Dak (and young Tony) vs elite pass defenses

[khiladi]

No, you're missing the point. I'm saying that throughout Romo's early years (2006-2009), he hasn't had to play a stretch of games where they were breaking in multiple new starters like the Cowboys have had to do this year at RT, LG, and whoever is filling in for Tyron. Flozell, Gurode, Davis, and Colombo had lots of experience together. People are blaming Dak for not being great behind this current group of OL and I'm saying to relax because Romo himself had games where he struggled behind a better OL than what Dak has had vs. Atlanta and Philly. Romo never had a game where Flozell wasn't protecting his blindside...that makes a huge difference. The OL then was not as good as the OL in 2014-2016. But the OL in 2017, even with Tyron healthy, is not as good as the one we've seen with Leary and Free. And then with Tyron injured, it's not even on par with the 06-09 OL.

What does Davis being a bust at Arizona playing OT have to do with how he played in Dallas? He was good playing inside. 3x Pro Bowl and 1x All Pro. Gurode is dumb but made the Pro Bowl 5 times and All Pro in 2009? Yeah...a bunch of scrubs Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson have made their OL look way better than they really are the past 3 years yet how many Pro Bowls and All Pro teams have their OL made?

Let's take a look at the numbers of sacks given up during that span in relation to the rest of the league's sack totals:

2006: 37 (16th/23)
2007: 25 (8th/27)
2008: 31 (13th/28)
2009: 34 (12th/24)

Not great but definitely not terrible or close to being the worst.

Yes, Romo's OL got pretty bad from 2010-2013 but by that point, he was also an experienced QB. The point of this topic is to show that Romo had games like what Dak has had while he was inexperienced too. People want Dak to put the team on his back behind this currently bad OL while also not even fully polished as a QB yet.

That’s an awful defense of your point..

1. Your argument was that the OL player together with stability before Romo got there. That’s wrong.. Romo started the very same year four of the five bums started here. Dak had an OL that played together a minimum of three years together adding Martin, who played with them 2.

2. Leonard Davis was moved around in Arizona and was a bust. The fact your using Pro Bowls as indicators of great performances is comical, considering it’s a popularity contest. Part of the selection process is done by FANS.

3. Those numbers are mid-tier numbers WITH Romo and corroborates exactly what I was saying. They couldn’t RUN BLOCK worth anything and their only ‘remaining’ salvation was a middle of the pack sack totals, BECAUSE Romo was back there.

4. 2010 was when Jason Garrett completely took over as HC and was calling the plays prior. And when he got total control it sucked even more, while Dak doesn’t even have to deal with that since Linehan is control.

The whole point is your trying to put this OL which is considered top three in the league, even with its current flaws, as equivalent to that group that was a joke to defend Dak. Morris still ran the ball well. Dak’s first year the OL allowed lower 20s in terms of sacks and they’ve been producing 1000 yard rushers going back years.

The line-play wasn’t even bad last game.

 

[percyhoward]

No an early Romo did not have the same coaches or OL his early years..

"Romo had the same coaches and supporting cast in the other games when his rating was 30 points higher."

In other words, in the games not against Top-5 defenses. Same time period.

 

[TheCoolFan]

That’s an awful defense of your point..

1. Your argument was that the OL player together with stability before Romo got there. That’s wrong.. Romo started the very same year four of the five bums started here. Dak had an OL that played together a minimum of three years together adding Martin, who played with them 2.

2. Leonard Davis was moved around in Arizona and was a bust. The fact your using Pro Bowls as indicators of great performances is comical, considering it’s a popularity contest. Part of the selection process is done by FANS.

3. Those numbers are mid-tier numbers WITH Romo and corroborates exactly what I was saying. They couldn’t RUN BLOCK worth anything and their only ‘remaining’ salvation was a middle of the pack sack totals, BECAUSE Romo was back there.

4. 2010 was when Jason Garrett completely took over as HC and was calling the plays prior. And when he got total control it sucked even more, while Dak doesn’t even have to deal with that since Linehan is control.

The whole point is your trying to put this OL which is considered top three in the league, even with its current flaws, as equivalent to that group that was a joke to defend Dak. Morris still ran the ball well. Dak’s first year the OL allowed lower 20s in terms of sacks and they’ve been producing 1000 yard rushers going back years.

The line-play wasn’t even bad last game.

You are missing the ENTIRE point. This is not a matter of the old OL vs. the 2016 OL. The 2016 OL is clearly better...no one is arguing that. The OL that Dak has had the last 2 games in not the 2016 OL. You think they weren't that bad?? Romo never had a Chaz Green or Byron Bell playing LT during those years. Those guys are bums...not the guys from 06-09 who were decent. If you think Leonard Davis was a bust, what the heck does that make Jonathan Cooper then? Davis in his time here has proven to be superior than what we've seen from Cooper, who has not looked good. People are saying La'el Collins has not been as good at RT as Doug Free last year...and Free was showing decline in 2016.

The Cowboys have given up 12 sacks in these last two games...that is probably one of the worst 2-game stretches in NFL history and definitely more than any 2-game stretch under Romo.

Without Tyron right now, this is a bottom-5 OL in the league...I don't see how you can sit there and say they are still better than those "bums" in 2006-2009. You don't win many games with a bottom-5 OL. If that was the case then the Cowboys would have gone 5-11 or worse during 06-09.

 

[DC Cowboy]

Or more proof that fans on here will hate on him just like they did Romo because he can't put an entire team on his back and carry it.

And let's not forget that the Eagles went out and got Wentz help. They got him decent back up O linemen, better WRs, two good TEs, made improvements on their D. Traded for Jay Ajaiyi. They drafted Barnett, we drafted Taco (jury is still out j/s). They trade for Darby to go with their up and coming young DB's. We let our whole D backfield go! I won't comment on how it also appears their coaching staff has improved/grown as well.

P.S. I miss Ron Leary

 

[percyhoward]

I thought it was pretty obvious what the OP was presenting.

He is not comparing their style of play, mechanics, but how they fared against top rated defenses to start their starting career.

I think the OP is just trying to provide context that young QB’s GO THROUGH STRUGGLES.

And I think most people get it (if they want to), but your explanations are definitely appreciated. Here's some more context...

Aikman
1991-92, in 6 games vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses
105 of 187 (56%) 1243 yd (6.6 ypa) 8 td 10 int 68.5

1991-92 vs. #6-28 Pass Defenses
506 of 754 (67%) 5865 yd (7.8 ypa) 34 td 15 int 97.2

These are his 3rd and 4th seasons as a starter. He made the Pro Bowl both years, and was Top 6 in passer rating both years.

 

[khiladi]

"Romo had the same coaches and supporting cast in the other games when his rating was 30 points higher."

In other words, in the games not against Top-5 defenses. Same time period.

You mean a QB generally performs better against a worse defense.. amazing insight..

Still has nothing to do with Dak and Romo and early year comparisons. Two totally different rosters and coaching.

You are really just trying to white-wash Dak’s performance as being purely because of the defense. It wasn’t the defense that caused Dak to throw balls at Dez’s feet on screens and chuck balls downfield without his feet set to Dez.

 

[khiladi]

You are missing the ENTIRE point. This is not a matter of the old OL vs. the 2016 OL. The 2016 OL is clearly better...no one is arguing that. The OL that Dak has had the last 2 games in not the 2016 OL. You think they weren't that bad?? Romo never had a Chaz Green or Byron Bell playing LT during those years. Those guys are bums...not the guys from 06-09 who were decent. If you think Leonard Davis was a bust, what the heck does that make Jonathan Cooper then? Davis in his time here has proven to be superior than what we've seen from Cooper, who has not looked good. People are saying La'el Collins has not been as good at RT as Doug Free last year...and Free was showing decline in 2016.

The Cowboys have given up 12 sacks in these last two games...that is probably one of the worst 2-game stretches in NFL history and definitely more than any 2-game stretch under Romo.

Without Tyron right now, this is a bottom-5 OL in the league...I don't see how you can sit there and say they are still better than those "bums" in 2006-2009. You don't win many games with a bottom-5 OL. If that was the case then the Cowboys would have gone 5-11 or worse during 06-09.

So they go from top 3 to bottom five because Smith? So please explain how Alfred Morris ran for 91 yards on 17 attempts, meaning a whopping five yards per carry and Dallas went up 9-7 in the half, but couldn’t punch it in, if their OL was that awful?

Dak was sacked a whopping ONE time the whole first half when we couldn’t finish drives. Two of the sacks on Dak came in the fourth when we were down by twenty and close to thirty when the game was over and Dallas was just passing..

The protection was more than adequate until the blowout happened..

 

[percyhoward]

It wasn’t the defense that caused Dak to throw balls at Dez’s feet on screens and chuck balls downfield without his feet set to Dez.

Fundamental disagreement here. Not only do the best defenses make the quarterback pay for the kinds of mistakes that he could get away with against an average defense, they can also make him do things he wouldn't characteristically do -- resulting in more of those kinds of mistakes in the first place. Even just playing from behind can take you out of your game.

Prescott, Romo, and Aikman all have passer ratings that are about 30 points lower against the best defenses they faced early in their careers.

 

[TheCoolFan]

So they go from top 3 to bottom five because Smith? So please explain how Alfred Morris ran for 91 yards on 17 attempts, meaning a whopping five yards per carry and Dallas went up 9-7 in the half, but couldn’t punch it in, if their OL was that awful?

Dak was sacked a whopping ONE time the whole first half when we couldn’t finish drives. Two of the sacks on Dak came in the fourth when we were down by twenty and close to thirty when the game was over and Dallas was just passing..

The protection was more than adequate until the blowout happened..

They did well blocking for the run but pass protection was not adequate. They clearly don't trust whoever is filling in at LT and neither does Dak. We already know how basic Garrett's offense is so when they have to change their game plan to accommodate for protection, it affects the entire offensive flow. Even Garrett conceded at halftime that they'd have to throw quick passes because he knew the OL couldn't hold up and give Dak the time he needed. And because Chaz and Bell aren't trusted by Dak, he gets uncomfortable in the pocket like any QB would facing blindside pressure and that affects his timing on every passing play.



Collins was not great at RT either so when both sides are constantly collapsing like that and can't consistently give your QB time to throw then yeah, I'd say that is a Bottom-5 OL. When you have a poor OL, you're not getting into the endzone much and that's what has happened the last 2 weeks.



I know PFF isn't the perfect source but it does tell some of the story. Leary was never as bad as Cooper is this season. Factor in Collins being inconsistent at RT and this OL was a Tyron injury away from being very bad.

 

[diefree666]

They did well blocking for the run but pass protection was not adequate. They clearly don't trust whoever is filling in at LT and neither does Dak. We already know how basic Garrett's offense is so when they have to change their game plan to accommodate for protection, it affects the entire offensive flow. Even Garrett conceded at halftime that they'd have to throw quick passes because he knew the OL couldn't hold up and give Dak the time he needed. And because Chaz and Bell aren't trusted by Dak, he gets uncomfortable in the pocket like any QB would facing blindside pressure and that affects his timing on every passing play.



Collins was not great at RT either so when both sides are constantly collapsing like that and can't consistently give your QB time to throw then yeah, I'd say that is a Bottom-5 OL. When you have a poor OL, you're not getting into the endzone much and that's what has happened the last 2 weeks.



I know PFF isn't the perfect source but it does tell some of the story. Leary was never as bad as Cooper is this season. Factor in Collins being inconsistent at RT and this OL was a Tyron injury away from being very bad.

actually cooper is doing pretty well with what he has next to him at tackle right now.

 

[TheCoolFan]

actually cooper is doing pretty well with what he has next to him at tackle right now.

You mean he hasn't been as awful as Chaz Green or Byron Bell, I agree But he has definitely struggled on his own the last 2 games

 

[mahoneybill]

More proof that Dak will be just fine. Too many knee-jerk reactions here for a quarterback with just 26 games under his belt.

and lately some stone handed receivers

 

[gimmesix]

You mean a QB generally performs better against a worse defense.. amazing insight..

Still has nothing to do with Dak and Romo and early year comparisons. Two totally different rosters and coaching.

You are really just trying to white-wash Dak’s performance as being purely because of the defense. It wasn’t the defense that caused Dak to throw balls at Dez’s feet on screens and chuck balls downfield without his feet set to Dez.

I went back not too long ago and watched Romo's early years as a starter. He was a real good quarterback but you could definitely see that he wasn't at the level he would reach before his career wrapped up. Like Dak, there were throws he just missed especially against real good defenses that could get pressure with their front four.

It was fun for me to go back and see Romo's progress. I hope we see the same from Dak, but it isn't guaranteed.

A lot of fans got carried away after not seeing him make the mistakes that young QBs, even great ones, do last year. He's far from a finished product, although I certainly believe that we could win with him with the right parts around him. Right now, Philly has more of those right parts for Wentz than we do for Dak.

 

[texbumthelife]

The Eagles have the league's 5th-ranked pass defense, according to passer rating. They're the 6th different Top-5 pass defense Prescott has faced in just 27+ career games. Romo did not face any Top-5 pass defenses until 2008, his 3rd season as a starter. The best pass defense Tony faced in the 2006 season was the 6th-ranked Eagles. He posted a 45.5 passer rating in that game.

As comparisons go, the similarities are eerie in this one.

Prescott
vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses (6 games)
110 of 192 (57%) 1155 yd (6.0 ypa) 6 td 6 int 72.3

vs. #6-32 Pass Defenses (21.5 games)
426 of 628 (68%) 4935 yd (7.9 ypa) 36 td 6 int 106.4

Romo
first 6 career games vs. Top 5 Pass Defenses
124 of 213 (58%) 1472 yd (6.9 ypa) 7 td 8 int 74.7

first 21.5 games vs. #6-32 Pass Defenses
315 of 475 (66%) 4198 yd (8.8 ypa) 35 td 17 int 103.8

Best post on this site perhaps all season. Well done.

 

[Risen Star]

Do you remember before we drafted Prescott how close we all were?

Now it's nothing but fighting.

 

[texbumthelife]

You can't mug wide receiver anymore. You can't take out a defenseless receiver the middle anymore. You can't really even touch a guy after 5 yards. If you so much as brush a QB outside of center mass it's a penalty.

They have let the defensive backs play a lot more physically this year. It’s been that way across the league. I think they might be back off on that illegal contact. I do get what you’re saying though.

This doesn’t go out to anyone in particular, but some of you genuinely seem like you WANT Dak to be bad.

The other bad thing is, Wentz outplayed Dak last night so everyone who wanted Wentz and then wanted to be right about Wentz is just lumping on. It’s pretty embarassing, really.

 

[percyhoward]

Do you remember before we drafted Prescott how close we all were?

Keep your friends close...

 

[gmoney112]

I think people forget Dak is just in his 2nd year. That's because he's pretty good, he spoiled us.

He got killed in the SEC and still broke records for efficiency and not turning the ball over.

He'll be fine. I'd like for us to get him some speed on the outside.

 

[Galian Beast]

They have let the defensive backs play a lot more physically this year. It’s been that way across the league. I think they might be back off on that illegal contact. I do get what you’re saying though.

This doesn’t go out to anyone in particular, but some of you genuinely seem like you WANT Dak to be bad.

The other bad thing is, Wentz outplayed Dak last night so everyone who wanted Wentz and then wanted to be right about Wentz is just lumping on. It’s pretty embarassing, really.

I've never had any interest in Wentz.

I'm truly saddened that people jumped on the Dak bandwagon and benched/retired a hall of fame quarterback who gave everything to this franchise. Dak isn't NEARLY as good as Romo and I'm not just talking about 2014 Romo, he isn't as good as 2007 Romo either.

I don't know if Dez has take a major dive in his ability, but much of his decline revolves around not having an elite quarterback. The same can be said for Cole Beasley who is terribly underutilized under Dak.

Prescott is 19th in the league in passing yards and 25th in yards per attempt... there isn't a team in the nfl afraid of his arm.

 

[Galian Beast]

I think people forget Dak is just in his 2nd year. That's because he's pretty good, he spoiled us.

He got killed in the SEC and still broke records for efficiency and not turning the ball over.

He'll be fine. I'd like for us to get him some speed on the outside.

He didn't spoil us, we had a very weak strength of schedule last year.

We do need speed on the outside, though I'm not sure if he is best suited to even make the best of it.