Teams are trying to convince themselves qb is good enough

[nate dizzle]

did you look at my list? My list proves without a doubt, that you are far more likely to win because of a HOF qb than you are with a running game and great defense...... to about the tune of 70% or so more likely.

I just got a look at it last night and spent a little time compiling some data. Unfortunately I have no idea how to put the list I put together on a table on here without it making an unreadable mess. Happy to share it with you if you know how to post a table.

Anyways, I went back to 1990 and here are some numbers. One note for disclosure, my list has Jimmy G. winning this SB with the #2 defense and rushing game. Numbers not impacted much if it goes the other way. Make of them what you will:

# Times SB teams had top 10 rushing =36 (58%)

# Times SB teams had top 10 defense= 36 (58%)

# Times SB teams had top 10 rushing or defense= 45 (73%)

# Times SB teams had top 5 rushing or defense= 36 (58%)

# Times SB teams had top 10 rushing and defense= 25 (40%)

# Times SB teams had top 5 rushing and defense= 9 (15%)

# Times SB teams with top 5 rushing= 22 (35%)

# Times SB teams with top 5 defense= 24 (39%)


# Times SB Winning QB had top 10 rushing= 20 (65%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 10 rushing= 15 (48%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 5 rushing= 13 (42%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 5 rushing=9 (29%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 10 in either rushing or defense= 26 (84%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 10 in either rushing or defense= 19 (61%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 5 in either rushing or defense=21 (68%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 5 in either rushing or defense= 15 (48%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 10 in both rushing and defense= 17 (55%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 10 in both rushing and defense =8 (26%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 5 in both rushing and defense =7 (23%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 5 in both rushing and defense =2 (6%)

 

[Reid1boys]

Of course. However, there's only 2 or 3 top QB's. Rest of the teams have to form a unit that is dominant/good enough in other ways. Eli, Foles, Flacco, an old Payton. Super bowls are won all the time by 2nd tier QB's.

With Dak, what you have to do is simply realize that he's most likely not a team carrier, and build your D. Jason never understood that, our best hope is that McC does.

did you read my post listing the SB winners since 2000? I addressed every qb you listed. Only Foles and ELi didnt hit the two markers of either being a HOF QB, or have a GREAT defense. so hey, 3 out of 19... those are good odds of winning a SB with neither a GREAT defense or a HOF QB... we should be there in no time at all.

 

[gjkoeppen]

lol @ “the rest of us” while you’re arguing with several in this thread already. I fully understand that it’s early, but he’s THAT good. He does things we’ve only ever seen from A rod, and won the mvp handily in his first year as a starter.

Its kiind of like how Bo Jackson is widely considered one of the best running backs of all time despite his career being cut short. Sometimes you just know.

you can relax with the name calling tho

Lets put a little bit of the whole stories behind Jackson and Rodgers. First Rodgers sat behind Favre for his 1st 3 years and he didn't get the acclaims he has after just 2 seasons as a starter. A lot of the acclaim Jackson has is based on the fact he was a 2 sports guy and what he did do in the NFL he did as a part time player. I have little doubts that had Jackson just played football he would have amassed great numbers. The signature play for Jackson was a 34 yard TD where he just kept running up the tunnel. The other part of Jackson's acclaim is that he did this on a poor team again doing it part time. Mchomes may very well get to the one of the best ever but not after just 2 seasons. I'll give you that he's in the top 3 of QB right now, but lets say, and I hope this doesn't happen, that next season he gets a very severe injury which either hampers his ability to scramble like he does now or it's that serious that he has to take a year off like Bridgewater did but never comes back to what he is now. People will say he could have ended up as one of the best all time not gee is was one of the best all time because it's way to early after just 2 seasons to proclaim that. Did Brady get the title of goat after just 2 seasons? We know Rodgers didn't. How about Brees, certainly not after just 2 seasons. How about Emmitt, Sanders, Payton or Brown did they get one of the best all time after just 2 seasons?
.

 

[OmerV]

did you read my post listing the SB winners since 2000? I addressed every qb you listed. Only Foles and ELi didnt hit the two markers of either being a HOF QB, or have a GREAT defense. so hey, 3 out of 19... those are good odds of winning a SB with neither a GREAT defense or a HOF QB... we should be there in no time at all.

Eli will be in the HOF.

 

[Proof]

Lets put a little bit of the whole stories behind Jackson and Rodgers. First Rodgers sat behind Favre for his 1st 3 years and he didn't get the acclaims he has after just 2 seasons as a starter. A lot of the acclaim Jackson has is based on the fact he was a 2 sports guy and what he did do in the NFL he did as a part time player. I have little doubts that had Jackson just played football he would have amassed great numbers. The signature play for Jackson was a 34 yard TD where he just kept running up the tunnel. The other part of Jackson's acclaim is that he did this on a poor team again doing it part time. Mchomes may very well get to the one of the best ever but not after just 2 seasons. I'll give you that he's in the top 3 of QB right now, but lets say, and I hope this doesn't happen, that next season he gets a very severe injury which either hampers his ability to scramble like he does now or it's that serious that he has to take a year off like Bridgewater did but never comes back to what he is now. People will say he could have ended up as one of the best all time not gee is was one of the best all time because it's way to early after just 2 seasons to proclaim that. Did Brady get the title of goat after just 2 seasons? We know Rodgers didn't. How about Brees, certainly not after just 2 seasons. How about Emmitt, Sanders, Payton or Brown did they get one of the best all time after just 2 seasons?
.

I understand completely what your point is, and it's obviously the rational position to hold. I'm just ok going out on this limb.

None of the guys you mentioned came out the gates like Mahomes, so of course they weren't proclaimed early. And if he gets injured and falls off a cliff there will just be a *pre-injury caveat to his designation. In fact, it would probably create more hype around his early years as time moves on. Again in my humble opinion

 

[Reid1boys]

Eli will be in the HOF.

and as I keep saying, I commented on this. I said he will be a HOFer, even though I dont believe he is a HOF qb..... I accounted for him in my post that nobody seems to read, yet keeps commenting on.

 

[Sandyf]

This is great. Collin hit it on the head. He says that half the teams in the league are trying to convince themselves that their QB is good enough. The bears...... yep. Remember the chiefs with Smith? The would say he is good enough... and as Colin said... no he isnt.

And here we are trying to convince ourselves Dak is good enough. Did you watch Mahomes? Sad part is what else do you do?

Why the hate? Apparently McCarthy, multiple experts, multiple teams and their coaches and management believe Dak is the real deal yet seems like half the Cowboy fans hate the guy. He has been in the league 4 years and been to the playoffs 2 of those years and was close to being there all 4 years. Since Aikman, which Cowboy QB does can say this also. Is he better than Goff, Wentz, Lynch and any other QB taken that year, I would say yes and healthier also.

Mahomes is special and so is Wilson. Maybe Lamar Jackson and DeShaun Watson but frankly other than Mahomes, I would take Dak. Some will say because of the talent around him and it does hold water but what QB today has been successful without a good OL and talented receivers. In fact most if not all of the good QBs have at least 2 talented WR and a talented TE and a good running game (Jackson case, he is the running game also).

But I guess haters gotta hate and they will be angry when Dallas signs Dak to a 5 year deal that will be north of $150 million like it or not. This Watson and Mahomes are more than likely going to break the $40 million a year barrier and would imagine that several other QBs with get an increase to stay paced. Heck, guess we could try and sign Tannehill since his agent is only asking for $33 million a year, now that is crazy but Tennessee probably will sign him.

I'll stay with Dak and be as always a fan of the Cowboys.

 

[Reverend Conehead]

This is great. Collin hit it on the head. He says that half the teams in the league are trying to convince themselves that their QB is good enough. The bears...... yep. Remember the chiefs with Smith? The would say he is good enough... and as Colin said... no he isnt.

And here we are trying to convince ourselves Dak is good enough. Did you watch Mahomes? Sad part is what else do you do?

It's possible to win the Super Bowl with a good, but not great, QB. See Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, and Jim McMahan. However, it's a lot easier to win with an elite quarterback. We have numerous examples -- Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Tom Brady (and many more). Thus, if you have a good quarterback, but get the opportunity to upgrade to a great one, you do it. We upgraded from Craig Morton to Roger Staubach. The 49ers upgraded from Steve DeBerg to Joe Montana.

The big question is -- is there someone out there we could draft who would be a big upgrade over Dak?

 

[OmerV]

and as I keep saying, I commented on this. I said he will be a HOFer, even though I dont believe he is a HOF qb..... I accounted for him in my post that nobody seems to read, yet keeps commenting on.

The post I responded to didn't indicate about anything about Eli other than he won without being a HOFer or a great defense. But I'll take your word for it that you previously said you just don't believe he is a HOFer. To that I would only respond that HOF voters are the ones that decide that, and that every fan doesn't have to have to agree with every HOF choice for that choice to be a HOFer.

 

[gjkoeppen]

I understand completely what your point is, and it's obviously the rational position to hold. I'm just ok going out on this limb.

None of the guys you mentioned came out the gates like Mahomes, so of course they weren't proclaimed early. And if he gets injured and falls off a cliff there will just be a *pre-injury caveat to his designation. In fact, it would probably create more hype around his early years as time moves on. Again in my humble opinion

You're entitled to it as am I. I have yet to hear or read any of the former players, coaches or GM's that either are on TV or write for some sports media say Mahomes is one of the best all time and where I don't know this as fact, my guess is because they think it's way to early in his career to make such statements. I'm happy you think Mahimes is a really good QB the only problem I have is this idea of after just 2 seasons that he's one of the best ever.
.

 

[gjkoeppen]

It's possible to win the Super Bowl with a good, but not great, QB. See Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, and Jim McMahan. However, it's a lot easier to win with an elite quarterback. We have numerous examples -- Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Tom Brady (and many more). Thus, if you have a good quarterback, but get the opportunity to upgrade to a great one, you do it. We upgraded from Craig Morton to Roger Staubach. The 49ers upgraded from Steve DeBerg to Joe Montana.

The big question is -- is there someone out there we could draft who would be a big upgrade over Dak?

The problem with that is Jerry, Stephen and now McCarthy has said that Prescott is their QB. So why with the needs this team has on both sides of the ball and having 25 UFA and chances are high they can't get all signed, why would the Cowboys waste a valuable draft pick on a QB when they think they already have their QB?
.

 

[csirl]

mcvay is on the hot seat in 2020. If they do not do better this year, he could be gone. Wades D underachieved and he deserves some blame and so do the players. But I think they needed a fresh new approach on D.

My brother is a Rams fan. Puts their poor season down to 3 reasons:

1. Gurley is not the same player after his injury.
2. Invested heavily in older veteran linemen on expensive contracts.
3. Strength and conditioning issues - something isnt right - especially with their receivers - always injured or playing hurt.

 

[Proof]

You're entitled to it as am I. I have yet to hear or read any of the former players, coaches or GM's that either are on TV or write for some sports media say Mahomes is one of the best all time and where I don't know this as fact, my guess is because they think it's way to early in his career to make such statements. I'm happy you think Mahimes is a really good QB the only problem I have is this idea of after just 2 seasons that he's one of the best ever.
.

off a very quick search, here's Kurt Warner calling him the most complete qb he's ever seen (even though it's early)



tons more with even the most briefest of effort. I mean if your bar is former players etc.

 

[Proof]

I just got a look at it last night and spent a little time compiling some data. Unfortunately I have no idea how to put the list I put together on a table on here without it making an unreadable mess. Happy to share it with you if you know how to post a table.

Anyways, I went back to 1990 and here are some numbers. One note for disclosure, my list has Jimmy G. winning this SB with the #2 defense and rushing game. Numbers not impacted much if it goes the other way. Make of them what you will:

# Times SB teams had top 10 rushing =36 (58%)

# Times SB teams had top 10 defense= 36 (58%)

# Times SB teams had top 10 rushing or defense= 45 (73%)

# Times SB teams had top 5 rushing or defense= 36 (58%)

# Times SB teams had top 10 rushing and defense= 25 (40%)

# Times SB teams had top 5 rushing and defense= 9 (15%)

# Times SB teams with top 5 rushing= 22 (35%)

# Times SB teams with top 5 defense= 24 (39%)


# Times SB Winning QB had top 10 rushing= 20 (65%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 10 rushing= 15 (48%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 5 rushing= 13 (42%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 5 rushing=9 (29%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 10 in either rushing or defense= 26 (84%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 10 in either rushing or defense= 19 (61%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 5 in either rushing or defense=21 (68%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 5 in either rushing or defense= 15 (48%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 10 in both rushing and defense= 17 (55%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 10 in both rushing and defense =8 (26%)

# Times SB Winning QB had top 5 in both rushing and defense =7 (23%)

# Times SB Losing QB had top 5 in both rushing and defense =2 (6%)

love the effort put in. good stuff

 

[John813]

My brother is a Rams fan. Puts their poor season down to 3 reasons:

1. Gurley is not the same player after his injury.
2. Invested heavily in older veteran linemen on expensive contracts.
3. Strength and conditioning issues - something isnt right - especially with their receivers - always injured or playing hurt.

Poor Brandin Cooks has been lit up going back to his Pats days. IIRC he has had 4 known concussions in the past 2 years.

 

[Rayman70]

My brother is a Rams fan. Puts their poor season down to 3 reasons:

1. Gurley is not the same player after his injury.
2. Invested heavily in older veteran linemen on expensive contracts.
3. Strength and conditioning issues - something isnt right - especially with their receivers - always injured or playing hurt.

my son who is 18 and in the Army..LOVES the Rams. This season was real hard on him. His fave player is Gurley and he just thinks maybe he is done. I tend to agree. I think Todd is a far different back than he was. He is still good, but has to be on a pitch count..those bad knees.

 

[gjkoeppen]

off a very quick search, here's Kurt Warner calling him the most complete qb he's ever seen (even though it's early)



tons more with even the most briefest of effort. I mean if your bar is former players etc.

Wow you found one. Again if what you're saying is really true why haven't we heard this day after day from every sports personality? You found a former NFL QB that says it early but he thinks it yet where are the loud and continuous chorus of people proclaiming it?
.

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

well, the we are on our way.... we have a SB winning coach. Sky is the limit for us in 2020.......smh.

Wasnt McKay a genius? Howd they do this year?

I know we are on our way. I'm excited to see what McCarthy does.

 

[Proof]

Wow you found one. Again if what you're saying is really true why haven't we heard this day after day from every sports personality? You found a former NFL QB that says it early but he thinks it yet where are the loud and continuous chorus of people proclaiming it?
.

No, I provided one. There are plenty to be found, it was just easy to show you something that fit your criteria. And what do you mean if what I'm saying is true, it's an opinion. It's neither true, nor false at this point. What IS true, is that plenty of people feel this way, which was contrary to your original point. But I'm realizing you're dumb. So, good day.

 

[OmerV]

It's possible to win the Super Bowl with a good, but not great, QB. See Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, and Jim McMahan. However, it's a lot easier to win with an elite quarterback. We have numerous examples -- Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Tom Brady (and many more). Thus, if you have a good quarterback, but get the opportunity to upgrade to a great one, you do it. We upgraded from Craig Morton to Roger Staubach. The 49ers upgraded from Steve DeBerg to Joe Montana.

The big question is -- is there someone out there we could draft who would be a big upgrade over Dak?

With the #17 pick that is highly unlikely. Even a top 10 pick wouldn't be a certainty.