeated it during the week
he talked about it in the weekly meetings
players talked about it.

none of that matters, because you will believe your own made up story, because you have to drive your agenda and your goal is to trash dak no matter what.


and schotty also admited he was still thinking about the bad play call, and forgot to tell aubrey/ST coach not to kick it out of the endzone to give ravens the ball at 35.
they also forgot how to defend a hail mary type pass.

so all of those stupidity is Dak's fault?

btw, if you actually watched the play sober, you would see the DE was pushing steele back towards Dak and he was less than a yard away...so how much clock should he have killed there?

lets not forget the stupidity of just throwing away a play for no reason.

That loss had plenty of blame to go around. Everyone from coaches to special teams to offense and defense blew it more than once. There was somehow still a chance to win in the end but more mistakes were made. And again, multiple ones.

 

[Relayer]

Nate Wiggins and George Pickens:

Ball release:

Position of ball in relation to ground:

Can Nate Wiggins negate his backward momentum by planting his back foot and jump the ball's path if the pass was aimed at or just in front of the pylon?

I'm not seeing any pressure to force such an early throw.

 

[Relayer]

Yes, for that route, that's open. Pickens is the only one who could have gotten to it.

Pickens definitely had leverage. If Dak didn't throw it so soon it would have been an easy pitch and catch.

 

[Relayer]

You don’t have to fabricate what happened. Pickens was covered when the ball was thrown. And almost immediately after the ball was thrown, Pickens pushed off the DB and was open as the ball was headed towards the stands.

You may argue that Dak could have waited another second but that is a different discussion.

You could argue that he should have.

 

[Relayer]

There is admittedly a little separation in that still. I caught the screen grab a split second before this one which was tighter. And every still after that will show even more separation because the defenders momentum was going backwards. The homer in me likes that there was no call. But the impartial me says that Pickens probably pushed off to get the separation.

If he didn't fully extend his arms it's not pushing off. It's the Michael Irvin rule. We should all know it.

 

[Relayer]

If that's Romo to Dez it's game over.

 

[Relayer]

I don’t think it’s funny that you’re either blind or have an agenda. Pickens wasn’t open when the ball was released. Keeping on lying about it won’t make it not true. There’s plenty to complain about on that play, just not the ridiculous argument that he was wide open.

You keep adding qualifiers. The ball was thrown too soon and there was no flag for pushing off.