West Coast Offense?

[percyhoward]

Purely at the insistence of Kitna. That is not where he's comfortable at all. It looked shaky at best.

Wrong on all three counts. You just hit the trifecta of bad takes.

Prescott was already throwing deeper late in games in 2018, after being conservative for three quarters. With Linehan's departure, the offense under Moore was already headed toward more a more aggressive attack for all four quarters (see Week 17 of 2018, see all of Moore's and Lal's comments during the offseason) -- although I have no doubt Kitna was also on board with this. The only question was whether Dak could sustain that intermediate-to-deep success over a full game.

There were 18 QB with at least 90 attempts at a depth of 15+ yards. Dak's rank among those 18:
comp% 1st
YPA 1st
yards 2nd
1st downs 2nd
TD 3rd
passer rating 3rd
attempts 4th

 

[Verdict]

So I have heard this mentioned several times by McCarthy.

I have watched the Packers bounce us out of the playoffs twice with it.

So what do you guys think about that aspect of the changing offense?

How does Dak fit that or will he struggle by having been in Linehan/Moore schemes?

Is it going to be obvious or a subtle change coming.?

We were lead to believe Moore had this profound change after Linehan was gone.

But I never saw much except we fell behind too often and had to throw to have any chance to stay in games.

Dak looked better but it was not due to design..it was due to have to.

So now West Coast?

Is this going to change anything?

Forum..check in.

Differing opinions welcome.

My biggest problem with the Garrett/ Air Coryell vertical passing game is that when you go for a low percentage pass on 3rd and 1 your series is over. That happened far too many times this year.

 

[erod]

Wrong on all three counts. You just hit the trifecta of bad takes.

Prescott was already throwing deeper late in games in 2018, after being conservative for three quarters. With Linehan's departure, the offense under Moore was already headed toward more a more aggressive attack for all four quarters (see Week 17 of 2018, see all of Moore's and Lal's comments during the offseason) -- although I have no doubt Kitna was also on board with this. The only question was whether Dak could sustain that intermediate-to-deep success over a full game.

There were 18 QB with at least 90 attempts at a depth of 15+ yards. Dak's rank among those 18:
comp% 1st
YPA 1st
yards 2nd
1st downs 2nd
TD 3rd
passer rating 3rd
attempts 4th

Statistics say that Dak was an infinitely better quarterback than Troy Aikman.

That's why they should be ignored.

Dak failed to score a touchdown in 3 games this year. He racked up numbers in meaningless garbage time. He rolled up a few semi-pro teams. He was awful when it mattered most.

And heaving it downfield now and again doesn't mean he's good at it. Any quarterback can do that.

He's the pure definition of a non-impactful bus driver that requires no special attention or game planning from opposing defensive coordinators.

 

[Redball Express]

Agreed. I think we'll see a lot more of the screen/short passing game as a compliment to the run game.

That means fewer rushing attempts, specifically, but it should have the same impact.

Also less stacking the box.

Spreading the defense with WCO should open a lot of new possibilities.

We shall hope.

 

[sean10mm]

Statistics say that Dak was an infinitely better quarterback than Troy Aikman.

Not when you adjust for era.

Which anybody with a clue about statistics would do.

 

[Redball Express]

Statistics say that Dak was an infinitely better quarterback than Troy Aikman.

That's why they should be ignored.

Dak failed to score a touchdown in 3 games this year. He racked up numbers in meaningless garbage time. He rolled up a few semi-pro teams. He was awful when it mattered most.

And heaving it downfield now and again doesn't mean he's good at it. Any quarterback can do that.

He's the pure definition of a non-impactful bus driver that requires no special attention or game planning from opposing defensive coordinators.

I agree about Dak and not being a factor against better teams,

But there is plenty of other talent to worry about to beat you.

our defense is the weakest area of our team.

nobody loses sleep over them for sure.

 

[CouchCoach]

There is no magic % pass/run because it varies from game to game with all of these coaches except Reid.

The thing about the WCO when it's done well, an offense can do either effectively and they become harder to defend.

Good HC's alter their offense to utilize the talent. In GB, Big Mike had a top 3 passer, you don't have a guy like that manage the game. He has a better RB that he ever had in GB, so I expect him to utilize him just as much as his predecessor, maybe not in the same way but the WCO is all about space. Get every weapon into space and let them make plays.

The WCO is the same principle as the Flex D. Make the opposition think more, make them pay for reactions instead of read and responses.

The complaint has been the Cowboys O was too predictable, too 90's line up and beat your guy. I think that has come to an end and unless he's been ordered otherwise, I think the fact that this QB can use his legs will be seen as a large advantage that I never thought the other OC's took full advantage of.

 

[garyo1954]

Also less stacking the box.

Spreading the defense with WCO should open a lot of new possibilities.

We shall hope.

Spread is one way. Typically what you see is bunching and spacing to disguise the route.

In the perfect world you want your receivers to have room to run their route. If he's running and out, he is lined up closer to the tackle (or TE).
If he's running an inside route he's spacing between him and the tacker or tight end is greater.
That gives him room for the route, but defensive coordinators pick up on that quick.

So you space the TE about midway between the tackle and Z. Use motion and bring your slot guy across. Or even line the slot guy up outside Z.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The WCO that McCarthy runs is actually Paul Browns old Ohio Offense. The Air Coryell vertical Offense that was run by the Rams and the Raiders, the vertical stretch Offense are not the same. Yes, they were both made famous by West Coast teams but they are not both WCO. WCO is the San Francisco Offense made famous by Bill Walsh has it's roots in the Ohio Offense made famous by Paul Brown, run by Otto Graham. Air Coryell, made famous by Don Coryell in San Diego has it's roots in Oakland and with the Rams. It was taught to Coryell by Sid Gillman. It has also been referred to as the WCO but it really never caught on as that name and they are two completely different Offenses. Air Coryell, which I prefer BTW, is predicated on vertical stretch with heavy single back influence. It is designed to threaten every area of the field and is meant to force opposing defenses to basically honor their defensive responsibilities. It is designed to force defenses into a position where they can't help or scheme attacks without leaving something else vulnerable. All you need is an OC who can figure out what the weakness is and a QB that can execute against the vulnerability.

Basically:

WCO is Walsh taught to him from the Old Paul Brown Ohio Offense.

Air Coryell is Coryell's offense taught to him by Sid Gillman.

 

[Redball Express]

The WCO that McCarthy runs is actually Paul Browns old Ohio Offense. The Air Coryell vertical Offense that was run by the Rams and the Raiders, the vertical stretch Offense are not the same. Yes, they were both made famous by West Coast teams but they are not both WCO. WCO is the San Francisco Offense made famous by Bill Walsh has it's roots in the Ohio Offense made famous by Paul Brown, run by Otto Graham. Air Coryell, made famous by Don Coryell in San Diego has it's roots in Oakland and with the Rams. It was taught to Coryell by Sid Gillman. It has also been referred to as the WCO but it really never caught on as that name and they are two completely different Offenses. Air Coryell, which I prefer BTW, is predicated on vertical stretch with heavy single back influence. It is designed to threaten every area of the field and is meant to force opposing defenses to basically honor their defensive responsibilities. It is designed to force defenses into a position where they can't help or scheme attacks without leaving something else vulnerable. All you need is an OC who can figure out what the weakness is and a QB that can execute against the vulnerability.

Basically:

WCO is Walsh taught to him from the Old Paul Brown Ohio Offense.

Air Coryell is Coryell's offense taught to him by Sid Gillman.

Interesting.

I never have paid attention to WCO except when Walsh and Montana were running it.

Times have changed.

Thanx.

 

[garyo1954]

The WCO that McCarthy runs is actually Paul Browns old Ohio Offense. The Air Coryell vertical Offense that was run by the Rams and the Raiders, the vertical stretch Offense are not the same. Yes, they were both made famous by West Coast teams but they are not both WCO. WCO is the San Francisco Offense made famous by Bill Walsh has it's roots in the Ohio Offense made famous by Paul Brown, run by Otto Graham. Air Coryell, made famous by Don Coryell in San Diego has it's roots in Oakland and with the Rams. It was taught to Coryell by Sid Gillman. It has also been referred to as the WCO but it really never caught on as that name and they are two completely different Offenses. Air Coryell, which I prefer BTW, is predicated on vertical stretch with heavy single back influence. It is designed to threaten every area of the field and is meant to force opposing defenses to basically honor their defensive responsibilities. It is designed to force defenses into a position where they can't help or scheme attacks without leaving something else vulnerable. All you need is an OC who can figure out what the weakness is and a QB that can execute against the vulnerability.

Basically:

WCO is Walsh taught to him from the Old Paul Brown Ohio Offense.

Air Coryell is Coryell's offense taught to him by Sid Gillman.

Good point on the "designed to force defenses!" What Bill did was script his first 15-20 plays and go right down the sheet. I think Mike used a 12 play script. Those plays are designed to test various areas of the defense and create the necessity of the defense shifting to close it down, exposing the weaknesses you can exploit.

 

[sean10mm]

This idea of offensive schemes (Air Coryell, West Coast Offense, Erhard-Perkins) being tied to specific philosophies of if you run or pass, or where you pass on the field, was already becoming obsolete in the 1990s.

WCO has been run with tons of vertical passing by Andy Reid (Mahomes), McCarthy (Aaron Rodgers, Favre) and Holmgren (Favre again)WCO has been run with tons of... running.... by Holmgren (on the Seahawks with Shaun Alexander) and Shanahan (all the time, especially with Terrell Davis on the Broncos)

EP offense was seen as a primitive ground and pound offense until Brady and Belichick, who used it for everything from smashmouth (2004 espeically), vertical attack (2007), dink-dunk, multi-TE intermediate attack and everything in-between.

Schemes are functionally just toolboxes now that can be used for almost any style of football you want. It's not like McCarthy is going to be AMAZED AND SURPRISED by the idea of running the ball out of the I or something.

 

[erod]

Not when you adjust for era.

Which anybody with a clue about statistics would do.

Troy didn't have good stats for his own era.

Which anyone with a clue about that era would know.

Stats mean next to nothing.

 

[MikeB80]

This idea of offensive schemes (Air Coryell, West Coast Offense, Erhard-Perkins) being tied to specific philosophies of if you run or pass, or where you pass on the field, was already becoming obsolete in the 1990s.

WCO has been run with tons of vertical passing by Andy Reid (Mahomes), McCarthy (Aaron Rodgers, Favre) and Holmgren (Favre again)WCO has been run with tons of... running.... by Holmgren (on the Seahawks with Shaun Alexander) and Shanahan (all the time, especially with Terrell Davis on the Broncos)

EP offense was seen as a primitive ground and pound offense until Brady and Belichick, who used it for everything from smashmouth (2004 espeically), vertical attack (2007), dink-dunk, multi-TE intermediate attack and everything in-between.

Schemes are functionally just toolboxes now that can be used for almost any style of football you want. It's not like McCarthy is going to be AMAZED AND SURPRISED by the idea of running the ball out of the I or something.

Yep. Everybody is running parts of everything. The WCO Walsh-Hackett that McCarthy comes from will be a change in terminology though for the offense and especially Dak.

The evolution of Walsh's offenses happened as soon as his assistants started getting jobs. Sam Wyche added zone blocking and no huddle hurry up, Holmgren added 3 and 4 wr sets, Shanahan added the shotgun, Andy reid used a zone power running game.

at this point offenses are just a mixture of everything. Terminology matters though

 

[sean10mm]

Troy didn't have good stats for his own era.

Which anyone with a clue about that era would know.

Stats mean next to nothing.

His efficiency in his prime was actually pretty great.

Year    Age  Tm Pos No.   G  GS   QBrec  Att Y/A+ NY/A+ AY/A+ ANY/A+ Cmp%+ TD%+ Int%+ Sack%+ Rate+
1991*    25 DAL  QB   8  12  12   7-5-0  363  114   109   112    109   130   90   113     95   114
1992*    26 DAL  QB   8  16  16  13-3-0  473  109   115   113    117   120  114   108    115   118
1993*    27 DAL  QB   8  14  14  11-3-0  392  122   122   127    126   133  101   128    104   129
1994*    28 DAL  QB   8  14  14  10-4-0  361  114   121   108    113   120   98    97    117   109
1995*    29 DAL  QB   8  16  16  12-4-0  432  122   130   124    129   123   97   126    120   122
Career                  165 165 94-71-0                                                       4715

Also his OMG EVIL STATS NOOOOO were great in his 3 Super Bowl runs, like 8 out of 9 games with a passer rating over 100.

 

[Tenkamenin]

Prepare for all throws to be behind the line of scrimmage and for Dak to pad stats with a 1 yard pass that gets taken to the house for 80. I love this offense and it is very QB friendly.

Sounds like Dak and Wentz will have a lot in common.

 

[conner01]

My biggest problem with the Garrett/ Air Coryell vertical passing game is that when you go for a low percentage pass on 3rd and 1 your series is over. That happened far too many times this year.

Second and short is when I like to take that deep shot
Or right after a turnover which Dak has probably had very few attempts at

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

Dak would do well in WCO

Agreed and have begged for a WCO for a long time.

 

[garyo1954]

I have my doubts about Dak. Romo would have been phenomenal!

 

[percyhoward]

Statistics say that Dak was an infinitely better quarterback than Troy Aikman.

That's why they should be ignored.

No. That's why they should be understood. Any statistic that puts Prescott ahead of Aikman probably needs to be adjusted for era, for example.

But that has nothing to do with the target-depth statistics I just gave you. Those are all for 2019, so no cross-era confusion involved. That's just somebody making a note of how far a pass travels through the air. And that's exactly what you mean when you say "dink and dunk." It ain't rocket science to watch a ball go past the line of scrimmage at the 50-yard line, see it caught at the 30, and record the fact that the pass traveled 20 yards past the line of scrimmage.

It's easy to ignore something, but the easiest option isn't always the best one.