Is our OL still considered Elite?

Cowboyny · Jun 1, 2020

quickccc said:
While you're saying Conner Williams is not Tackle because of his short arms, ...and reason why he is playing inside at OG, .
.you do realize the same was being said about Lael Collins,( including and especially the.Cowboys) that were insistent upon him moving inside
and playing him at LG with intent and upon arrival, and were always reluctant to flex him at OT
..until they were forced to upon Doug Free's sudden retirement? .

Collins and Williams have similar arm length, and both have similar athleticism.
And since i'm not seeing short arm extension as a problem with Lael, and he's proven capable without such measurement demand, so i don't see how that should prohibit Williams either.

Fair Point. Both Collins and Connor have had their struggles early on making the switch inside. It will be interesting to see what a new staff thinks of Conner and which is his best position long-term.

quickccc · Jun 1, 2020

We really dunno what this year's OL unit will be made off starting with the sudden retirement of long time stud center Travis Fredrick who never really returned to form which likely prompted his departure from the game.
There will be a new starter at center, good chance a new Conner starter at LG, to add to holdovers martin, Lael and Tyron
Plus there will be a new OL coach in Joe Philbin a big Mccarthy favorite.

And i dunno much about Philbin other than past reads, and it's truly my biggest hope that it isnt a Paul Alexander type setback with a more zone blocking concept relying on more positioning and shielding (finesse oriented?) than man up power mauling.

But i dunno if Philbin's blocking scheme will be as committed to physicality as the one Bill Callahan employed
But from what i've researched on McCarthy run game under Philbin, it's just my guesswork that it seems Philbin' way will be more geared to misdirection, trap-pull, cut back and big play splash runs and screens. i don't think our run game is gonna geared to pound and grind ball control as in the Garrett regime.

While i questioned ex- OL coach Marc Columbo's part as run game coordinator in a run scheme which seem so simplistic ,predictable and geared for up middle only,
i was proud and commendable of his accomplishments with producing a pass blocking unit that was 2nd in the entire NFL in least sacks allowed.

But i for one believed McCarthy has a rightful place to have his own preferred coaches in place,
and 2nd, McCarthy preferrred choice as Philbin' has been an accomplished OC and OL coach.

Manwiththeplan · Jun 1, 2020

To answer your question, no, not elite. Very good, but not elite.

I do disagree that we haven't been the same since Callahan left. In 2016 with a rookie QB, rookie RB and no real #1 WR, we allowed two FEWER sacks, about 10 LESS passing yards per game and 2.5 MORE rushing yards per game.

Now since 2016, Tyron Smith has struggled staying healthy (missed 3 games that year as well as every year after), Connor Williams has struggled some and Travis Frederick obviously hasn't been the same and has subsequently retired. Those all play a much larger role than Callahan.

Risen Star · Jun 1, 2020

Cowboyny said:
In my opinion, the Cowboy OL was truly elite under Bill Callahan and hasn't been the same since he left.

This is nonsense. The OL's best year was 2016 and Callahan wasn't around. The fans have managed to romance the memory of this guy as if he was some savior he never really was.

Manwiththeplan · Jun 1, 2020

Risen Star said:
This is nonsense. The OL's best year was 2016 and Callahan wasn't around. The fans have managed to romance the memory of this guy as if he was some savior he never really was.

Please donate any "likes" you get from this post to me for copying my thoughts

quickccc · Jun 1, 2020

As far player personnel on the OL:

CENTER -
i get the already strong notion that Cowboys fans are gonna to expect the All pro world from 4th rd.rookie Tyler Badazzz from instant Day one.
From all his accolades, i think he will a fine pivot man ..in due time. There will be an adjustment period and could be a bumpy start.
But i'd like to give him every rep and game at it while he develops.

GUARDS -
- Martin is still playing at a high level, and interior men can have more of a lengthy era than other OL positions.
He simply has to stay healthy and he's been strained by back and knee injuries in the recent past.
- Conner Williams who been plagued by knee injuries. his first 2 years in the NFL
Williams is adequate but he is not unique,stellar or pro bowl caliber .
He's serviceable and you can get by with him but the expectations of a 2nd round pick has pro bowl aspirations.
With the heavily invested Williams I assumed the team expected a Richie Incognito type in the interior
Not big on size and power, but equipped with athleticism, movement skills and tenacity.
- The new sheriff in town may be the other Conner is supposedly has a strong base core than Williams but not as athletic.

TACKLES
- Tyron Smith: same stay healthy goes for him as well. but i expect him to miss his usual couple or so games while he perseveres
through the usual nagging nicks and groans.
Imo,he's not elite anymore but he is still solid. We may still some stats of Smith allowing only two sacks for entire year. but how much his
man hitting the QB after the throw ?
- Collins: Hasn't reached pro bow status yet,but more consistent,capable RT. Rebounded well since Paul Alexander disaster .Tough & durable.

DEPTH:
- ex-high draft pick Cam Irving is what he is. Experienced utility OT/OG vet that you hope to plug in ala Jeremy Parrnell (at end of his
Cowboys career)
- Is this the camp where Williams is flexed at both OG/OT ?
- undrafted rookie Knight performed adequate at RT, and with either Conner as a backup, along with Knight, we should be fine at reserve OG.
- Looney is an experienced serviceable luxury as a backup.

G2 · Jun 1, 2020

Not elite. Let's not water down the definition.

Ranched · Jun 1, 2020

blueblood70 · Jun 1, 2020

Cowboyny said:
In my opinion, the Cowboy OL was truly elite under Bill Callahan and hasn't been the same since he left. Pollack failed to get his unit to match previous success and was let go in just 2 season, the hiring of Paul Alexander was an utter disaster. Columbo did a better job replacing Alexander, but was let go this offseason as MM wanted to hire his own staff.

I believe Columbo was running more of a man blocking scheme last season compared to Callahan's Zone Blocking Scheme. The biggest benefactor was Collins as he had his best season as a pro. Joe Philbin will bring back the Zone Blocking Scheme, but I have read an old article saying his coaching is more about the fundamentals then the scheme. We heard the same thing from MM regarding the draft, just find us good players and we will scheme around their strengths. This is very refreshing to hear. Let's take a quick look at some of our OL personnel:

-Tyron-it's hard to believe he is only 29 years old. Injuries have taken a toll, but is still a high level blind spot protector in this league. From my own viewpoint, he struggles with edge speed, but if he gets his hands on you, it's game, set, match. He will miss a few starts, but he is still a very good LT in this league.

-Martin-he is also 29 years old, coming off an injury plaque season. Clearly he wasn't right all season and it showed at times. Like Tyron, dealing with back concerns. Even if Martin isn't playing at 100%. he is still better then the majority of Guards in this league.

-Collins-most of us, including myself were scratches our heads when we heard about his extension last season. Boy, were we wrong. Had a tremendous, breakout season, in which he was relatively heathy, which was a big issue for him earlier in his career. He is one of the best RT's in this league and is still getting better.

-Connor Williams-I believe many Cowboy fans don't give him any credit what so ever and believe he is a total bust of a draft pick. First of all, not many rookies are successful plug and play starters, especially learning to play a brand new position. When Connor Williams came in this league, many believe he needs to add more weight to his frame, he did just that after his first season. He clearly was a better player in year 2 and is still developing. Don't be surprised when he beats the competition and starts against this season. Last thing I will say, he isn't a Tackle, there is a reason why they are playing him inside at Guard as he is short armed for the Tackle position.

Is the OL still considered elite? No, but they are still young enough as a group to play at an elite level again. With better coaching, better health and more development it is possible.

NO as a unit they grade out an A for sure but they arent elite like in 2014/2016 when they were...too many questions at C and LG plus TS age and now Martin has some lingering issues ..they are for sure a very good line

fivetwos · Jun 1, 2020

Cowboyny said:
Fair Point. Both Collins and Connor have had their struggles early on making the switch inside. It will be interesting to see what a new staff thinks of Conner and which is his best position long-term.

What I know is this...

He played LT at Texas and got himself drafted high.

Moved to G in the NFL and doesnt pass the eye test there. I dont care what PFF may have said for a game or two.

He absolutely does not look the part of an NFL LT, maybe not even a RT.

He is probably a backup G on this team who can fill in in a pinch at T.

Either way he is a bust because if his draft position.

It happens, but we need to stop thinking this guy has anything because McGovern is going to take the LG job in camp and not look back.

Doomsday101 · Jun 1, 2020

I would have to see how McGovern has recovered from his injury and see Biadasz in action before I could make a factual comment on how this OL will be. You have vet talent along with some raw talent it will fall to the OL coach to get these guys up to speed and have them ready but I think there is talent there to work with.

Future · Jun 1, 2020

In 2019:

Adjusted Sack Rate - 2nd
Sacks Allowed - 2nd
Line Yards per Carry - 2nd
Power Run Success - 2nd
Stuffed % - 1st

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/offensive-line/2019

Don't know how there is any question about whether or not they are elite. What impact the loss of Frederick will have remains to be seen.

Future · Jun 1, 2020

glimmerman said:
I just hope MM wants to use them and run Elliot and Pollard. Pass off that and not the other way around. He will see during the game and make adjustments. I think he will make in game adjustments and go for the throat. We haven’t had a HC like that before.

That's not how the NFL works anymore.

Cowboyny · Jun 1, 2020

fivetwos said:
What I know is this...

He played LT at Texas and got himself drafted high.

Moved to G in the NFL and doesnt pass the eye test there. I dont care what PFF may have said for a game or two.

He absolutely does not look the part of an NFL LT, maybe not even a RT.

He is probably a backup G on this team who can fill in in a pinch at T.

Either way he is a bust because if his draft position.

It happens, but we need to stop thinking this guy has anything because McGovern is going to take the LG job in camp and not look back.

I disagree. Many fans forget that Collins also had his struggles at the Guard position. It's not an easy transition as it seems to play Tackle all your life and then play inside on the NFL level. Collins was suppose to be a top 20 pick, many would of said the same things about his draft slotting earlier in his career. He is still developing at the position, is by no means a draft bust. A draft bust is a player who never sees the field.

McKDaddy · Jun 1, 2020

Past couple years: Top 10 units but I think you gotta crack the top 5 to be elite.

I think we have a real chance to return to elite level this season. Freddy wasn't his normal self last year. LG has been inconsistent. Upgrade those two spots and even if the others just hold steady and remain healthy, it's a significant improvement.

I question if Martin will ever be what he once was. Maybe it has all been nagging injuries but he has not been dominant like he was early in his career.

KJJ · Jun 1, 2020

The OL is still solid but it isn’t what it was in 2014 through 2016. Don’t think there was a better OL in the league during those years. Tyron and Zach have had injury issues. Frederick wasn’t the same after he came back from his illness. Connor Williams has been inconsistent. The run blocking wasn’t very good last season. There were games where Zeke looked like he was running into a brick wall. Center could end up being an issue we’ll just have to see.

Gangsta Spanksta · Jun 1, 2020

After losing our latest piece, and considering that they have aged, I would say No, until they prove themselves otherwise. Still a good line but probably not elite. We drafted to give them the chance to become elite again. But the point is: the line isn't always going to be elite. Too many pieces, or too many holes in the Dam to always keep plugged.

fivetwos · Jun 1, 2020

Cowboyny said:
I disagree. Many fans forget that Collins also had his struggles at the Guard position. It's not an easy transition as it seems to play Tackle all your life and then play inside on the NFL level. Collins was suppose to be a top 20 pick, many would of said the same things about his draft slotting earlier in his career. He is still developing at the position, is by no means a draft bust. A draft bust is a player who never sees the field.

I agree that not everyone can transition well to a different position.

Collins was a pretty good guard from what I recall.

Semantics maybe on the word "bust," but when you're a second round pick and never develop into an above average starter, you're a bust.

Williams is well on his way.

I'm hoping for the best out of the guy of course, but I just dont see it.

He doesnt appear to have the size for tackle or the power for inside. He is a backup on this team once the dust settles. I'm actually kinda hoping they move him once it becomes clear he isnt going to win a job.

He is probably worth a 4th or 5th to a team that liked him at UT.

Cowboyny · Jun 1, 2020

fivetwos said:
I agree that not everyone can transition well to a different position.

Collins was a pretty good guard from what I recall.

Semantics maybe on the word "bust," but when you're a second round pick and never develop into an above average starter, you're a bust.

Williams is well on his way.

I'm hoping for the best out of the guy of course, but I just dont see it.

He doesnt appear to have the size for tackle or the power for inside. He is a backup on this team once the dust settles. I'm actually kinda hoping they move him once it becomes clear he isnt going to win a job.

He is probably worth a 4th or 5th to a team that liked him at UT.

-Collins also did struggle at Guard earlier in his career, some may say as much as Conner has. He was a top 20 prospect in his class.
-Connor Williams has gotten better with more experience, a bust wouldn't start so many games nor would he be able to shutout Donald in three games in the sack department, which he has. Yes, he does better against quickness, then he does strength, but that doesn't mean he cannot be effective.
-He is the favorite to start at LG once again, he is way ahead over McGovern at this juncture.

fivetwos · Jun 1, 2020

Cowboyny said:
-Collins also did struggle at Guard earlier in his career, some may say as much as Conner has. He was a top 20 prospect in his class.
-Connor Williams has gotten better with more experience, a bust wouldn't start so many games nor would he be able to shutout Donald in three games in the sack department, which he has. Yes, he does better against quickness, then he does strength, but that doesn't mean he cannot be effective.
-He is the favorite to start at LG once again, he is way ahead over McGovern at this juncture.

Again, semantics with the word bust.

Call him whatever you like, but he is somewhere between average and below average as a starting guard.

He is probably a decent NFL right tackle, but that ain't gonna happen in Dallas...and that's basically a guess since he had reasonable success at LT at Texas.

The fact that he has started a certain amount of games means nothing beyond the team not having a better option (see X. Woods on that one).

Not gonna debate this point endlessly, but if the team's goal is to get the best five on the field, Williams wont be one of them by the time camp ends.

If you're a second round pick and dont have a strong hold on a starting position heading into year three, no one ought to be pleased.

Is our OL still considered Elite?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Likes Collector

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Taco Engineer

"We Are Penn State"

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Intramural Legend

Intramural Legend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You Have an Axe to Grind

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member