Salary Cap fact versus fiction

[Nightman]

It is a problem if you do not feel his play can match the pay.

Earl Thomas signed a 4 year, $55,000,000 contract with the Baltimore Ravens, including a $20,000,000 signing bonus, $32,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $13,750,000. In 2019, Thomas will earn a base salary of $2,000,000 and a signing bonus of $20,000,000, while carrying a cap hit of $7,000,000 and a dead cap value of $32,000,000.

Sorry I don't think his ability matches the contract at this point and time in his career. However if you feel his skill level is still to that level then we just disagree. I don't buy into paying for a name it comes down to do you think his skill level today is at that value?

that is because you are scared of your own shadow..... I want to win now and I am not afraid if a contract goes bad...just dump it and move on the next one

 

[Doomsday101]

that is because you are scared of your own shadow..... I want to win now and I am not afraid if a contract goes bad...just dump it and move on the next one

Not scared of my own shadow, I disagree with you that is not being scared. You seem to think you go out and buy championships Commanders have done that and failed, Minn tried to do it and failed and they not only fail they fail and end up at the bottom. I want to see Dallas use FA to fill holes, I want to see key FA that are on this team taken care of and see them continue drafting good players. Your not afraid yet seem to be the one in panic mode. Seems to me those teams who are letting these players go know they are not worth to them the asking price the player wants

 

[xwalker]

It was a terrible signing. As noted, you don’t give a “stop gap” a multi year deal.

I was 1 year, 4M.

 

[xwalker]

2 hours til brackets and I have time soooo... let's try to make the board a little smarter.

Idiom: The cap keeps rising so pushing money off means it is worth less and is a good strategy.
FICTION: This is a very common and accepted bunch of nonsense. Why?? Because you know what else goes up? Player contracts. You need more money to sign the next guy because the next guy is on a higher salary scale. You are competing in any given window and you've shorted yourself for that window to benefit one that will quickly be in the past. Any GM who hands out 50M+ in restructures then wins 7 or less games should be fired week 17.

Idiom: The salary cap isn't real and cap hell doesn't exist.
HARD MEH: This is one of those things people like to say and sound smart but they will eventually capitulate and admit teams have to make tough decisions versus the cap. Those tough decisions are very real for the teams making them. The cap has a ton of built in flexibility but all money does come due.

Idiom: There are 3 ways to improve a roster: Drafting, FA and trades.
HARD MEH: This is one of those meaninglessly true statements always taken out of context. Drafting is numero uno by a mile. Trading is very limited and free agency is more about finding value and especially among un-drafted guys than it is adding super stars. Superstars in FA are a terrible "hit rate". In truth, the 2nd best way to improve a roster is to exercise good cap mgmt. That way you maintain good players and continue to develop depth going forward without coming in 1 man short because you cut a guy and paid him anyway. Trades are very tough because the team you are buying from knows the player/s you are acquiring better than you. Hard to outsmart someone on a guy they saw daily during the NFL season for years.

Idiom: But we can free up 70M THIS easy.
MOSTLY FACT: It is very easy to flip deals because most players want that guaranteed money that handing them a check today delivers. They can claim the interest on that large sum of money. BUT, not if the agent wants a longer term deal you can't. The agent can play hardball knowing you have a large cap hit you don't want to eat.
This is a lot like knowing you can take out a pay day loan or remortgage your house for money. These things are factually possible but also still really desperate acts that will almost certainly cost you more money in the end.

Idiom: So we should just never sign anyone ever then.
MOSTLY FICTION: Teams have to "pay" for draft mistakes. See Cam Fleming. Chaz Green was trash thus that expenditure was VERY necessary. WR misses amongst later picks made signing Hurns a reality. But you merely want to fill absolute holes so you can draft true to your board. You don't go get shiny player X because you think he makes you better. A lot of the FA safeties would have been superior to Jeff Heath. Very, very few of them that have already signed would have been a better value.

Idiom: The only cap that matters is this year.
FICTION x 10: This is where fan GMs get in the most trouble. They could care less about future seasons but the NFL is a business and businesses very much do care. They have 3 and 5 year plans. Transformation projects and overall directions that go well beyond 1 season or year. DAL has a great cap situation but they also know they have to pay DLaw, Zeke, Dak and Amari. These are elite players at expensive positions. You have to plan for that. 120M cap space in a future season? You can basically assume 75M of that is gone for these 4 guys. DAL planned ahead smartly. Compare to Philly who have ~30M free but a cap projection of 30m per season for Wentz. Franchising Wentz if needed to bide time for deal would essentially be impossible without drastic moves elsewhere.

This stuff would frustrate me far less if Dallas fans hadn't witnessed the failure of credit card cap management and Free Agency as a primary roster building pillar for a decade plus. Restructuring guys with injuries: Lee, Romo, Dez. Restructuring guys who were crazy: Ratliff. Restructuring guys who were simply poor cap values: Brandon Carr/late in career Witten.

It is quite OK to NOT be off-season champs. That title means exactly zero come week 1 much less by the Super Bowl.

The Cowboys build restructures into contracts. They can restructure those contracts at anytime without permission from the player/agent. It's similar to team options for an additional year on a players contract.

Only renegotiated contracts (pay cuts) require an agreement with the player/agent.

Cap Space is not a good indicator of a team's true cap status. Two teams could have the same cap space but team A has already given their QB a big contract while team B is getting ready to give their QB a big contract. Team A is has more effective cap space in that situation if all other issues are similar between the two teams.

Teams can operate at a level that appears to be over the cap every year without the bill ever coming due because there are always future years to push money into. I covered this in extreme detail here years ago.

There is a way to estimate the burn-rate or a correlating effective cap space to see if a team is headed for cap problems but it's very complicated and not available to fans as far as I know (can be calculated from available data)

 

[Nightman]

Not scared of my own shadow, I disagree with you that is not being scared. You seem to think you go out and buy championships Commanders have done that and failed, Minn tried to do it and failed and they not only fail they fail and end up at the bottom. I want to see Dallas use FA to fill holes, I want to see key FA that are on this team taken care of and see them continue drafting good players. Your not afraid yet seem to be the one in panic mode. Seems to me those teams who are letting these players go know they are not worth to them the asking price the player wants

DEN did it
SEA did it
PHI did it
LAR got close
JAX got close
NE uses big time FA.... Gilmore, Revis, Talib, Chung, McCourty, Sheard, Clayborn, Long, Hogan, AMendola, Moncrief, Gordon, Moss, Blount, DLewis

 

[Doomsday101]

DEN did it
SEA did it
PHI did it
LAR got close
JAX got close
NE uses big time FA.... Gilmore, Revis, Talib, Chung, McCourty, Sheard, Clayborn, Long, Hogan, AMendola, Moncrief, Gordon, Moss, Blount, DLewis

Most of those deals were not high dollar deals Moss went to them on a 1 year deal 2.5 mill. McCourty was a Pats draft pick not a FA pickup. Gilmore was 26 when picked up as a FA and is on a 5 year deal. As I mentioned I don't have an issue with FA players who are in the prime of their career, that is a big difference paying out big money in the prime and doing so on the downhill side of a career.

 

[TwistedL0g1k]

Not one thing I wrote is incorrect and you obviously don't understand a thing if you are still complaining about Romo's contract

You said:

Dead Money is simply the receipt for cap savings already used in the past when the cap was lower

This is not the definition of dead money, sorry. That is why I quoted the actual definition for you from a reputable source.

I'm not complaining about Romo's contract. You brought up Romo's contract as an example, which I responded to.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

DEN did it
SEA did it
PHI did it
LAR got close
JAX got close
NE uses big time FA.... Gilmore, Revis, Talib, Chung, McCourty, Sheard, Clayborn, Long, Hogan, AMendola, Moncrief, Gordon, Moss, Blount, DLewis

Seattle drafted their SB
Rams traded and drafted their almost SB

Chung drafted by Pat's in 2009
Mccourty drafted by Pat's in 2010
Sheard signed on a deal worht $5M AAV(Cowboys do these all the time
Clayborn signed a deal worth $5M, didnt contribute at all last season, just got cut.
Long signs 1 yr contract for $2.4M
Hogan was signed as a RFA with a 3 yr contract worth $4M AAV, again more contracts we like to do and not a big FA signing.
Moncrief has never played for the Patriots
Josh Gordon was acquired in a trade not free agency
Blunt signed for the minimum
Dion Lewis was out of the league for two years and signed a minimum non-guaranteed contract with the Pat's to get back in the league.

 

[Sydla]

I was 1 year, 4M.

Nope. Nolan Carroll was a 3 year deal (really 2 years). He had 4MM in guaranteed money. The Cowboys had to take a dead money hit in Year 2 of $2MM after cutting him in October the previous season because they spread his guaranteed money over 2 seasons. You don't do that for a one year stop gap. They thought he could play and that was obvious when Marinelli brought him in and tried to sign him the year before too.

The fact you guys continue to try to spin this as anything other than a bad signing is hilarious.

 

[Sydla]

Seattle drafted their SB
Rams traded and drafted their almost SB

Chung drafted by Pat's in 2009
Mccourty drafted by Pat's in 2010
Sheard signed on a deal worht $5M AAV(Cowboys do these all the time
Clayborn signed a deal worth $5M, didnt contribute at all last season, just got cut.
Long signs 1 yr contract for $2.4M
Hogan was signed as a RFA with a 3 yr contract worth $4M AAV, again more contracts we like to do and not a big FA signing.
Moncrief has never played for the Patriots
Josh Gordon was acquired in a trade not free agency
Blunt signed for the minimum
Dion Lewis was out of the league for two years and signed a minimum non-guaranteed contract with the Pat's to get back in the league.

Small nit. Chung left and then came back. So technically, yes, he was a FA this time around. I think he's talking about Jason McCourty, who was a FA, not Devin.

 

[Doomsday101]

Seattle drafted their SB
Rams traded and drafted their almost SB

Chung drafted by Pat's in 2009
Mccourty drafted by Pat's in 2010
Sheard signed on a deal worht $5M AAV(Cowboys do these all the time
Clayborn signed a deal worth $5M, didnt contribute at all last season, just got cut.
Long signs 1 yr contract for $2.4M
Hogan was signed as a RFA with a 3 yr contract worth $4M AAV, again more contracts we like to do and not a big FA signing.
Moncrief has never played for the Patriots
Josh Gordon was acquired in a trade not free agency
Blunt signed for the minimum
Dion Lewis was out of the league for two years and signed a minimum non-guaranteed contract with the Pat's to get back in the league.

Bingo!!!! Pats are not out signing big name FA to top dollar deals. Yes they are active in FA and look for players to fill gaps but they are not going after big dollar contracts. I'm not looking for Dallas to copy anyone but I do expect Dallas to use FA wisely not just go out throwing money around especially when I know we have key players of our own who deserve big contracts.

 

[Sydla]

Seattle drafted their SB
Rams traded and drafted their almost SB

Chung drafted by Pat's in 2009
Mccourty drafted by Pat's in 2010
Sheard signed on a deal worht $5M AAV(Cowboys do these all the time
Clayborn signed a deal worth $5M, didnt contribute at all last season, just got cut.
Long signs 1 yr contract for $2.4M
Hogan was signed as a RFA with a 3 yr contract worth $4M AAV, again more contracts we like to do and not a big FA signing.
Moncrief has never played for the Patriots
Josh Gordon was acquired in a trade not free agency
Blunt signed for the minimum
Dion Lewis was out of the league for two years and signed a minimum non-guaranteed contract with the Pat's to get back in the league.

Seattle used FA more than people realize.

They made some pretty big FA signings in the 2014 preseason. Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett were their starting edge players and both were FAs. Avril was considered a pretty big FA signing. One of their starting interior players, Tony McDaniel was another FA signing that offseason. Another important DT, Kevin Williams, was also a FA signed. One of the myths has always been the Seahawks built that defense through the draft when in fact, the very offseason, they made 3-4 FA signings along the DL and all played big roles in the defense's success.

 

[Nightman]

Seattle drafted their SB
Rams traded and drafted their almost SB

Chung drafted by Pat's in 2009
Mccourty drafted by Pat's in 2010
Sheard signed on a deal worht $5M AAV(Cowboys do these all the time
Clayborn signed a deal worth $5M, didnt contribute at all last season, just got cut.
Long signs 1 yr contract for $2.4M
Hogan was signed as a RFA with a 3 yr contract worth $4M AAV, again more contracts we like to do and not a big FA signing.
Moncrief has never played for the Patriots
Josh Gordon was acquired in a trade not free agency
Blunt signed for the minimum
Dion Lewis was out of the league for two years and signed a minimum non-guaranteed contract with the Pat's to get back in the league.

Signed and traded are the same thing....aggressive team building and usually comes with an extension

SEA signed Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, Matt Flynn, MLynch, ZMiller, MBennett, CAvril, CClemons, PMcQuistan.......FAIL

LAR signed BCooks, RWoods, AWhitworth, JSullivan, NSuh, MBarron, MPeters, Talib, DFowler, RWilson......FAIL

NE- Chung left and came back as FA, McCourty is James not his brother, mixed up Moncrief and Dorsett but Moncrief just signed there too and the others(Gilmore, Revis, Talib, Moss, Hogan, Amendola, Gordon, Sheard, Clayborn, Long, Blount, DLewis) were all FAs like I said.....they are just better at picking them I guess......FAIL....forgot TBrown, CPatterson, DShelton and KVanNoy

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Seattle used FA more than people realize.

They made some pretty big FA signings in the 2014 preseason. Cliff Avril and Michael Bennett were their starting edge players and both were FAs. Avril was considered a pretty big FA signing. One of their starting interior players, Tony McDaniel was another FA signing that offseason. Another important DT, Kevin Williams, was also a FA signed. One of the myths has always been the Seahawks built that defense through the draft when in fact, the very offseason, they made 3-4 FA signings along the DL and all played big roles in the defense's success.

There were 3-4 DL signings, William's was a very small factor of their success to say the least. But there's absolutely no denying the Seahawks were built through the draft, a myth is far from the truth.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Signed and traded are the same thing....aggressive team building and usually comes with an extension

SEA signed Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, Matt Flynn, MLynch, ZMiller, MBennett, CAvril, CClemons, PMcQuistan.......FAIL

LAR signed BCooks, RWoods, AWhitworth, JSullivan, NSuh, MBarron, MPeters, Talib, DFowler, RWilson......FAIL

NE- Chung left and came back as FA, McCourty is James not his brother, mixed up Moncrief and Dorsett but Moncrief just signed there too and the others(Gilmore, Revis, Talib, Moss, Hogan, Amendola, Gordon, Sheard, Clayborn, Long, Blount, DLewis) were all FAs like I said.....they are just better at picking them I guess......FAIL....forgot TBrown, CPatterson, DShelton and KVanNoy

Signed and traded are the same thing....? In what world?

Lol Seahawks signed very few contributors and quite a few busts. That's a huge fail on your part.

 

[Sydla]

There were 3-4 DL signings, William's was a very small factor of their success to say the least. But there's absolutely no denying the Seahawks were built through the draft, a myth is far from the truth.

Williams started 8 games and logged 3 sacks and over 30 tackles from the DT spot. That's not "small".

And no one said that the Seahawks didn't rely on the draft. But there has long been this myth that the Seahawks were an organic, almost exclusively home grown team and that's simply not true. Further, we don't even come close to what the Seahawks did in 2014 in terms of bringing in players.

So again, comparing how we do it to say the Seahawks in 2014 is a failed comparison. If anything the 2014 Seahawks are the exact opposite of us. They went into that season with clear needs along the DL and went out and added some really good upgrades in the form of Avril, Bennett and McDaniel. That's not what we do at all.

 

[817Gill]

2 hours til brackets and I have time soooo... let's try to make the board a little smarter.

Idiom: The cap keeps rising so pushing money off means it is worth less and is a good strategy.
FICTION: This is a very common and accepted bunch of nonsense. Why?? Because you know what else goes up? Player contracts. You need more money to sign the next guy because the next guy is on a higher salary scale. You are competing in any given window and you've shorted yourself for that window to benefit one that will quickly be in the past. Any GM who hands out 50M+ in restructures then wins 7 or less games should be fired week 17.

Idiom: The salary cap isn't real and cap hell doesn't exist.
HARD MEH: This is one of those things people like to say and sound smart but they will eventually capitulate and admit teams have to make tough decisions versus the cap. Those tough decisions are very real for the teams making them. The cap has a ton of built in flexibility but all money does come due.

Idiom: There are 3 ways to improve a roster: Drafting, FA and trades.
HARD MEH: This is one of those meaninglessly true statements always taken out of context. Drafting is numero uno by a mile. Trading is very limited and free agency is more about finding value and especially among un-drafted guys than it is adding super stars. Superstars in FA are a terrible "hit rate". In truth, the 2nd best way to improve a roster is to exercise good cap mgmt. That way you maintain good players and continue to develop depth going forward without coming in 1 man short because you cut a guy and paid him anyway. Trades are very tough because the team you are buying from knows the player/s you are acquiring better than you. Hard to outsmart someone on a guy they saw daily during the NFL season for years.

Idiom: But we can free up 70M THIS easy.
MOSTLY FACT: It is very easy to flip deals because most players want that guaranteed money that handing them a check today delivers. They can claim the interest on that large sum of money. BUT, not if the agent wants a longer term deal you can't. The agent can play hardball knowing you have a large cap hit you don't want to eat.
This is a lot like knowing you can take out a pay day loan or remortgage your house for money. These things are factually possible but also still really desperate acts that will almost certainly cost you more money in the end.

Idiom: So we should just never sign anyone ever then.
MOSTLY FICTION: Teams have to "pay" for draft mistakes. See Cam Fleming. Chaz Green was trash thus that expenditure was VERY necessary. WR misses amongst later picks made signing Hurns a reality. But you merely want to fill absolute holes so you can draft true to your board. You don't go get shiny player X because you think he makes you better. A lot of the FA safeties would have been superior to Jeff Heath. Very, very few of them that have already signed would have been a better value.

Idiom: The only cap that matters is this year.
FICTION x 10: This is where fan GMs get in the most trouble. They could care less about future seasons but the NFL is a business and businesses very much do care. They have 3 and 5 year plans. Transformation projects and overall directions that go well beyond 1 season or year. DAL has a great cap situation but they also know they have to pay DLaw, Zeke, Dak and Amari. These are elite players at expensive positions. You have to plan for that. 120M cap space in a future season? You can basically assume 75M of that is gone for these 4 guys. DAL planned ahead smartly. Compare to Philly who have ~30M free but a cap projection of 30m per season for Wentz. Franchising Wentz if needed to bide time for deal would essentially be impossible without drastic moves elsewhere.

This stuff would frustrate me far less if Dallas fans hadn't witnessed the failure of credit card cap management and Free Agency as a primary roster building pillar for a decade plus. Restructuring guys with injuries: Lee, Romo, Dez. Restructuring guys who were crazy: Ratliff. Restructuring guys who were simply poor cap values: Brandon Carr/late in career Witten.

It is quite OK to NOT be off-season champs. That title means exactly zero come week 1 much less by the Super Bowl.

I love this post. This is the information you guys need to see. Is SJ doing perfect? No. Do I want to grab at least 1 impact guy in FA? Yes. But the FO is way more right than wrong in their approach, the key is going to be if they know when to step out and grab someone. If they can make that key decision then they are doing a lot more good than this forum thinks.

 

[Sydla]

I love this post. This is the information you guys need to see. Is SJ doing perfect? No. Do I want to grab at least 1 impact guy in FA? Yes. But the FO is way more right than wrong in their approach, the key is going to be if they know when to step out and grab someone. If they can make that key decision then they are doing a lot more good than this forum thinks.

What's the measure/basis for this statement?

 

[Rockport]

The Cowboys build restructures into contracts. They can restructure those contracts at anytime without permission from the player/agent. It's similar to team options for an additional year on a players contract.

Only renegotiated contracts (pay cuts) require an agreement with the player/agent.

Cap Space is not a good indicator of a team's true cap status. Two teams could have the same cap space but team A has already given their QB a big contract while team B is getting ready to give their QB a big contract. Team A is has more effective cap space in that situation if all other issues are similar between the two teams.

Teams can operate at a level that appears to be over the cap every year without the bill ever coming due because there are always future years to push money into. I covered this in extreme detail here years ago.

There is a way to estimate the burn-rate or a correlating effective cap space to see if a team is headed for cap problems but it's very complicated and not available to fans as far as I know (can be calculated from available data)

It always comes due at some point. You can’t just keep kicking the can down the road.

 

[QuincyCarterEra]

Williams started 8 games and logged 3 sacks and over 30 tackles from the DT spot. That's not "small".

And no one said that the Seahawks didn't rely on the draft. But there has long been this myth that the Seahawks were an organic, almost exclusively home grown team and that's simply not true. Further, we don't even come close to what the Seahawks did in 2014 in terms of bringing in players.

So again, comparing how we do it to say the Seahawks in 2014 is a failed comparison. If anything the 2014 Seahawks are the exact opposite of us. They went into that season with clear needs along the DL and went out and added some really good upgrades in the form of Avril, Bennett and McDaniel. That's not what we do at all.

Oh you're talking about the 2014 Seahawks. I'm talking about the 2013 Seahawks when they won their 1st Super Bowl. William's wasnt on the team for their SB run. He wasnt even a "small" part of their success, he wasnt a part of their success at all lol.

Their 2013 starters Drafted or UDFA by Seahawks
Wilson
Baldwin
Tate
Okung
Carpenter
Unger
Sweezy
Bryant
Mebane
Wagner
Irvin
Smith
Wright
Sherman
Browner
Chancellor
Thomas

Those are just the starters drafted. Now compare that to the contributors that weren't in house:
Marshawn, Bennett, Avril, McDaniel, Clemons, McQuistan.

McDaniel prior to joining the Seahawks:
In 7 seasons had 8.5 sacks and averaged 17 tackles per season. We make those signings all the time lol. That's some revisionist history.