News: Patriots Fans acknowledge Refs help

MarcusRock

MarcusRock

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enemyterritory said:
So, here's my question. If the ref saw a knee down I would have expected lots of arm waving and finger pointing at the ground, etc. You know like what they do when they have a knee down spot. Instead they proceed to inspect the pile and upon reaching the bottom find the ball carrier in the end zone from the hips forward including the ball. They decide not to call a touchdown. So if they needed to inspect the pile in order to make the call what would they have needed to find to call it a TD?
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The arm waving, finger pointing thing is inaccurate. They only do that when they think a pass is incomplete where the ball hit the ground, etc. On goal line/short yardage plays, you always see them run from the sideline along the yardline marker they have in mind. This is what both officials did here. They both ran along a line just outside the end zone and one of the other officials signaled 4th Down even before the pile was unraveled because one of the running officials told him it was.
 
MarcusRock

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glimmerman said:
As I said. If they call it a TD they wouldn’t be able to over turn it. It was a sketchy deal IMO.
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They wouldn't have been able to overturn it in either case and they didn't during the timeout. Steratore said they were probably reviewing it and didn't find anything to buzz down to tell the officials. It's a catch-22 all around because you don't want to call something a TD that isn't but you also want to make sure a TD was an actual TD. And then you get situations like this where you can't see the ball and no one is going to be happy no matter what you choose.
 
MarcusRock

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BleedSilverandBlue said:
I think we can all agree that the officiating in general for both teams was all around horrendous. Do I think the Cowboys got hurt a little more? Definitely. However the no call on the Brown face mask basically saved the game and they did have a touchdown called off the board. I will say though, the amount of ticky-tack holding calls against Dallas during the course of the game really helped to keep that game close when it had no business being close at all. At the end of the day, I truly believe we were the better team and got the W. I do think that the NFL has an officiating problem though. Consistency is next to none from game to game and the improper enforcement of rules like roughing the passer and PI can really wreck a game.
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I agree with you wholeheartedly. The refs just can't cover 11 matchups if there aren't 11 of them. Even then, they'd still miss stuff. But what's interesting is that the conspiracy theorists' fallback excuse when the other team has more penalties is that the refs are selective when they call them and they're usually "game-affecting" calls late. The Brown penalty qualifies as a late game-changer as you've mentioned and yet when you bring that up, then the conspiracy folks go through a list of things they think we got "cheated" on in the 1st Half to ignore their standard of late game-changing. The goal posts never stand still. Lol.
 
Biag

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MarcusRock said:
I watched it a bunch of times myself. That's how I found Dak's knee down. If the ref saw that, then I get not calling it a TD if you didn't definitely see the ball cross. If the ref didn't see it then I agree you almost have to call it a TD. Again, you want to see hard evidence and not assume or "estimate." Was just hard to see through all that stuff.
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Correct me if im wrong but the issue is they didnt say no touchdown until everyone unpiled. If they saw the knee then sure but if they waited to see where he was laying how do they make that call.
 
Biag

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nycpatsfan said:
How are you fans not down on your knees worshipping the refs that help you win the game. In OT your DB grabs a facemask of Nelson A. right in front of the ref, the easiest call in football to make, and doesn't make the call. It was in the open field, no obstruction, and the ref was right there. I have never seen that not called, ever. Not to mention the ticky tack call to take back a pats TD. And don't give the Dak fumble, just the week before, the Pats also got a fumble a the goal line against the Texans, on review, with no clear angle, Its clear the league is siding with a fumble over TD for those at the goal line plays. All you needed to see was last weeks game to understand that. Cowboys can cry all they want, but the refs were a friend yesterday.
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nycpatsfan said:
How are you fans not down on your knees worshipping the refs that help you win the game. In OT your DB grabs a facemask of Nelson A. right in front of the ref, the easiest call in football to make, and doesn't make the call. It was in the open field, no obstruction, and the ref was right there. I have never seen that not called, ever. Not to mention the ticky tack call to take back a pats TD. And don't give the Dak fumble, just the week before, the Pats also got a fumble a the goal line against the Texans, on review, with no clear angle, Its clear the league is siding with a fumble over TD for those at the goal line plays. All you needed to see was last weeks game to understand that. Cowboys can cry all they want, but the refs were a friend yesterday.
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Friendly to Dallas? What game did you watch? How many times did Dak get hit in the face or take a shot after the ball was gone? If it was Brady ever single one of those is called.
 
MarcusRock

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Biag said:
Correct me if im wrong but the issue is they didnt say no touchdown until everyone unpiled. If they saw the knee then sure but if they waited to see where he was laying how do they make that call.
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Not the case. Check my post at the top of this page. I re-watched the video before I made that post. One ref signaled 4th Down after one of the sideline refs that ran in told him it was. This was before you see all the bodies coming off of Dak. Each ref ran in with a spot short of the goal line.
 
CowboyFrog

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MarcusRock said:
Maybe the near side official saw the knee down like I showed in my still shot of the video. That was all he could possibly see. From that point, Dak kept driving forward with Shultz and Jarwin behind him pushing. If you see a knee down but can't locate the ball, do you give all the forward progress gained in the aftermath? By rule, you can't. So like I said before, he "probably" scored but I can also see why the refs were handicapped in calling it a score. Replay wasn't going to save them either way. The big question remains as to whether officials are given clearance to assume a player crossed with the ball if they can't 100% see that he did, and the player doesn't end up 2 yards deep in the endzone where you can say he definitely did.
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But they didnt call it until the unpile..again only 2 options make sense one off the line judges makes a call because he saw a knee (did not happen) or they call it a TD after the unpile (did not happen)....the way it went down was not a logical choice...which is why so many questioned it.
 
MarcusRock

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CowboyFrog said:
But they didnt call it until the unpile..again only 2 options make sense one off the line judges makes a call because he saw a knee (did not happen) or they call it a TD after the unpile (did not happen)....the way it went down was not a logical choice...which is why so many questioned it.
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Again, see the post at the top of this page. They made the 4th Down call before the unpile.
 
MarcusRock

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CowboyFrog said:
No way this is not a TD Marcus you can keep it up but this video is telling

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If it were telling I think they'd have reversed it when they had the chance to review. The other thing to look at there is how deep Dak tucked the ball in to himself. When combined with the fact that this is taken at a huge angle and that Dak's knee touched the ground, I don't see how you can definitively call anything from the angle the officials had. THAT'S what mattered there. Not this one taken from the 20 or greater. So if you see a ball tucked deep and then Dak doesn't get 2 yards into the end zone to remove all doubt, how can you call someone in when they are barely over the line after all that? This is why I think the standard is, you either see the ball go across or you can't call it. Are officials allowed to assume when it's this close? Same question I've been asking since the beginning. Just don't know.
 
CowboyFrog

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MarcusRock said:
If it were telling I think they'd have reversed it when they had the chance to review. The other thing to look at there is how deep Dak tucked the ball in to himself. When combined with the fact that this is taken at a huge angle and that Dak's knee touched the ground, I don't see how you can definitively call anything from the angle the officials had. THAT'S what mattered there. Not this one taken from the 20 or greater. So if you see a ball tucked deep and then Dak doesn't get 2 yards into the end zone to remove all doubt, how can you call someone in when they are barely over the line after all that? This is why I think the standard is, you either see the ball go across or you can't call it. Are officials allowed to assume when it's this close? Same question I've been asking since the beginning. Just don't know.
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But that is what I'm saying 99% of those get called from the unpile or straight called a TD and then reviewed...why was this diferent...

The refs blew this call period...it happens this time it cost us a TD...plain and simple.
 
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MarcusRock

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CowboyFrog said:
But that is what I'm saying 99% of those get called from the unpile or straight called a TD and then reviewed...why was this diferent...

The refs blew this call period...it happens this time it cost us a TD...plain and simple.
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Yeah, I'm not so sure these types of plays get called at the unpile. This is just like a 4th and inches play in the middle of the field where the refs run in with a yardline in mind based on what they saw. They don't unpile and spot the ball based on where the runner is then. They look to see if they could see the ball get to a point and then try to mark it there. Same for if the play is reviewed. At the goal line it's no different except you're trying to see the ball touch a specific line. As I said before, Dak kept plowing forward (and was pushed forward) after his knee hit. You can't call a player down where he ends up. And even after all the unpiling, he was barely a yard in the end zone. What do you do if you're a ref with a down the line view, see Dak tuck the ball deep into himself but then barely get in the end zone from all the pushing and shoving?
 
Chuck 54

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If they thought Dak was down short of the goal line, they blow the whistle and run up with foot or hand pointing short and hand up signaling end of play or next down or arm pointing the other way. We’ve all seen this scenerio hundreds of times because that’s how refs call it.

In this case, the refs run up and patiently call nothing while waiting for the mass of humanity to clear. We have also seen this hundreds of times when simply waiting to see if the player still has the ball, that no fumble occurred, or rarely to see if the ball is in or out of the end zone. That’s how it’s always done.

To wait for the defenders and blockers to be cleared away, without any signal, and then see Dak in the end zone with the ball in hand, it simply made no sense to then for the first time to call him short and give the ball to NE. THAT we have not seen that I can recall. That’s just not how refs are trained to do it.
 
MarcusRock

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Chuck 54 said:
If they thought Dak was down short of the goal line, they blow the whistle and run up with foot or hand pointing short and hand up signaling end of play or next down or arm pointing the other way. We’ve all seen this scenerio hundreds of times because that’s how refs call it.

In this case, the refs run up and patiently call nothing while waiting for the mass of humanity to clear. We have also seen this hundreds of times when simply waiting to see if the player still has the ball, that no fumble occurred, or rarely to see if the ball is in or out of the end zone. That’s how it’s always done.

To wait for the defenders and blockers to be cleared away, without any signal, and then see Dak in the end zone with the ball in hand, it simply made no sense to then for the first time to call him short and give the ball to NE. THAT we have not seen that I can recall. That’s just not how refs are trained to do it.
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Post at the top of the page. The refs called him down and another ref signaled 4th Down before the pile even cleared so they didn't wait for that.
 
Beaker42

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Cydios said:
I was gonna start a new thread about this, but I'll mingle it with this one.. Anyone think the refs were calling the plays dead too quickly? There was a play where Schultz caught the ball, was spun at the hip for a tackle.. From there the refs blew the whistle. I just watched this play 5 times. His knees never touched the ground! He had clear skies in front of him. I'm not saying that was 7 points, but that was going to be big yards.

Here's the video I found.

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Yeah I was mad pi$$ed at that call. Let it go then you can always return to the spot if his knee touched. That crew was seriously in Kraft’s pocket. No other explanation for some of those calls and penalties on us.
 
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