What’s the struggle?

[blumayne38]

Exactly @LocimusPrime i said that somewhere in the thread but @JustChip failed to read it. That’s a misleading stat. Plus I also said if you go to pro football reference and look at daks split for field position it tells a telling story. Dak dosent drive the football so the “bus driver” label he has isn’t even fitting. He’s more like a cheap/solution for a evident problem.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Historic Comparison

Because of an increased number of games played in the regular season, rules opening up the passing game, and offenses simply opting to pass more often , the all-time quarterback leader boards are slowly being taken over by more recent players. This is more true for Passer Rating than any other statistic.

A look at the all time leaders shows 25 of the top 30 QB’s by Passer Rating to be players who are either still playing or who ended their carriers in the past decade. Over the years, completion percentage, yards per attempt and touchdowns have all risen while interceptions have dropped; evidence that the environment today’s QBs are playing in is significantly different than that of years past. With other statistics, you can account for era to make a more fair comparison between quarterbacks who didn’t play at the same time, but for Passer Rating this doesn’t make sense.

Chad Pennington is currently ranked as the 12th best quarterback of all time in terms of Passer Rating while Hall of Famer Joe Namath ranks 182nd. Clearly we have a problem.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Exactly @LocimusPrime i said that somewhere in the thread but @JustChip failed to read it. That’s a misleading stat. Plus I also said if you go to pro football reference and look at daks split for field position it tells a telling story. Dak dosent drive the football so the “bus driver” labor he has isn’t even fitting. He’s more like a cheap/solution for a evident problem.

I didn’t wanna jump in the fray, but time and time again people use two annoying stats when discussing qbs

• Passer rating/qb ratings which is totally geared for dink and dunk
• Wins/losses

 

[LocimusPrime]

One final example from bleacher report


The Extreme Example of Why the QB Rating Sucks
Take the examples below—and yes, I’m intentionally using extremes.
Quarterback One—let’s call him Chad Mennington—dinks and dunks his way through a Sunday afternoon. He finishes 40 for 40 for 100 yards and one TD with two interceptions. I don’t know whether he won the game. And, frankly, it doesn’t matter because anyone watching on TV or in person has long since killed themselves out of boredom.
Quarterback Two—let’s call him Jay Cutler—I’m not even trying anymore—completes 10 passes on 40 attempts for 350 yards and two TDs with zero interceptions.
What would their QB ratings be? Quarterback One would have a rating of 83.3 while Quarterback Two would have a rating of 76. (See Table 1 to the right)

 

[blumayne38]

Historic Comparison

Because of an increased number of games played in the regular season, rules opening up the passing game, and offenses simply opting to pass more often , the all-time quarterback leader boards are slowly being taken over by more recent players. This is more true for Passer Rating than any other statistic.

A look at the all time leaders shows 25 of the top 30 QB’s by Passer Rating to be players who are either still playing or who ended their carriers in the past decade. Over the years, completion percentage, yards per attempt and touchdowns have all risen while interceptions have dropped; evidence that the environment today’s QBs are playing in is significantly different than that of years past. With other statistics, you can account for era to make a more fair comparison between quarterbacks who didn’t play at the same time, but for Passer Rating this doesn’t make sense.

Chad Pennington is currently ranked as the 12th best quarterback of all time in terms of Passer Rating while Hall of Famer Joe Namath ranks 182nd. Clearly we have a problem.

I couldn’t have put this any better myself

 

[LocimusPrime]

Just to get this point through. See how Colin Kaepernick has a higher rating than hmmmmmm
Dan Marino, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman





18 Colin Kaepernick 88.9 2011-2016 sfo
19 Derek Carr 88.8 2014-2018 rai
Andy Dalton 88.8 2011-2018 cin
21 Nick Foles 88.5 2012-2018 3TM
22 Matthew Stafford 88.4 2009-2018 det
23 Carson Palmer 87.9 2004-2017 3TM
24 Daunte Culpepper 87.8 1999-2009 4TM
Jameis Winston 87.8 2015-2018 tam
26 Jeff Garcia 87.5 1999-2009 5TM
27 Alex Smith 87.3 2005-2018 3TM
28 Ryan Tannehill 87.0 2012-2018 mia
29 Otto Graham+ 86.6 1946-1955 cle
30 Dan Marino+ 86.4 1983-1999 mia
Cam Newton 86.4 2011-2018 car
32 Brett Favre+ 86.0 1991-2010 4TM
Trent Green 86.0 1997-2008 4TM
34 David Garrard 85.8 2002-2010 jax
35 Donovan McNabb 85.6 1999-2011 3TM
36 Jay Cutler 85.3 2006-2017 3TM
37 Rich Gannon 84.7 1987-2004 4TM
38 Sam Bradford 84.5 2010-2018 4TM
Case Keenum 84.5 2012-2018 4TM
40 Marc Bulger 84.4 2002-2009 ram
Jim Kelly+ 84.4 1986-1996 buf
42 Joe Flacco 84.1 2008-2018 rav
Eli Manning 84.1 2004-2018 nyg
44 Mark Brunell 84.0 1994-2011 5TM
45 Roger Staubach+ 83.4 1969-1979 dal
46 Steve McNair 82.8 1995-2007 2TM
47 Brian Griese 82.7 1998-2008 4TM
Neil Lomax 82.7 1981-1988 crd
49 Len Dawson+ 82.6 1957-1975 3TM
Sonny Jurgensen+ 82.6 1957-1974 2TM
51 Brad Johnson 82.5 1994-2008 4TM
52 Matt Hasselbeck 82.4 1999-2015 4TM
53 Ken Anderson 81.9 1971-1986 cin
54 Bernie Kosar 81.8 1985-1996 3TM
Neil O'Donnell 81.8 1991-2003 4TM
56 Jason Campbell 81.7 2006-2014 5TM
Danny White 81.7 1976-1988 dal
58 Troy Aikman+ 81.6 1989-2000 dal
59 Randall Cu

 

[blumayne38]

Just to get this point through. See how Colin Kaepernick has a higher rating than hmmmmmm
Dan Marino, Roger Staubach, Troy Aikman





18 Colin Kaepernick 88.9 2011-2016 sfo
19 Derek Carr 88.8 2014-2018 rai
Andy Dalton 88.8 2011-2018 cin
21 Nick Foles 88.5 2012-2018 3TM
22 Matthew Stafford 88.4 2009-2018 det
23 Carson Palmer 87.9 2004-2017 3TM
24 Daunte Culpepper 87.8 1999-2009 4TM
Jameis Winston 87.8 2015-2018 tam
26 Jeff Garcia 87.5 1999-2009 5TM
27 Alex Smith 87.3 2005-2018 3TM
28 Ryan Tannehill 87.0 2012-2018 mia
29 Otto Graham+ 86.6 1946-1955 cle
30 Dan Marino+ 86.4 1983-1999 mia
Cam Newton 86.4 2011-2018 car
32 Brett Favre+ 86.0 1991-2010 4TM
Trent Green 86.0 1997-2008 4TM
34 David Garrard 85.8 2002-2010 jax
35 Donovan McNabb 85.6 1999-2011 3TM
36 Jay Cutler 85.3 2006-2017 3TM
37 Rich Gannon 84.7 1987-2004 4TM
38 Sam Bradford 84.5 2010-2018 4TM
Case Keenum 84.5 2012-2018 4TM
40 Marc Bulger 84.4 2002-2009 ram
Jim Kelly+ 84.4 1986-1996 buf
42 Joe Flacco 84.1 2008-2018 rav
Eli Manning 84.1 2004-2018 nyg
44 Mark Brunell 84.0 1994-2011 5TM
45 Roger Staubach+ 83.4 1969-1979 dal
46 Steve McNair 82.8 1995-2007 2TM
47 Brian Griese 82.7 1998-2008 4TM
Neil Lomax 82.7 1981-1988 crd
49 Len Dawson+ 82.6 1957-1975 3TM
Sonny Jurgensen+ 82.6 1957-1974 2TM
51 Brad Johnson 82.5 1994-2008 4TM
52 Matt Hasselbeck 82.4 1999-2015 4TM
53 Ken Anderson 81.9 1971-1986 cin
54 Bernie Kosar 81.8 1985-1996 3TM
Neil O'Donnell 81.8 1991-2003 4TM
56 Jason Campbell 81.7 2006-2014 5TM
Danny White 81.7 1976-1988 dal
58 Troy Aikman+ 81.6 1989-2000 dal
59 Randall Cu

@JustChip where did you go? With all you’re facts bruh

 

[JustChip]

@LocimusPrime and @blumayne38 - guys, I'm not saying Dak is better, worse or the same as any other QB based on QBR or any other stat for that matter. I'm not even saying Dak is better, worse or the same as any other QB based on empirical observation. But, I think stats comparing an individual against himself in substantially the same situation (some team, OC, etc.) is relevant, particular when taken over a large enough sample size. If the stats nighman presented, including QBR, are accurate, it simply shows that Dak is substantially the same throughout the game. That's not a comparison to any other QB - just a comparison to himself. That is contrary to being a "slow starter".

 

[JustChip]

@JustChip where did you go? With all you’re facts bruh

Still here, bro.

 

[LocimusPrime]

@LocimusPrime and @blumayne38 - guys, I'm not saying Dak is better, worse or the same as any other QB based on QBR or any other stat for that matter. I'm not even saying Dak is better, worse or the same as any other QB based on empirical observation. But, I think stats comparing an individual against himself in substantially the same situation (some team, OC, etc.) is relevant, particular when taken over a large enough sample size. If the stats nighman presented, including QBR, are accurate, it simply shows that Dak is substantially the same throughout the game. That's not a comparison to any other QB - just a comparison to himself. That is contrary to being a "slow starter".

Hey chip! This wasn’t specifically pointed at you bro...I was just discussing the qb rating flaws.
I really didn’t even wanna get into this fray but the qb rating thingy triggers me lol

Both you guys are great posters

 

[JustChip]

Hey chip! This wasn’t specifically pointed at you bro...I was just discussing the qb rating flaws.
I really didn’t even wanna get into this fray but the qb rating thingy triggers me lol

Both you guys are great posters

No problem, my friend. I'm not taking it personal or taking offense. Frankly, I'm in line with your points. I'm not a stats guy at all, well mostly not at all. The same stats can be used to support whatever position one wants to make. And comparing any stat in todays environment with the same stat from 20 years ago is folly.

 

[Nightman]

I agree that qb raring is absolute trash. You are rewarded waaaaaaay more for completions than yardage so yes dink and dunks would get you a high rating.

Heck if you went 19-20 for 75 yds and 1 TD, you’d probably get a near perfect rating



https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/stat-sheet-misconceptions-passer-rating

What’s Worth More?

The values that were used to determine the passer rating were chosen based on league averages from years ago, but even then, they didn’t make sense. Here is an example of why:


Quarterback A throws three straight passes, completing them each for three yards. Plugging three completions, nine yards, three attempts, zero touchdowns, and zero interceptions into the equation above, and you get a quarterback rating of 97.92, which is a very good rating.

Quarterback B throws three straight passes, the first two land incomplete, and the third is caught for a 30 yard gain. Putting those numbers into the equation, you get a quarterback rating of 71.53. In the first situation, the offense is now facing fourth down, where in the second the ball just went 30 yards down field.



The first quarterback has a rating of an all pro, while the second has the rating of someone fighting for their job.

The equation is basically saying that a completion is worth as much as 20 yards, a touchdown is worth as much as 80 yards, and an interception is worth -100 yards. It makes sense that touchdowns are worth more than yards, and interceptions are negative, but, as the example illustrates, completions are very much overvalued because in reality, they only help if they gain yards.

The relative values of touchdowns and interceptions don’t make sense either. You already know that I believe the interception is overvalued as an indicator for QBs. As for touchdowns, in a game, it doesn’t matter if a quarterback were to run for one or pass for one, yet there would be a significant difference in their passer rating. I would argue a touchdown is overvalued as wel

that is the definition of SSS........small sample size

 

[JustChip]

@blumayne38, my original response to your post was not intended to be combative or offensive. I'm really not a combative person. I was simply trying to point out that you had been arguing Dak was a slow starter and when someone pushed back on that specific point, you changed to he was the same throughout and that was the problem. Frankly, I wasn't even saying you are wrong about Dak, which is why I said everyone has a right to their opinion.

 

[Nightman]

Historic Comparison

Because of an increased number of games played in the regular season, rules opening up the passing game, and offenses simply opting to pass more often , the all-time quarterback leader boards are slowly being taken over by more recent players. This is more true for Passer Rating than any other statistic.

A look at the all time leaders shows 25 of the top 30 QB’s by Passer Rating to be players who are either still playing or who ended their carriers in the past decade. Over the years, completion percentage, yards per attempt and touchdowns have all risen while interceptions have dropped; evidence that the environment today’s QBs are playing in is significantly different than that of years past. With other statistics, you can account for era to make a more fair comparison between quarterbacks who didn’t play at the same time, but for Passer Rating this doesn’t make sense.

Chad Pennington is currently ranked as the 12th best quarterback of all time in terms of Passer Rating while Hall of Famer Joe Namath ranks 182nd. Clearly we have a problem.

That is because they have become much better QBs

People love to look back with tinted glasses but the things QBs do today dwarf what they did years ago and the Defenses are so much more advanced

It is called evolution and efficientlcy

If Pennington went back to the 60s with his skillset he would dominate
If Namath played today he would be worse than Mark Sanchez

 

[JustChip]

That is because they have become much better QBs

People love to look back with tinted glasses but the things QBs do today dwarf what they did years ago and the Defenses are so much more advanced

It is called evolution and efficientlcy

If Pennington went back to the 60s with his skillset he would dominate
If Namath played today he would be worse than Mark Sanchez

It's also a far more star QB-centric environment today. Excluding Philly's very unique situation, a team loses it's QB today and they're doomed. No Johnny Unitas/Earl Morrall or Craig Morton/Roger Staubach situations.

 

[JD_KaPow]

whats the deal with daks super slow start in games? Is it that he needs time to get his arm going? Or is he just that confused by defenses that it takes a while for him to adjust to the flow of the game...idk maybe he fixes this problem next year. Super slow starts in games are what probably kept this team from winning 3-4 more games including the divisional...peace

We scored a TD on our first drive in the divisional game.

Dallas was above average in first quarter points, despite being below average in total points per game.

 

[LocimusPrime]

Nope.....I’ll just make this general statement. I no universe is Colin Kaep better than Dan Marino and Troy Aikman

 

[Sevenup3000]

Yards, TOP, 1st downs, passing TDs were all the same 1st half vs 2nd half

Only big difference was 9 rushing Tds in the second half of games vs 4 in the first half....every other stat was surprisingly equal

your whole argument is anecdotal and a fallacy

He fits right in with the rest of the moronic Dak haters...make crap up to fit their agenda and utterly disregard facts and reason.

 

[blumayne38]

He fits right in with the rest of the moronic Dak haters...make crap up to fit their agenda and utterly disregard facts and reason.

What do you say about daks 7 TDs when drives start from the 20-25 yard line? I’ll tell you he isn’t even a “bus driver” he is a cheap alternative that may allow us to bolster the defense more in the future. He can’t drive the football unless the defense is playing out of its mind and causes a turnover or two and gives him great field position...and so bringing up QBR ain’t a way to fit you’re argument and agenda to make people believe Dak is a elite QB. Please man @Sevenup3000

 

[blumayne38]

We scored a TD on our first drive in the divisional game.

Dallas was above average in first quarter points, despite being below average in total points per game.

cooper got wide open you could have hit him for that TD, and since then nothing but stalled out drives and bad throws...horrible just horrible QBing