I do not see any difference between that play and the Dez play in 2014 *merged*

OmerV

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C'mon! When a reciever high points the ball, and then turns and travels about 15 feet while controlling the ball, that should always be a catch. They need to adjust, or change the rule to insure it is. Would 16 feet be more convincing, for people to agree to this? Lol, Smh.

:muttley:

There is nothing about distance travelled while going to the ground in the rules. Maybe there should be.
 

OmerV

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There's no reason to deny it. Blandino absolutely ruled that Dez was going to the ground in the act of catching a pass. No vagueness there at all, and no one questions what he meant with those words. Nobody has any problem understanding that part. But that's not where the problem lies.

Blandino didn't have to prove Dez was going to the ground. Dez obviously went to the ground. He had to prove Dez was going to the ground in the act of catching a pass. An official can't just decree that a player was still in the act of catching the pass when he went to the ground. The catch process decides whether or not he's still in the act of catching a pass, and in 2014 the football move completed the catch process.

If you look at it with that understanding, then you can see why Blandino had to address the football move. If you don't, then it makes no sense to you, and you have to put words in his mouth.

What Blandino actually said was reaching for the goal line and extending for the goal line was part of the act of going to the ground. He did not say reaching would have been a football move that would have negated the going to the ground ruling.

Here is something else I found that he said (link below)

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2015/07/20/cowboys-dez-caught-it-blandino-sticks-with-his-ruling/

“If you’re falling to the ground to make the catch, then you have to maintain control when you land,” Blandino said. “And if you reach or do anything with the football, that’s not going to trump that requirement to maintain that control.”
 
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OmerV

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Did he answer why he looked for a football move if it didn’t matter because he was going to the ground and that trumps the 3 part process as he and your side say?

Seems contradictory.

He basically just said they looked at all possible aspects. The only reason he mentioned the "football move" was because that was the specific question he was asked.

As for whether the 3 part process is trumped by the going to the ground rule, read what I printed in my response to Percy above in which Blandino indicates there is nothing a player can do with the ball while in the process of going to the ground that trumps the requirement to maintain control all the way through.

The fact is, Item 1 does not say it kicks in only if a player doesn't have time to complete the 3 step process, it merely says it applies if a player is going to the ground.
 

percyhoward

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He basically just said they looked at all possible aspects. The only reason he mentioned the "football move" was because that was the specific question he was asked.
When asked about the football move in January 2015, Blandino said...
"In order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line.”

Before the 2015 season, the football move was removed from the rule book, and the standard for becoming a runner was changed to "upright long enough." Now, if asked, he could say the football move didn't matter. Never mind that it would only apply to plays that occurred from 2015 onward.

When asked about the football move in July 2015, he said...
“If you reach or do anything with the football, that’s not going to trump that requirement to maintain that control.”

In the space of six months, he went from saying "the reach needed to be with two hands" to saying "the reach didn't matter." What happened in between? This:



When they took the football move out of the book, everyone knew that was a reaction to the overturn of Dez's catch. Pereira didn't just say "rule rewritten." He said "Dez Bryant play...rule rewritten...Football move is gone..." Now Blandino could say the football move didn't matter, and he wouldn't need to worry about having to address the football move with regard to any future controversial rulings.
 

G2

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When asked about the football move in January 2015, Blandino said...
"In order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line.”

Before the 2015 season, the football move was removed from the rule book, and the standard for becoming a runner was changed to "upright long enough." Now, if asked, he could say the football move didn't matter. Never mind that it would only apply to plays that occurred from 2015 onward.

When asked about the football move in July 2015, he said...
“If you reach or do anything with the football, that’s not going to trump that requirement to maintain that control.”

In the space of six months, he went from saying "the reach needed to be with two hands" to saying "the reach didn't matter." What happened in between? This:



When they took the football move out of the book, everyone knew that was a reaction to the overturn of Dez's catch. Pereira didn't just say "rule rewritten." He said "Dez Bryant play...rule rewritten...Football move is gone..." Now Blandino could say the football move didn't matter, and he wouldn't need to worry about having to address the football move with regard to any future controversial rulings.

The Aliens made him say that.
 

MarcusRock

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Before the 2015 season, the football move was removed from the rule book, and the standard for becoming a runner was changed to "upright long enough."

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/2...hange-catch-rule-after-dez-bryant-controversy

"Establishing oneself as a runner now becomes the crucial element of maintaining possession."

"To put it bluntly, the rule itself has not changed."


So now the CONSPIRACY! has moved beyond just Stephen Jones to the entire official Dallas Cowboys website. What kind of rising yeast is this that expands like that? Or did Stephen himself order this "PR move" to make nice with his powerful, oppressive overlords who threatened to kick the Cowboys out of the league, LOL.

THE JIG IS UP.
 
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OmerV

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When asked about the football move in January 2015, Blandino said...
"In order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line.”

Before the 2015 season, the football move was removed from the rule book, and the standard for becoming a runner was changed to "upright long enough." Now, if asked, he could say the football move didn't matter. Never mind that it would only apply to plays that occurred from 2015 onward.

When asked about the football move in July 2015, he said...
“If you reach or do anything with the football, that’s not going to trump that requirement to maintain that control.”

In the space of six months, he went from saying "the reach needed to be with two hands" to saying "the reach didn't matter." What happened in between? This:



When they took the football move out of the book, everyone knew that was a reaction to the overturn of Dez's catch. Pereira didn't just say "rule rewritten." He said "Dez Bryant play...rule rewritten...Football move is gone..." Now Blandino could say the football move didn't matter, and he wouldn't need to worry about having to address the football move with regard to any future controversial rulings.


You conveniently failed to include the full quote from Blandino, which was

"We looked at that aspect of it and in order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line. This is all part of in our view, all part of his momentum in going to the ground and he lost the ball when he hit the ground. That in our view made it incomplete and we feel like it’s a consistent application of the rule as it has been written over the last couple of years.”


Blandino never said reaching with 2 hands would have established Dez as a runner, he said reaching with 2 hands and extending is all part of his momentum in going to the ground. He may could have worded it better, but it was a live interview, and not a written or prepared comment.

You also conveniently ignore his other comments about going to the ground in that same article/interview. You have to understand that snippets of things outside the full context cannot reasonably be used as a definitive argument.
 

MarcusRock

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You conveniently failed to include the full quote from Blandino, which was

"We looked at that aspect of it and in order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line. This is all part of in our view, all part of his momentum in going to the ground and he lost the ball when he hit the ground. That in our view made it incomplete and we feel like it’s a consistent application of the rule as it has been written over the last couple of years.”


Blandino never said reaching with 2 hands would have established Dez as a runner, he said reaching with 2 hands and extending is all part of his momentum in going to the ground. He may could have worded it better, but it was a live interview, and not a written or prepared comment.

You also conveniently ignore his other comments about going to the ground in that same article/interview. You have to understand that snippets of things outside the full context cannot reasonably be used as a definitive argument.

You really have a lot to learn about perpetuating lies and stuff. I mean, it's the 21st Centry and all.
 

percyhoward

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You conveniently failed to include the full quote from Blandino, which was

"We looked at that aspect of it and in order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line. This is all part of in our view, all part of his momentum in going to the ground and he lost the ball when he hit the ground. That in our view made it incomplete and we feel like it’s a consistent application of the rule as it has been written over the last couple of years.”
Again, we already know that he said Dez was going to the ground in the act of catching a pass. I don't think I could hide that fact even if I wanted to. But I'm asking you to look at how he made that determination. The first part says no football move happened, the rest of the quote says he just fell. That's how Blandino justified the application of Item 1.

Blandino never said reaching with 2 hands would have established Dez as a runner, he said reaching with 2 hands and extending is all part of his momentum in going to the ground. He may could have worded it better, but it was a live interview, and not a written or prepared comment.
So now you're saying Blandino saw Dez reach with two hands. When did Dez reach with two hands?

You also conveniently ignore his other comments about going to the ground in that same article/interview. You have to understand that snippets of things outside the full context cannot reasonably be used as a definitive argument.
I'm not hiding anything, I'm just trying to make sense of what happened. Like I have to assume you're trying to do. I'll address whatever issue you bring up (within reason) that you think makes a case that the football move could not be performed by a player who was falling prior to 2015.

What things did he say in that interview (or any other interview prior to the end of the 2014 postseason) that you think help you make that case? Let's talk about them one at a time.
 

OmerV

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Again, we already know that he said Dez was going to the ground in the act of catching a pass. I don't think I could hide that fact even if I wanted to. But I'm asking you to look at how he made that determination. The first part says no football move happened, the rest of the quote says he just fell. That's how Blandino justified the application of Item 1.


So now you're saying Blandino saw Dez reach with two hands. When did Dez reach with two hands?


I'm not hiding anything, I'm just trying to make sense of what happened. Like I have to assume you're trying to do. I'll address whatever issue you bring up (within reason) that you think makes a case that the football move could not be performed by a player who was falling prior to 2015.

What things did he say in that interview (or any other interview prior to the end of the 2014 postseason) that you think help you make that case? Let's talk about them one at a time.

No, I'm not saying Blandino saw Dez reach with 2 hands - what I'm saying is Blandino fumbled thorough his answer a little, as I suspect we all would at times if we had to give spur of the moment answers with a microphone in our face. But it doesn't change the fact that he continued on to say it was all done as part of Dez's momentum going to the ground, and it doesn't change the fact that, Bladino did not say reaching with 2 hands would have established Dez as a runner. You can't just continue to pretend he didn't say the things that you would prefer he hadn't said.

As for making my case, I've been through that exhaustively, just as you have been through your thoughts exhaustively. And we've both repeated and restated our thoughts many times, both of us contributing heavily to 122 pages in this thread. I'm not inclined to start the process over.
 

percyhoward

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No, I'm not saying Blandino saw Dez reach with 2 hands - what I'm saying is Blandino fumbled thorough his answer a little, as I suspect we all would at times if we had to give spur of the moment answers with a microphone in our face.
So now you're saying he was nervous and just said something that didn't make sense. You're not even trying to explain it anymore.

But it doesn't change the fact that he continued on to say it was all done as part of Dez's momentum going to the ground, and it doesn't change the fact that, Bladino did not say reaching with 2 hands would have established Dez as a runner. You can't just continue to pretend he didn't say the things that you would prefer he hadn't said.
I'm assuming he said what he meant to say.

On the official’s overturn of Dez Bryant’s catch on 4th and 2 after review:

“This is very similar to the Calvin Johnson play where Bryant is going to the ground to make the catch and the rule is pretty clear that when you go to the ground to make the catch you have to hold on to it throughout that entire process. When Dez hits the ground with his left arm the ball hits the ground it pops loose into the air and that is all part of the catch process that makes it an incomplete pass.”​

He makes a comparison to another play that was also ruled incomplete, and says Dez went to the ground to make the catch, in the same way Johnson did. He says Dez was still in the act of catching the pass when he went to the ground. He describes what we all see when we watch the end of the play (ball coming out), and reminds us that Item 1 says he's got to hold on when he hits the ground. That if it pops loose, then Dez didn't complete the catch process.

On whether or not Dez Bryant reaching for the goal line could have been considered a football act:

“Yeah, absolutely. We looked at that aspect of it and in order for it to be a football move, it’s got to be more obvious than that, reaching the ball out with both hands, extending it for the goal line. This is all part of in our view, all part of his momentum in going to the ground and he lost the ball when he hit the ground. That in our view made it incomplete and we feel like it’s a consistent application of the rule as it has been written over the last couple of years.”​

He's asked if Dez's reach could be considered a football move, which in 2014 would have completed the catch process. He says they looked at it and said it wasn't clearly a reach, but was instead all part of his momentum in going to the ground. He contrasted Dez's "unclear" reach with "clear" reaches -- the types of reaches that were considered football moves in 2014. He reminds us again that the ball indeed did come loose when Dez hit the ground, and that his application of Item 1 was consistent with the other times it was applied.

That last question, by the way, is the point at which he could have simply said, "The football move does not trump going to the ground," if that were the rule at the time

On why this is a rule and why is the rule written this way:

“I think that’s a fair point. I think people look at that and they say that is a catch but I think it is about consistency and it’s about, ok if we make that a catch then we’ve got to look at all these other plays where receivers go to the ground and where do we draw the line? Currently we have a line where control, both feet and then do something with it. If we make this a catch, then where do we draw the line with a lot of other plays where it’s clearly incomplete by rule and it can become even more inconsistent. It’s something that we’ll review with the Competition Committee – we review every year. I understand that people are upset. It looks like a catch and I don’t think that’s that far-fetched, but it’s something in order to be consistent we have to draw the line somewhere and that’s where the current line is.”​

They ask him to explain why a player who goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass should have to maintain control after he hits the ground. He says that you have to draw the line between "catch" and "no catch" somewhere, and that currently the NFL draws that line at control + 2 feet + football move. If the NFL makes Dez's play (in which the payer did not make a football move) a catch, then they still have to draw a line between plays like Dez's that seem like catches and plays that obviously are not catches, (plays where the receiver hits the ground much sooner after 2 feet down, for example).

Here's a good example of the two different types of plays he's talking about. In any case, he's giving yet another answer in which he's alluding to the catch process and the football move. "Control, both feet, and do something with it" is the catch process, and the "do something with it" part is the football move.

On why Dez Bryant wasn’t marked down where his elbow went down:

“Because he is not a runner yet. He has not established possession. A runner who’s established possession, absolutely. The minute his elbow hits, the minute the knee hits, he’s down by contact. Here, he’s still a receiver attempting to catch the pass so it’s treated differently and the moment that elbow hits the ball hits the ground as well and it pops up so that’s the application of the rule that was done here. He’s not a runner – he’s a receiver trying to gain possession.”​

This is a great question. Aren't you down if any part of your body besides feet or hands touch the ground, and doesn't that end the play? Yes, but only if you have first established yourself as a runner (See "runner" vs. "receiver"). According to Blandino, Dez didn't establish himself as a runner, so he never actually gained possession. (In order to become a runner in 2014, you needed control + 2 feet + football move.) Here, it's very important to realize that a "runner" in 2014 did not necessarily have to be upright, he only had to be in possession of a live ball. So when he says "Dez is not a runner yet," it can't be read as "Dez wasn't upright long enough." That didn't become a rule until 2015. The confusion over the term "runner" is probably the #1 obstacle that prevents people from understanding this stuff.

That's the entire interview. What exactly are you under the impression that I'm pretending he didn't say?
 

Bleedblue1111

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Always. Here's a great intellectual exercise:

Let's say Dez never fell to the ground. When did he catch the ball and become a runner?

Good point.

I wonder what Einstein would think about the rule? They say he didn't control the ball (long enough =time) to become a runner. Yet, he was upright with control for a good 12+ feet. Isn't there a theory of relativity between distance and time?
:huh:
 

percyhoward

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Good point.

I wonder what Einstein would think about the rule? They say he didn't control the ball (long enough =time) to become a runner. Yet, he was upright with control for a good 12+ feet. Isn't there a theory of relativity between distance and time?
His first foot came down just short of the 5, then his second foot hit at the 4.
If he doesn't regain his balance until he's three yards deep in the end zone, then when did he catch it?:huh:
 

percyhoward

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Which is language direct from the 2015 rule. Interesting that Blandino was mentioning Dez becoming a runner a year before the rule was re-worded to "becoming a runner," yet the rule somehow changed to cover something up?
I'm sure you're thinking that' "becoming a runner" has always meant being upright. It hasn't.

You become a runner when you complete the catch process. (and prior to 2015, whether upright or not). Go to 1:30.

Blandino: "Calvin did not have both feet down prior to reaching for the goal line. So this is all one process. This is an incomplete pass. Now I'll show you the difference. Let's go to Julius Thomas against the Giants. Watch what Julius does. He's gonna get control, take two steps...and now reach for the goal line. He has established himself as a runner."

That was from 2013. Then as now, a player is a "receiver" until he completes the catch process. At that point he becomes a "runner."

The rule that changed was the time element that completes the catch process. In 2014 the time element was the football move. That's why Blandino didn't say anything about Johnson or Thomas having to be upright in 2013, or Dez having to be upright in 2014. Then in 2015, they changed the time element to "upright long enough," and completely eliminated the football move. That was the change that Pereira tweeted about when it happened.
 

BlindFaith

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Always. Here's a great intellectual exercise:

Let's say Dez never fell to the ground. When did he catch the ball and become a runner?
Now you're getting close to understanding.

He never did, because he was going to the ground the whole time. So there never was a point. BUT, if he had regained his balance at a hypothetical point, he then would have meet the requirement of completing the catch. THEN the subsequent lunge becomes the act to complete the process of going to the ground. Which in your hypothetical case he never does and simply runs into the end zone, or is tackled or what have you.
 
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