Is our OL still considered Elite?

[Cowboyny]

Looney next to Williams aren't going to cut it going forward.

I think we would all agree, Looney is more of a veteran, bridge starter at this juncture. It will all depend on if the likes of Biadasz or McGovern are ready.

 

[Cowboyny]

The answer was in your post. It depends on coaching.

They tried to run a mix of zone and man last season but they struggled in zone. Columbo played in a man scheme.

Connor Williams was much better than most fans believe.

La'el was not as good as your assessment. He made a lot of mistakes in the run game. His positioning for 2nd level blocking was often a problem.

The OC position is going to be a big determining factor in the overall quality of the OLine. All of the candidates should be "good enough" but the question is if any can be better than "good enough".

-In my opinion, I thought Collins was excellent in pass protection. Never really noticed him in the run game, which is why what you are saying stands to be correct. I think it's fair to say, Collins isn't a finished product. It certainly hasn't helped him and the rest of the OL changing coaches, especially when they brought in Alexander teaching a brand new technique. Collins game isn't about his lack of strength, but more so about playing technically sound. It's about the fundamentals that Phibin was talking about.

-The loss of the former Frederick has been the biggest loss for this OL. He was an very unique, elite center in this league before his illness. Had the strength to take on the powerful NT's and could get there out in space to be very effective on the move as a run blocker. The current roster Center's don't have such a skill set, nor do many in this league. McGovern is more about his anchor and suspect in space, Biadasz is the opposite, he will struggle against power players. Both have potential to become good, but not elite at the position.

-Do you see a benefit moving to the West Coast Offense in regards to the OL as it's more of a quick hitting scheme?

 

[Cowboyny]

I agree about the pro bowls but I would add that the cowboys are so high profile that our players get even more of a nod for pro bowl considerations.

Like Jaylon Smith going to the pro bowl last season, lol.

 

[Kaiser]

Like Jaylon Smith going to the pro bowl last season, lol.

Pro Bowls are mostly a popularity contest but Jaylon Smith had 142 tackles last year and even then he was an injury replacement.

 

[charron]

Not anymore. Last year we were good but not elite. Who knows how this year Shakes out. I think we are better coaching wise. Last year showed us we no longer had an all pro center. We have depth on paper but we don't know how some of these guys will actually play just yet.

 

[Cowboyny]

Pro Bowls are mostly a popularity contest but Jaylon Smith had 142 tackles last year and even then he was an injury replacement.

No matter the tackles, did you believe he was pro bowl worthy?

 

[dallasdave]

Is our OL still considered Elite?=== it will be after this year. New coach, couple of new players, and Puttyism -a winning combo @waldoputty

 

[BAT]

Is our OL still considered Elite?=== it will be after this year. New coach, couple of new players, and Puttyism -a winning combo @waldoputty

Both McCarthy and Philbin are Alex Gibbs disciples and run some version of the ZBS (Zone Blocking Scheme).

Dak should see a lot more rollouts and bootlegs called.

If Zeke and Pollard are focused and trust the ZBS, they both could have career years.

Same for the OL, as the ZBS depends on smart scrappy athletic OL to read whether DL is covered or uncovered. Conner Williams should thrive in this system as either OT or OG. Gibbs loved cut blocking and Philbin loves his legal holding (holding inside the shoulder pads/numbers).

All the WRs must be able to block to play. As such, Noah Brown should make the cut because he is one of the best blocking WRs in the game. WR blocking targets will be safeties and LBs. Gibbs considered the corners the worst tacklers so forced these positions to be the primary defenders vs. the run.

Linked below is one of my favorite articles on the modern ZBS.

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/7/25/5928877/alex-gibbs-seahawks-broncos-texans-nfl-zone-blocking

https://www.thephinsider.com/2016/6/9/11893418/football-101-the-zone-blocking-scheme

 

[xwalker]

-In my opinion, I thought Collins was excellent in pass protection. Never really noticed him in the run game, which is why what you are saying stands to be correct. I think it's fair to say, Collins isn't a finished product. It certainly hasn't helped him and the rest of the OL changing coaches, especially when they brought in Alexander teaching a brand new technique. Collins game isn't about his lack of strength, but more so about playing technically sound. It's about the fundamentals that Phibin was talking about.

-The loss of the former Frederick has been the biggest loss for this OL. He was an very unique, elite center in this league before his illness. Had the strength to take on the powerful NT's and could get there out in space to be very effective on the move as a run blocker. The current roster Center's don't have such a skill set, nor do many in this league. McGovern is more about his anchor and suspect in space, Biadasz is the opposite, he will struggle against power players. Both have potential to become good, but not elite at the position.

-Do you see a benefit moving to the West Coast Offense in regards to the OL as it's more of a quick hitting scheme?

West Coast
They had already made significant changes to get away from Dak holding the ball too long which had been a problem in 2018.

Aaron Rodgers is often running around evading pass rushers which tells me the West Coast Offense does not solve all pass protections issues.

Having said that, it should help. The Garrett Offense was outdated and he didn't really change until 2019 when Kellen Moore was the OC.
- Even with Moore, the changes were limited by Garrett. The Saints game comes to mind.
- The first 3 games had an obvious new influence on the offensive scheme, then everything reverted back to Garrett's predictable methods for the Saints game.
- I'm certain part of that was Garrett wanting to go conservative playing in New Orleans, but running the ball into a brick wall DL was just dumb.

La'el & Connor Williams
- CW was better at LG than LC was when he played LG.
- Fans loved seeing LC blowup defenders but consistency and precision is more important than blowing people up.
- LC got too much criticism at one point but in 2019 fans flipped and started over-hyping him.
- They have to get back to being good at zone run blocking.
- The ZBS is what killed the Cowboys defnse vs the Rams in the 2018 season playoff game.
- The ZBS was the top problem for the Cowboys defense in 2019.
- The Cowboys struggles to execute the ZBS on offense was a big problem in several games including the Saints game.
- The 49ers made it to the Super Bowl with average overall talent because they mastered the Kyle Shannahan version of the ZBS.
- The Rams made it to the Super Bowl with average overall talent in 2018 because they mastered a different variation of the ZBS.

Side Note: In the 2018 season Super Bowl Bellichick used many defensive concepts similar to what Nolan has used in the past to shutdown the Rams running game.

 

[Starforever]

No, they sure didn't look like it last year. I don't care about Pro bowls or stats.

 

[Cowboyny]

West Coast
They had already made significant changes to get away from Dak holding the ball too long which had been a problem in 2018.

Aaron Rodgers is often running around evading pass rushers which tells me the West Coast Offense does not solve all pass protections issues.

Having said that, it should help. The Garrett Offense was outdated and he didn't really change until 2019 when Kellen Moore was the OC.
- Even with Moore, the changes were limited by Garrett. The Saints game comes to mind.
- The first 3 games had an obvious new influence on the offensive scheme, then everything reverted back to Garrett's predictable methods for the Saints game.
- I'm certain part of that was Garrett wanting to go conservative playing in New Orleans, but running the ball into a brick wall DL was just dumb.

La'el & Connor Williams
- CW was better at LG than LC was when he played LG.
- Fans loved seeing LC blowup defenders but consistency and precision is more important than blowing people up.
- LC got too much criticism at one point but in 2019 fans flipped and started over-hyping him.
- They have to get back to being good at zone run blocking.
- The ZBS is what killed the Cowboys defnse vs the Rams in the 2018 season playoff game.
- The ZBS was the top problem for the Cowboys defense in 2019.
- The Cowboys struggles to execute the ZBS on offense was a big problem in several games including the Saints game.
- The 49ers made it to the Super Bowl with average overall talent because they mastered the Kyle Shannahan version of the ZBS.
- The Rams made it to the Super Bowl with average overall talent in 2018 because they mastered a different variation of the ZBS.

Side Note: In the 2018 season Super Bowl Bellichick used many defensive concepts similar to what Nolan has used in the past to shutdown the Rams running game.

-If executed the zbs scheme can be very effective. I remember all those Denver teams under Alex Gibbs, he would churn out 1k rushers on a yearly basis.

-Be able to run the football/stop the run has been a staple for successful teams in any era. This is the framework in which everything based off of. We have always been an excellent playaction team under Dak, making a defense one dimension makes a defense job that much easier.

-As I have said about Collins, he needs to become more technically sound and rely less on his athletic abilities.

 

[Kaiser]

No matter the tackles, did you believe he was pro bowl worthy?

There were 10 LBs picked for the Pro Bowl and then Smith went as an injury replacement. Do I believe he was in the 11 - 15 range out of all NFL LBs?

He probably was the year before and would have been last year if there wasn't so many scheme issues with our Defense. I don't think he was a slam dunk choice to make it, but I don't think it was really out of line to make it as a replacement. Even with all the problems last year he tied for 5th in the NFL in tackles among LBs.

 

[dallasdave]

Both McCarthy and Philbin are Alex Gibbs disciples and run some version of the ZBS (Zone Blocking Scheme).

Dak should see a lot more rollouts and bootlegs called.

If Zeke and Pollard are focused and trust the ZBS, they both could have career years.

Same for the OL, as the ZBS depends on smart scrappy athletic OL to read whether DL is covered or uncovered. Conner Williams should thrive in this system as either OT or OG. Gibbs loved cut blocking and Philbin loves his legal holding (holding inside the shoulder pads/numbers).

All the WRs must be able to block to play. As such, Noah Brown should make the cut because he is one of the best blocking WRs in the game. WR blocking targets will be safeties and LBs. Gibbs considered the corners the worst tacklers so forced these positions to be the primary defenders vs. the run.

Linked below is one of my favorite articles on the modern ZBS.

https://www.sbnation.com/2014/7/25/5928877/alex-gibbs-seahawks-broncos-texans-nfl-zone-blocking

https://www.thephinsider.com/2016/6/9/11893418/football-101-the-zone-blocking-scheme

Thanks for the links

 

[BAT]

Philbin may not be a true Alex Gibbs disciple since his history of run blocking performance has been average to below average (Green Bay, Miami, Indianapolis).

Philbin is no Tom Cable. Cable is a true Alex Gibbs ZBS adherent.

So is Matt LaFleur, new GB Packers coach. Learned from Sean McVay, who learned from the Shanahans.

https://horseshoeheroes.com/2016/04/14/can-joe-philbin-solve-the-colts-offensive-line-woes/amp/4/

 

[Cowboyny]

There were 10 LBs picked for the Pro Bowl and then Smith went as an injury replacement. Do I believe he was in the 11 - 15 range out of all NFL LBs?

He probably was the year before and would have been last year if there wasn't so many scheme issues with our Defense. I don't think he was a slam dunk choice to make it, but I don't think it was really out of line to make it as a replacement. Even with all the problems last year he tied for 5th in the NFL in tackles among LBs.

The tackle stat can be misleading. In my opinion, Jaylon had a poor season, yes some can be attribute to the scheme and lack thereof, as well as the absence of Lve.

 

[fairviewfarmer]

Not anymore.

 

[Kaiser]

The tackle stat can be misleading. In my opinion, Jaylon had a poor season, yes some can be attribute to the scheme and lack thereof, as well as the absence of Lve.

Tackles can definitely be misleading, especially for DBs. But you don't get into the top five if you are JAG IMO. I think Jaylon got more criticism than he deserved, especially on pass defense. In the Bears game last season he had two pass breakups in the end zone on TEs and then on the third play the isolated a WR on him that scored. A lot of fans were saying he sucked because of that serious but in reality any WR is going to beat a MLB on that play if they are 1 on 1.

 

[Cowboyny]

Tackles can definitely be misleading, especially for DBs. But you don't get into the top five if you are JAG IMO. I think Jaylon got more criticism than he deserved, especially on pass defense. In the Bears game last season he had two pass breakups in the end zone on TEs and then on the third play the isolated a WR on him that scored. A lot of fans were saying he sucked because of that serious but in reality any WR is going to beat a MLB on that play if they are 1 on 1.

I'm a much bigger fan of Lve then I am of Jaylon Smith, although both didn't play well last season. Yes, the scheme did Jaylon no favors covering WR's, but I guess my biggest issue with him lie more within the run game. In my opinion, when a blocker gets a hand on him, he makes zero effort to make a play, that's a problem.

 

[quickccc]

-Collins-most of us, including myself were scratches our heads when we heard about his extension last season. Boy, were we wrong. Had a tremendous, breakout season, in which he was relatively heathy, which was a big issue for him earlier in his career. He is one of the best RT's in this league and is still getting better.

-Connor Williams-I believe many Cowboy fans don't give him any credit what so ever and believe he is a total bust of a draft pick. First of all, not many rookies are successful plug and play starters, especially learning to play a brand new position. When Connor Williams came in this league, many believe he needs to add more weight to his frame, he did just that after his first season. He clearly was a better player in year 2 and is still developing. Don't be surprised when he beats the competition and starts against this season. Last thing I will say, he isn't a Tackle, there is a reason why they are playing him inside at Guard as he is short armed for the Tackle position.
.

While you're saying Conner Williams is not Tackle because of his short arms, ...and reason why he is playing inside at OG, .
.you do realize the same was being said about Lael Collins,( including and especially the.Cowboys) that were insistent upon him moving inside
and playing him at LG with intent and upon arrival, and were always reluctant to flex him at OT
..until they were forced to upon Doug Free's sudden retirement? .

Collins and Williams have similar arm length, and both have similar athleticism.
And since i'm not seeing short arm extension as a problem with Lael, and he's proven capable without such measurement demand, so i don't see how that should prohibit Williams either.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/connor-williams/32195749-4c20-4393-9715-dea42eb24dc6

https://www.nfl.com/players/la-el-collins/

 

[noshame]

In my opinion, the Cowboy OL was truly elite under Bill Callahan and hasn't been the same since he left. Pollack failed to get his unit to match previous success and was let go in just 2 season, the hiring of Paul Alexander was an utter disaster. Columbo did a better job replacing Alexander, but was let go this offseason as MM wanted to hire his own staff.

I believe Columbo was running more of a man blocking scheme last season compared to Callahan's Zone Blocking Scheme. The biggest benefactor was Collins as he had his best season as a pro. Joe Philbin will bring back the Zone Blocking Scheme, but I have read an old article saying his coaching is more about the fundamentals then the scheme. We heard the same thing from MM regarding the draft, just find us good players and we will scheme around their strengths. This is very refreshing to hear. Let's take a quick look at some of our OL personnel:

-Tyron-it's hard to believe he is only 29 years old. Injuries have taken a toll, but is still a high level blind spot protector in this league. From my own viewpoint, he struggles with edge speed, but if he gets his hands on you, it's game, set, match. He will miss a few starts, but he is still a very good LT in this league.

-Martin-he is also 29 years old, coming off an injury plaque season. Clearly he wasn't right all season and it showed at times. Like Tyron, dealing with back concerns. Even if Martin isn't playing at 100%. he is still better then the majority of Guards in this league.

-Collins-most of us, including myself were scratches our heads when we heard about his extension last season. Boy, were we wrong. Had a tremendous, breakout season, in which he was relatively heathy, which was a big issue for him earlier in his career. He is one of the best RT's in this league and is still getting better.

-Connor Williams-I believe many Cowboy fans don't give him any credit what so ever and believe he is a total bust of a draft pick. First of all, not many rookies are successful plug and play starters, especially learning to play a brand new position. When Connor Williams came in this league, many believe he needs to add more weight to his frame, he did just that after his first season. He clearly was a better player in year 2 and is still developing. Don't be surprised when he beats the competition and starts against this season. Last thing I will say, he isn't a Tackle, there is a reason why they are playing him inside at Guard as he is short armed for the Tackle position.

Is the OL still considered elite? No, but they are still young enough as a group to play at an elite level again. With better coaching, better health and more development it is possible.

First line is truth. Columbo was a fraud. So were the others.