Salary Cap fact versus fiction

[Doomsday101]

I pointed to 20 years because the poster tried to argue we are not a long suffering fan base.

We are the perfect example of the long suffering fan base.

I agree it is frustrating and easy to take it out on this current group of players. As a fan dating back to 65 who has seen every SB this team has played in and won as well as lost, it is frustrating to see this team take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. This current group does give me hope as they have shown the ability to overcome a bad start and to continue to fight. I do understand the frustration and I guess for me I put a season behind me win or lose as the next season approaches even those SB years once it is over I move on to the next.

 

[Nightman]

And these contracts were in house re-signings, so it's not like people can be like, "see this is why you don't sign FAs to big deals!".

To add to your point, Romo was a June 1st cut, splitting his dead cap between two years. Dallas rolled over the savings from making him a J1 cut into 18, basically covering that dead cap with the money "saved" in 17.
Otherwords, he really didn't hurt the cap in 18, even though he hadn't been on the roster in 2017.
And with that move, Dallas had some free cap in 2017 as a JIC for any injury signing/trade if they had to make a move.

It was a smart move, even though they had "dead cap" in 2018.

They never talk about the roll-over or the tiny cap hits that mitigate Dead Money

For all the complaining about Romo's contract he never had a cap hit over 14.9m until his very last season..... his low cap numbers helped sign many many players they otherwise would have missed out on

The Cowboys had 32m in Dead Money last year but they also had 12m in unused cap space so they didn't even spend the money they had.... they rolled-over 11.7m to 2019 but refuse to max out the cap in preparation for a bunch of extensions coming up the next couple years

 

[Nightman]

I’m talking about the other teams who did it, not even considering the pats

I am just adding to your point that trying to build a Dynasty like the Pats is fool's errand

It is much easier to go all in and take a shot when you have a good QB and a solid D

 

[Nightman]

I agree it is frustrating and easy to take it out on this current group of players. As a fan dating back to 65 who has seen every SB this team has played in and won as well as lost, it is frustrating to see this team take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. This current group does give me hope as they have shown the ability to overcome a bad start and to continue to fight. I do understand the frustration and I guess for me I put a season behind me win or lose as the next season approaches even those SB years once it is over I move on to the next.

How does spending on a handful of FAs handicap this group of young stars?

It doesn't .... it only adds to it.... adding a couple veteran ring chasers is always a good idea with a young team

 

[Nightman]

So why are we wrapping up our whole future into extending guys that we are looking for ways to get out of their contracts the moment they sign?

Why not sign FAs or extend our own players that we want to keep for the full 3-5 years? Whether it is trades, FA or the Draft you have to pick the right players..... the process offers no protections on their own.... the Draft isn't inherently safer than FA...... it hurts when you blow a 1st or 2nd round pick

 

[Doomsday101]

How does spending on a handful of FAs handicap this group of young stars?

It doesn't .... it only adds to it.... adding a couple veteran ring chasers is always a good idea with a young team

It does if it makes in impossible to get others resigned. I have no issue using the mid-level FA like Looney and getting young talent in here. People will point to the Rams and go see they made it, how about Jacksonville? They have spent a boat load on FA and do nothing and there are more teams out there who have overspent trying to buy a championship and it does not work. Nothing wrong with getting good solid talent via FA but I still think much of what brings championships is from the draft and being able to resign your own. I think Dak, Zeke, Cooper and I also think they will get a long term deal done with DLaw is not going to be cheap but can be done unless they go out and start spending big in FA then I think that pretty much is out the window.

 

[Sydla]

I agree it is frustrating and easy to take it out on this current group of players. As a fan dating back to 65 who has seen every SB this team has played in and won as well as lost, it is frustrating to see this team take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. This current group does give me hope as they have shown the ability to overcome a bad start and to continue to fight. I do understand the frustration and I guess for me I put a season behind me win or lose as the next season approaches even those SB years once it is over I move on to the next.

Who is taking it out on the players?

People aren't criticizing the players. They are criticizing the leadership of this team, specifically the Jones boys, for their failure to use every tool at their disposal to make the team the best team they can. Jerry wasted the best years of Romo and Ware and Witten and Dez because he and his son buggled roster building then. They are likely doing it again.

So if anyone isn't showing the current players the respect they deserve, it's the owner and his son and the fans who support those two that refuse to take the proper steps to make this current group of players the best team they can be.

 

[Nightman]

It does if it makes in impossible to get others resigned. I have no issue using the mid-level FA like Looney and getting young talent in here. People will point to the Rams and go see they made it, how about Jacksonville? They have spent a boat load on FA and do nothing and there are more teams out there who have overspent trying to buy a championship and it does not work. Nothing wrong with getting good solid talent via FA but I still think much of what brings championships is from the draft and being able to resign your own. I think Dak, Zeke, Cooper and I also think they will get a long term deal done with DLaw is not going to be cheap but can be done unless they go out and start spending big in FA then I think that pretty much is out the window.

It isn't an either or game

DO IT ALL

Draft
Trade
FA

 

[Doomsday101]

Who is taking it out on the players?

People aren't criticizing the players. They are criticizing the leadership of this team, specifically the Jones boys, for their failure to use every tool at their disposal to make the team the best team they can. Jerry wasted the best years of Romo and Ware and Witten and Dez because he and his son buggled roster building then. They are likely doing it again.

So if anyone isn't showing the current players the respect they deserve, it's the owner and his son and the fans who support those two that refuse to take the proper steps to make this current group of players the best team they can be.

Jerry does have responsibility and they have changed how they do business over that time. Sorry I don't think they wasted any career the players themselves have responsibility as well to win. Jerry did not cause Romo to miss as much time in his career as he did nor did Jerry force passes at times that lead to critical ints. They made real runs and failed but that failure is as much on the players who actually play the game as anyone else. Jerry has blame in this game as well and have never removed him from blame but so many act as if the players themselves have no role in winning and losing yet they do.

 

[Doomsday101]

It isn't an either or game

DO IT ALL

Draft
Trade
FA

Yes but Dallas does not need to break the bank on a FA player, Cap is real and while you can manipulate it to a certain extent in the end you still have a real cap and will cause the loss of players. I see some very key players that will cost Dallas but in my view are worth keeping.

 

[Sydla]

Jerry does have responsibility and they have changed how they do business over that time. Sorry I don't think they wasted any career the players themselves have responsibility as well to win. Jerry did not cause Romo to miss as much time in his career as he did nor did Jerry force passes at times that lead to critical ints. They made real runs and failed but that failure is as much on the players who actually play the game as anyone else. Jerry has blame in this game as well and have never removed him from blame but so many act as if the players themselves have no role in winning and losing yet they do.

You continue to set up strawman arguments.

You start by apparently accusing people of criticizing and not supporting the players and no one in this debate has done that. Then you mention how players factor into wins and losses and no one has ever suggested that as well.

Here's the issue. Some of those Romo teams, where the offense was putting up big numbers, was often coupled to a defense that simply wasn't good enough to win............ not because the players didn't play well on defense, but rather, they just weren't a very talented defense. That fact doesn't fall on the players, it falls on the GM and his son who are RESPONSIBLE for putting out the best roster they can.

They didn't do that for many years and as such, wasted the star players they had.

 

[Sydla]

Yes but Dallas does not need to break the bank on a FA player, Cap is real and while you can manipulate it to a certain extent in the end you still have a real cap and will cause the loss of players. I see some very key players that will cost Dallas but in my view are worth keeping.

No has suggested break the bank in FA.

People who continually make that comment are just being disingenuous and not very honest when it comes to this debate.

 

[Doomsday101]

No has suggested break the bank in FA.

People who continually make that comment are just being disingenuous and not very honest when it comes to this debate.

No I'm not I see what some teams are paying for guys who were once great now come in with question marks, I sure as hell would not pay a boat load for a questionable player. Thomas no one knows how he will fair coming back from yet another injury and at 30. I'm not for paying for a name and if you pay out big money that player best be in his prime not on the downhill side

 

[Sydla]

No I'm not I see what some teams are paying for guys who were once great now come in with question marks, I sure as hell would not pay a boat load for a questionable player. Thomas no one knows how he will fair coming back from yet another injury and at 30. I'm not for paying for a name and if you pay out big money that player best be in his prime not on the downhill side

But none of that is pertinent to this debate.

Few Cowboys fans have suggested the Cowboys break the bank for FAs. Why even utter that statement when no one has really suggested that? In fact, when the contract for Thomas with the Ravens came out, some pro-Thomas people even admitted they aren't sure they would have paid that either.

So let's have an honest debate about FA and not create this false arguments.

 

[Doomsday101]

But none of that is pertinent to this debate.

Few Cowboys fans have suggested the Cowboys break the bank for FAs. Why even utter that statement when no one has really suggested that? In fact, when the contract for Thomas with the Ravens came out, some pro-Thomas people even admitted they aren't sure they would have paid that either.

So let's have an honest debate about FA and not create this false arguments.

I am honest fact is most FA never live up to the money they get. I like how Dallas has approached it, they paid modest for a guy like Looney yet he came in and played exceptional in place of a Pro Bowl center to me we got bang for the buck. I see Dallas with key players on this team who are up for FA this season and especially next season some I hope to see addressed this year but it will come at a real cost. If I was going to invest big money then I would rather invest it in some of the young players we have. If we don't other teams gladly will. In the end FA is not all about getting outside players at high cost it is also about taking care of key players who are also FA.

 

[Sydla]

I am honest fact is most FA never live up to the money they get. I like how Dallas has approached it, they paid modest for a guy like Looney yet he came in and played exceptional in place of a Pro Bowl center to me we got bang for the buck. I see Dallas with key players on this team who are up for FA this season and especially next season some I hope to see addressed this year but it will come at a real cost. If I was going to invest big money then I would rather invest it in some of the young players we have. If we don't other teams gladly will. In the end FA is not all about getting outside players at high cost it is also about taking care of key players who are also FA.

Great, but then why talk about "breaking the bank" in FA? No one has really uttered that.

What they have said is bring in a couple of mid-tiered FA that can start and fill a position of need and make an impact. Joe Looney wasn't that guy. He was signed as a backup and had to step in and did a adequate job of not having the C position cave on us when Frederick went out.

This franchise should aspire to add a player or two who are better than Looney. Go out and sign a DT, who might be older, but is still productive and pretty good and signs a short term deal that doesn't hurt your cap down the road. The Rams did that with Suh.

People need to stop staking out this bizarre position that we wont be able to sign our own if we go into FA more than just signing some bargain bin slop like we typically do.

 

[TwistedL0g1k]

You didn't understand anything I wrote the rollover of cap space and what the 32.7m really represents

Context means everything

Romo had a 8.9m dead cap and that looks bad but he originally had a 28.4m cap hit for 2018....cutting him SAVED 19.5m on the cap

Dez had an 8m dead cap hit but he was scheduled to have a 16.5m cap hit.... that saved 8.5m on the cap

So even with those big 17.9m dead money hits DAL actually netted 28m in cap space..... they spent 16.3m of that space on roster moves and trades and still had 11.7m left over after the season

They rolled that 11.7m over to this year creating even more space

What you say here is true- in certain situations, cutting a player and creating dead money can actually create cap space also. But that doesn't change the fact that in general, dead money reduces available funds for a team to use for player acquisition and retention.

In your example with Romo, the Cowboys signed him to what, in hindsight, was a bad contract because his career was shorter then they had hoped. The result was millions of dollars of cap space used/allocated to a player who was not on the team, money that could have been used to bring in players that would actually help win some games.

The fact that cutting Romo or Dez created cap space is irrelevant to the point about dead money.

BTW- I understand what you wrote just fine- some of it was just factually incorrect.

 

[Nightman]

No I'm not I see what some teams are paying for guys who were once great now come in with question marks, I sure as hell would not pay a boat load for a questionable player. Thomas no one knows how he will fair coming back from yet another injury and at 30. I'm not for paying for a name and if you pay out big money that player best be in his prime not on the downhill side

EThomas' cap hit is 7m this year, 9m next year, then 15m....... that is not a problem

 

[Nightman]

What you say here is true- in certain situations, cutting a player and creating dead money can actually create cap space also. But that doesn't change the fact that in general, dead money reduces available funds for a team to use for player acquisition and retention.

In your example with Romo, the Cowboys signed him to what, in hindsight, was a bad contract because his career was shorter then they had hoped. The result was millions of dollars of cap space used/allocated to a player who was not on the team, money that could have been used to bring in players that would actually help win some games.

The fact that cutting Romo or Dez created cap space is irrelevant to the point about dead money.

BTW- I understand what you wrote just fine- some of it was just factually incorrect.

Not one thing I wrote is incorrect and you obviously don't understand a thing if you are still complaining about Romo's contract

 

[Doomsday101]

EThomas' cap hit is 7m this year, 9m next year, then 15m....... that is not a problem

It is a problem if you do not feel his play can match the pay.

Earl Thomas signed a 4 year, $55,000,000 contract with the Baltimore Ravens, including a $20,000,000 signing bonus, $32,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $13,750,000. In 2019, Thomas will earn a base salary of $2,000,000 and a signing bonus of $20,000,000, while carrying a cap hit of $7,000,000 and a dead cap value of $32,000,000.

Sorry I don't think his ability matches the contract at this point and time in his career. However if you feel his skill level is still to that level then we just disagree. I don't buy into paying for a name it comes down to do you think his skill level today is at that value?