Is Garrett running Air Coryell or not?

I personally do not see much similarity between Martz and Coryell, but I do see some between Garrett and Coryell.

Almost all passing attacks are timing oriented which was only one aspect of Coryell's attack. The WCO is a timing based passing attack, but not an air Coryell heir.

Air Coryell was a deep and mid range route timing Offense. That is what made it so unique. Coryell often sent 5 receivers into the pattern and at least 2 were on fly patterns making the Defense stretch the field.

Norv's Offense, much like Coryell's really uses a good TE to its advantage. TEs tend to disappear in Martz' offense. That is where I chiefly see a difference.

Garrett does utilize the TEs which is why I do see some Coryell similarities. Garrett also has ties to Ernie Zampese who like Norv was a Coryell disciple. Martz is a Coryell disciple, but he runs different schemes and he is not afraid to abandon the run. Coryell never did. He always had a strong RB who could run between the OTs and Gibbs is probably the Coryell heir who perfected that aspect of his system.

So, I tend to agree with Garrett that Coryell would recognize our system. Hard running attack. TE in use. Deep to mid range passing plays.

I hope that made sense.

Norv and Zampese were more run oriented than Coryell, but whole point of the system was to stretch the field both vertically as well as horizontally_exposing seams in the opposing defenses.

I actually had the chance to talk to Don for maybe 20 minutes about his offense, and yes some of you are spot on. This offense is designed to get the ball 15-30 yds down the field. It's likely been tweaked even more so this year with the addition of Dez and the replacement of Flo.

I'm not entirely sure we can keep a QB alive all year to run it. There a reason this offense(today's version) has morphed into a more short -intermediate attack.

noshame;3505662 said:

I actually had the chance to talk to Don for maybe 20 minutes about his offense, and yes some of you are spot on. This offense is designed to get the ball 15-30 yds down the field. It's likely been tweaked even more so this year with the addition of Dez and the replacement of Flo.

I'm not entirely sure we can keep a QB alive all year to run it. There a reason this offense(today's version) has morphed into a more short -intermediate attack.

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Sure we can. Columbo will start from day 1 and Kosier will be back after the bye. Holland can man LG for 2 games.

Roy runs to a spot and then the ball hits the ground at that spot. The timing in this case is measured from the point where the ball touches Roy's hands to the point where it makes contact with the ground. I believe that guys like Randal Williams, Macey Brooks, and Alexander Wright were accomplished vets in this timing based offense. Hopefully Roy can mentor Kevin Ogletree and keep the tradition alive.

Great thread, guys.

Obviously the offenses have all been influenced by WCO, but I can't think of any team that is running an offense that looks like 49ers anymore.

The Coryell approach seems to have had greater influence over time than Walsh's approach.

Thoughts?

T-RO;3505932 said:

Great thread, guys.

Obviously the offenses have all been influenced by WCO, but I can't think of any team that is running an offense that looks like 49ers anymore.

The Coryell approach seems to have had greater influence over time than Walsh's approach.

Thoughts?

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I actually think Coryell influenced the WCO, not the other way around.

Hostile;3505934 said:

I actually think Coryell influenced the WCO, not the other way around.

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The WCO (named derisively by Bill Parcells) is attributed to Bill Walsh...but Walsh really got a lot of it from Paul Brown.

So it predates Coryell.

If you mean that Coryell influence the direction of how the WCO evolved, then certainly I'd agree with that.

Hostile;3505934 said:

I actually think Coryell influenced the WCO, not the other way around.

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this is true. The WCO was actually the Dallas/Air Coryell offense of Norv Tuner...I belive Dr Z coined WCO offense during Cowboys dynasty of 90's based of Coryell system that was run out in San Diego State (west coast). The bill walsh offense (often confused with WCO) was more horizontal. Some confused 49ers offense as WCO offense cause it was also on the west coast...but 49ers offense (bill walsh offense) had its roots from when Walsh was offensive assistant coach for the Bengals. Walsh developed this offense because the starter Greg Cook went down with injury and the back up QB was Virgil Carter (who couldnt throw the ball 20 yards down the the field according to Bruce Coslet) ...so Walsh devised plan for short throws that utilized the running back to run routes into voids created by blitzing linebackers...so the Walsh offense was originally an "emergency offense" created until the starting QB got back...but was successful immediately.

Coryell system (spread offense) was based more on spacing...get as deep into the route as possible. In Air Coryell system...the QB is taught to read from deepest pattern to shortest pattern. In Walsh system...it was opposite...read from shortest pattern to longest pattern.

We have a gentleman's disagreement based on our sources.

From Wikipedia:

The term "West Coast Offense," as it is now commonly used, derives from a remark made by then-New York Giants coach Bill Parcells after the Giants defeated the San Francisco 49ers 17-3 in the 1985 playoffs. Parcells, a believer in tough defense over finesse-oriented offense, scornfully derided the 49ers' offense with the statement, "What do you think of that West Coast Offense now?"

laythewood28;3505427 said:

I dont see it as a timing offense. I see Romo holding the ball a little longer letting his receiver get open to make it an easier throw while with Aikman he threw it even if the receiver was open or not. Romo's passing windows seem to be larger.

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Romo's windows have to be larger, he does not have Aikmans howitzer for an arm. Thats why IMO Williams will not work out with Romo. He cannot get enough separation.

T-RO;3505970 said:

We have a gentleman's disagreement based on our sources.

From Wikipedia:

The term "West Coast Offense," as it is now commonly used, derives from a remark made by then-New York Giants coach Bill Parcells after the Giants defeated the San Francisco 49ers 17-3 in the 1985 playoffs. Parcells, a believer in tough defense over finesse-oriented offense, scornfully derided the 49ers' offense with the statement, "What do you think of that West Coast Offense now?"

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I think its universally understood that Bernie Kosar coined phrase "west coast offense" during Sports Illistrate interview in 1992 while back-up QB in Dallas. Parcells might have mentioned the phrase...but it was not used by media/fans until after Kosar comments to Dr Z in 1992.

I think the Coryell offense has evolved under Norv and Garrett in very different ways. Norv's version should probably be called Ground Coryell because his offense started with the power running game.

The Garrett version is a much more pass oriented, reflecting the current NFL game and returning to the Air Coryell roots. However, their are differences. In the passing game, Garret's offense seems to rely more on slants and routes that allow receivers to run after the catch. He also mixes in more horizontal routes like bubble screens as a way of defeating blitz packages.

Garrett also tends to run the ball more out of passing formations (e.g. the draw out of the shotgun). As has become prevalent in the NFL now, he runs more plays (run and pass) out of two TE formations rather than using a FB or 3WR sets.

jay cee;3505972 said:

Romo's windows have to be larger, he does not have Aikmans howitzer for an arm. Thats why IMO Williams will not work out with Romo. He cannot get enough separation.

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Troy, in the day, was critisized for not having a real strong arm. His excellence was in his leadership and accuracy.

LUVDABOYS;3505988 said:

Troy, in the day, was critisized for not having a real strong arm. His excellence was in his leadership and accuracy.

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dude, I dont know what Troy you are referrring to, but Aikman had one of the strongest arms in football...nobody threw deep outs or deep slants/posts better than he did...those were staples of Norv/Zampese's passing game, and he made those throws in his sleep...

The velocity he threw the ball with was extremely impressive. Seveal of our WR's had the hand/finger injuries to prove it. Nobody in his time had the combination of accuracy and velocity he had. Some may have had an overall stronger arm (like for instance John Elway) but none could throw it as close to accuracy as he could.

LUVDABOYS;3505988 said:

Troy, in the day, was critisized for not having a real strong arm.

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LUVDABOYS;3505988 said:

Troy, in the day, was critisized for not having a real strong arm. His excellence was in his leadership and accuracy.

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wow, just, wow?

Wood;3505973 said:

I think its universally understood that Bernie Kosar coined phrase "west coast offense" during Sports Illistrate interview in 1992 while back-up QB in Dallas. Parcells might have mentioned the phrase...but it was not used by media/fans until after Kosar comments to Dr Z in 1992.

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Pretty sure that the term "West Coast Offense" was said well before 1992, and that it was mentioned directly in connection with Bill Walsh's 49'er teams that had won numerous super bowls in the 1980's.

I remember watching a TV program about Walsh and the WCO and that it really could be called the mid-ohio offense because he started learning under Paul Brown.

LUVDABOYS;3505988 said:

Troy, in the day, was critisized for not having a real strong arm. His excellence was in his leadership and accuracy.

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Troy threw the ball so hard that the tip of the ball went between Alvin Harper's fingers and actually split his hand down the middle. It required several stitches to close the wound.

He was known for having a very strong arm coming out of UCLA.

LUVDABOYS;3505988 said:

Troy, in the day, was critisized for not having a real strong arm. His excellence was in his leadership and accuracy.

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Where did this come from?