West Coast Offense?

[BoysForLife]

I disagree horizontal routes he does not get the ball out on time, his guys are always stopping or making difficult catches because the ball is not where it needs to be.

 

[aikemirv]

I know exactly what it is. Bill Walsh was its founder.

It's a passing offense designed to work like a run offense with lots of short swing passes and slants mixed in with the run game. It's designed to set up occasional deeper throws, but stays mostly within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

McCarthy is more of a run guy by preference. I don't think this will be a WCO in the end.

McCarthy in that Peter King piece points to an notebook on the bottom and says, there are some old WC offense notes down there. It is all just pieces of the puzzle

 

[CowboyRoy]

So I have heard this mentioned several times by McCarthy.

I have watched the Packers bounce us out of the playoffs twice with it.

So what do you guys think about that aspect of the changing offense?

How does Dak fit that or will he struggle by having been in Linehan/Moore schemes?

Is it going to be obvious or a subtle change coming.?

We were lead to believe Moore had this profound change after Linehan was gone.

But I never saw much except we fell behind too often and had to throw to have any chance to stay in games.

Dak looked better but it was not due to design..it was due to have to.

So now West Coast?

Is this going to change anything?

Forum..check in.

Differing opinions welcome.

Dak can play in any offense.

 

[BoysForLife]

As long as they don’t run a lot of crossing routes where Dak has a tendency to throw high or behind the WRs.

And slants, same thing

 

[Kwyn]

It’s a proven championship level offense and McCarthy is one of the best at understanding and implementing it

I think it lends itself to Dak’s skill set

I’m on board

 

[MikeB80]

I know exactly what it is. Bill Walsh was its founder.

It's a passing offense designed to work like a run offense with lots of short swing passes and slants mixed in with the run game. It's designed to set up occasional deeper throws, but stays mostly within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

McCarthy is more of a run guy by preference. I don't think this will be a WCO in the end.

Sort of.

Factually, the offense we have played forever is the "West Coast Offense". It was named by Bernie Kosar after referring to the offense in Dallas as the west coast offense from Don Coryell to Norv Turner and Ernie Zampese.

The Bill Walsh offense has its origins in Al Davis,Sid Gillman and Paul Brown's offense. Bill Walsh never allowed his QB to play in the shotgun, only used two wr and didn't allow motion. He also (As Babe Laufenberg often mentions on the radio broadcast) was a stickler for accuracy, it was the most important trait and would preach balls to be thrown six inches in front of the wr hands and at the numbers.

When Wyche, Holmgren and Shanahan took the offenses with them to their teams they made all kinds of changes. Wyche added the no huddle (The bills stole their k-gun offense from him), Holmgren added three wr sets and a lot of vertical routes and then Shanahan added the shotgun and seven step drops. Andy Reid combined all of it and a zone power running game.

this ten yards off the line of scrimmage is nonsense. It's 2020 and everybody plays a mixture of all the offenses. The issue here will be the new terminology, that is rooted in Bill Walsh's scheme. McCarthy is a Paul Hackett descendant who took Walsh's offense to KC and installed his own running game...This is why Joe Montana went to KC in 93 because it was Walsh's offense.

again it's 2020 I don't think anyone is running Bill Walsh's offense anymore but the terminology will be rooted in that. I think all the offense's are a mixture of Walsh/Coryell/Earhardt's offenses mixed with the new RPO college stuff.

I think its a bummer we never got Romo in this offense and also I think Patrick Crayton was taylor made for the Walsh offense.

I also remember Parcells getting all agitated in Press conferences when someone would ask him questions about playing against the west coast offense because Walsh's offense was not the west coast offense it just got incorrectly tagged that and it stuck.

I don't think Dak Prescott would succeed in Bill Walsh's offense, he has real accuracy issues so this training camp will be interesting to watch.

 

[MysteryIceGuro]

I kind of disagree and hear me out--
I know I'm known as a Dak critic (hater, to some) and I don't necessarily deny that I'm not high on him.

But--objectively--and taking any preconceived notions/feelings out of it--when I watch Dak play the position, it seems to me that some of the throws he struggles with the most are those quick crosses and slants (often times, the ball seems to arrive late/off target/behind, either resulting in a really difficult catch without YAC for the receiver, or the play just being off altogether.)

Not saying he *always* misses these throws, but it seems to me that these types of timing/location throws that go quick are some of the throws that he seems to struggle the worst with.

Exactly the type of throws needed to be a top tier WCO quarterback.

To me--Dak's best strength is when he extends plays by his legs and kind of almost improvises on the go with something that opens up downfield.
I'm still not high on him in any circumstance but this seems to be maybe what he's best at.

I may be proven wrong (and I hope I will be) but if we install WCO type offense I could see it being really tough to watch unless Dak dramatically improves his timing and location on some of the throws needed, and he hasn't shown enough of that over 4 years imo.

thoughts?

I agree. Dak may fall apart in an offense like this. Unless McCarthy and his crew (or Kitna if he stays) can fix him, a WCO may not fit with Dak at QB. If it's an obvious problem, we'll need to draft a QB in 2021.

 

[Redball Express]

A good coach (and, maybe one that has been fired and had to re-learn a few things) should know that, even if my philosophy is different than the last guy, I still use elements of what was working and ADAPT (something that it seemed Garrett and Marinelli NEVER did) them to my way of things. With the news that MM wants Kellen to stay on as OC, I must say I like how this can play out. First, as erratic as he may haves been in his first year, Kellen STILL oversaw an offense that OBLITERATED the Team Record for Total Yards and YPG. Now, he gets to learn even more ways to do his thing from a guy that runs his offense from an entirely different perspective.

I’ve long been a guy that wanted to see how Dak would look running a offense with WCO principles and philosophies. Seems like a lot of the more mobile guys (Wilson, McNabb, Mahomes, Jackson, Vick, etc...) seems to do well in this offensive system versus your more traditional pocket QB-heavy system like the Air Coryell. The Air Coryell ALWAYS succeeds better with a supremely accurate pocket passer. The WCO hasn’t always required pinpoint accuracy from guys.

Good points.

I like this change alot.

Daks sweet spot throwing is 8-15 yds downfield.

Getting rid of the ball quickly was a big factor of his 2016 year.

Then critics began knocking the lack of a downfield passing attack and comparing Dak to Wentz.

The Cowboys started to ask Dak to hold the ball longer and read coverages to make that succeed.

It resulted in over 60 sacks for Dak and we finished out of the playoffs in 2017.

So not sure if the WCO has easier reads or if the QB has more options or what.

But guys like Mahomes and others are using running in their offenses to succeed.

This is a WCO staple.

Dak will be fine I think.

We will see.

 

[sean10mm]

The WCO hasn't been a dink and dunk offense for ages. It's evolved.

Hell, mid 90s Favre was the #1 big play highlight reel passer in football in that system. Rodgers took it over and threw rocketballs downfield constantly. And if we're pretending that Mahomes running the WCO for Reid is a "dink dunk" guy in 2018-2020 I don't know what you're smoking.

I mean everybody who hates the Patriots calls Brady a "system quarterback" as a dig, but that Erhard-Perkins offense was invented in the 1970s and never mattered until he was the one using it. Systems are just general frameworks you modify as needed to get the most out of your talent and set up the best matchups.

 

[MikeB80]

The WCO hasn't been a dink and dunk offense for ages. It's evolved.

Hell, mid 90s Favre was the #1 big play highlight reel passer in football in that system. Rodgers took it over and threw rocketballs downfield constantly. And if we're pretending that Mahomes running the WCO for Reid is a "dink dunk" guy in 2018-2020 I don't know what you're smoking.

I mean everybody who hates the Patriots calls Brady a "system quarterback" as a dig, but that Erhard-Perkins offense was invented in the 1970s and never mattered until he was the one using it. Systems are just general frameworks you modify as needed to get the most out of your talent and set up the best matchups.

uhh the NY giants would disagree with you about the Ron Earhardt offense not mattering until brady. Phil Simms played one of the greatest superbowl games ever in 86 in that system. He had a hell of a career mostly in that system also.

 

[Tabascocat]

I am assuming that Dak will be under center(no more shotgun) which was a rarity in the past. Dak will also have to work on his accuracy leading receivers to get YAC. TE’s need to be able to block and be a possession guy. Our RB’s would be a good fit and the WR’s have to be good route runners.

If Dak can get better at making quick decisions and lead the receiver, than this can work well. Camp will be interesting.......

 

[Future]

Dak likes to dink and dunk, so it should be a good fit.

This is very true if you completely ignore reality. He finished 6th in the league in average intended air yards and third in average completed air yards lol.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-intended-yards

You're confusing Dak with Jimmy Garoppolo. Easy mistake.

 

[quickccc]

Agreed. I think we'll see a lot more of the screen/short passing game as a compliment to the run game.

That means fewer rushing attempts, specifically, but it should have the same impact.

Efficient screen passes to the RBs will be a great benefit - as it used to be a deadly weapon when zeke was his former 2016-17 version and
capable of breaking the home run play. I thought we got away from the RB screen under Kellen Moore.

I think the biggest differences will be the rhythm time based pass game under Kellen was more of a push aimed for more vertical downfield chunk yards and whereas
the west coast- as you said- will be more focused on the short passing game while taking its occasional shot over the top.

I'm very interested to see how McCarthy will make better use of the RBs and TEs in his offense.

 

[Future]

Efficient screen passes to the RBs will be a great benefit - as it used to be a deadly weapon when zeke was his former 2016-17 version and
capable of breaking the home run play. I thought we got away from the RB screen under Kellen Moore.

I think the biggest differences will be the rhythm time based pass game under Kellen was more of a push aimed for more vertical downfield chunk yards and whereas
the west coast- as you said- will be more focused on the short passing game while taking its occasional shot over the top.

I'm very interested to see how McCarthy will make better use of the RBs and TEs in his offense.

I don't think they'll be "replacing" the vertical passing game with the screen game. I think they'll be handing the ball off less with it.

The vertical game is what worked for this offense. If McCarthy is good with Kellen coming back, it wouldn't make sense if he's planning on getting rid of that part.

 

[BigD_95]

So I have heard this mentioned several times by McCarthy.

I have watched the Packers bounce us out of the playoffs twice with it.

So what do you guys think about that aspect of the changing offense?

How does Dak fit that or will he struggle by having been in Linehan/Moore schemes?

Is it going to be obvious or a subtle change coming.?

We were lead to believe Moore had this profound change after Linehan was gone.

But I never saw much except we fell behind too often and had to throw to have any chance to stay in games.

Dak looked better but it was not due to design..it was due to have to.

So now West Coast?

Is this going to change anything?

Forum..check in.

Differing opinions welcome.

My understanding is we will finally be able to run a screen pass!

getting Pollard & Zeke in open space

on the radio they were saying his offense is great at getting the ball out of the QB's hands quickly

that will be interesting because one of my issues with Dak is it seems he holds the ball too long. If that improves it could really help out Dak

 

[ConstantReboot]

Bust on Dak all you want. Now that we finally have a real coach that knows how to run an offense is a good thing. Garrett was the main impediment on Dak. Dak was not coached well on things he needed to learn. With proper coaching, Dak will excel and be a good QB.

 

[PAPPYDOG]

It’s a proven championship level offense and McCarthy is one of the best at understanding and implementing it

I think it lends itself to Dak’s skill set

I’m on board

Can you tell us what exactly Dak's skill set is?
Cause beyond handing the ball off to Zeke and throwing 2 yards passes with an accurate slant once in a while or a long ball (when the CB have bumped into each other and fallen down) haven't really seen that skill set?

 

[PAPPYDOG]

Bust on Dak all you want. Now that we finally have a real coach that knows how to run an offense is a good thing. Garrett was the main impediment on Dak. Dak was not coached well on things he needed to learn. With proper coaching, Dak will excel and be a good QB.

Ya man it was Garrett's fault that Dak stunk it up against good defenses the past 3 years!!!!
Oh well, excuses are a dime a dozen now go tell Dak to practice the over the shoulder pass ...oops I forgot his "Skillset" doesn't allow for this pass!!!

 

[quickccc]

I am assuming that Dak will be under center(no more shotgun) which was a rarity in the past. Dak will also have to work on his accuracy leading receivers to get YAC. TE’s need to be able to block and be a possession guy. Our RB’s would be a good fit and the WR’s have to be good route runners.

If Dak can get better at making quick decisions and lead the receiver, than this can work well. Camp will be interesting.......

which sounds promising if this means QB will be more under center. Since I really do believe zeke runs the ball much more efficiently and effective when
he can get a deeper handoff and better access and sense holes and openings at the line...vs RPO draw-play handoffs.

I do believe we will have some shotgun formation plays - that's just the trend around the league- some teams just us it more than others.
And under kitna-kellen, I thought Dak was efficient at quickly setting, reading and getting the ball quickly out of his hand.
and his yards average per pass was among the highest in the NFL, it was definitely no more dinking- dunking. We were pushing the ball down the field in the pass game.

i'm just wondering if Dak is going to be asked to throw more from a moving pocket in several formations than what we saw in Kellen's offense.

 

[csirl]

I played and coached in a WCO system - over 20 years ago, so I expect its evolved since then.

It's all about timing and throwing to.a particular spot in advance of the WR getting there. Footwork is at an anal level of detail as every throw has to be precise in terms of timing of the ball and the spot the ball is thrown to. Every receiver has to run each pattern the same.

Body positioning and the channel the QB throws in are important for the shorter patterns as often the throw is to a receiver who has little separation, but delivered to a spot that only the receiver can catch it.