Problem I have with Dak and our Offense

percyhoward · Jan 20, 2020

Cwby41 said:
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

I'm curious as to why you'd take garbage time and weak schedule into account, but you wouldn't also consider things like drive success rate, dropped passes, and average starting field position. According to Football Outsiders' DVOA, Dallas ranks as the #2 offense in 2019, and Prescott is the #6 quarterback.

The other advanced metrics that account for those things I mentioned (and more) basically agree with FO. Pro Football Focus grades Dallas as the 4th-best offense. Among QB with at least 300 attempts, PFF grades Prescott as the 9th-best, and ranks him 2nd in wins above replacement QB. Sports Info Solutions doesn't rank teams, but ranks Dak as 2nd in Total Points and 8th in IQR (basically Total Points/Play).

I tend to defer to the people who watch every play of every game for every offense. There's insight to be gained from that much wider perspective.

Future · Jan 20, 2020

WillieBeamen said:
End of convo

It was 31-3 with 3:34 left in the 3rd quarter.

He had 2 INTs and the offense held the ball for only 12 minutes. The longest drive he led was 9 plays. Doesnt sound like moving the ball at will to me

The second INT went off of the WRs hands. They only held the ball 12 minutes b/c they kept getting chunk plays. They had 3 completions of over 20 yards on the first 3 drives. On their worst drive, they didn't throw a pass, not sure how that's him leading anything...

Let's go this way, outside of Mahomes and Wilson, what QBs would you say could come into this team and not be an "issue" in Jason Garrett's offense?

WillieBeamen · Jan 20, 2020

Future said:
The second INT went off of the WRs hands. They only held the ball 12 minutes b/c they kept getting chunk plays. They had 3 completions of over 20 yards on the first 3 drives. On their worst drive, they didn't throw a pass, not sure how that's him leading anything...

Let's go this way, outside of Mahomes and Wilson, what QBs would you say could come into this team and not be an "issue" in Jason Garrett's offense?

Nah we arent going to do this

Future · Jan 20, 2020

WillieBeamen said:
Nah we arent going to do this

B/c you know your list would be garbage if those players are held to the same standard you're holding Dak to.

SackMaster · Jan 20, 2020

charron said:
Teams know what everyone is doing for the most part. there are very few surprises on most plays.

While somewhat true when it comes to the play design, the biggest problem was how Dallas game-planned nearly everyone the same exactly way, week after week.

Just take Sam Darnold in 2019:

Week 6 vs the Cowboys:
Sam Darnold on the Cowboys: “They just kind of did what they do. They do it every single week. They just play one-high, occasionally two-high, and they like to stop the run. I knew that I had to throw the ball today to have success, and we did that.”

Week 7 vs the Patriots:
Darnold, in his own words, was "Seeing ghosts" because the Patriots do not do the same thing every week regardless of opponent.

Then of course, how many time have we heard the same thing about the offense?

I get it, there is not a whole lot of unique ways to run a play in the NFL. But there was a severe lack of game planning on how to attack specific teams all throughout the Garrett Era.

Hopefully that changes under MM.

Rockport · Jan 20, 2020

Cwby41 said:
First off Im a Dak fan I like the kid and who he is and how he handles himself. I dont see him being a elite QB at this time and Im not a fan of over paying him. That being said he will get paid around 33 to 35 mill with heavy guarantees. Just my feeling
The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense. Saints, Packers, Bears, Bills, Vikes, Pats and even second game against a banged up Philly Def. We couldnt score. So the question is were we just that more talented to overtake the lesser defenses or is our scheme so poor that better teams we weren't able to rely just totally on skill alone.
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

The Cowboys have hired a new HC. Right now there is no offense to ***** about.

Ranched · Jan 20, 2020

MEANWHILE....

charron · Jan 20, 2020

SackMaster said:
While somewhat true when it comes to the play design, the biggest problem was how Dallas game-planned nearly everyone the same exactly way, week after week.

Just take Sam Darnold in 2019:

Week 6 vs the Cowboys:
Sam Darnold on the Cowboys: “They just kind of did what they do. They do it every single week. They just play one-high, occasionally two-high, and they like to stop the run. I knew that I had to throw the ball today to have success, and we did that.”

Week 7 vs the Patriots:
Darnold, in his own words, was "Seeing ghosts" because the Patriots do not do the same thing every week regardless of opponent.

Then of course, how many time have we heard the same thing about the offense?

I get it, there is not a whole lot of unique ways to run a play in the NFL. But there was a severe lack of game planning on how to attack specific teams all throughout the Garrett Era.

Hopefully that changes under MM.

From his time in GB their playcalling was just as predictable as ours the difference for their offense was Rodgers being able to ad lib and make things happen when they play broke down. Our new DC doesn't have a big track record of stringing together great defenses, sure he gets lucky 1 out of 3-4 years but overall his defenses aren't top 10 either. Most team just are not the patriots, Most can not change their core game by game, play by play like they do. The ravens looked unstoppable untill they get stopped. even when the rams went to the SB and they were called un predictable they still only ran a handful of plays the majority of the time.

Whirlwin · Jan 20, 2020

Cwby41 said:
First off Im a Dak fan I like the kid and who he is and how he handles himself. I dont see him being a elite QB at this time and Im not a fan of over paying him. That being said he will get paid around 33 to 35 mill with heavy guarantees. Just my feeling
The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense. Saints, Packers, Bears, Bills, Vikes, Pats and even second game against a banged up Philly Def. We couldnt score. So the question is were we just that more talented to overtake the lesser defenses or is our scheme so poor that better teams we weren't able to rely just totally on skill alone.
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

It is truly difficult to judge anything on this current team. Without the correct coaching scheme how can you possibly evaluate what we have. You can’t go from being brilliant to out right ***. Yep I put it on the coaching in the scheme

SackMaster · Jan 20, 2020

blueblood70 said:
NOT TRUE thats the biggest myth on this site..

id this were true the teams we did put most of those record allegedly padded garbage stats against us would have held us to ZERO points and spanked us 31-0

thats just FAN BS....

the better defenses simply slowed us like they do most teams , they were BETTER and we didnt counter well but the biggest factor in those losses were MISTAKES by players, lack of execution, fumbles, poor blocking, poor throw's, bad tackling, untimely penalty's, and some poor play calling..Bad defense at times or really bad ST missed Fgs etc etc all that cost us close games, they were close so we are so predictable hows that possible?

you cant finish top 10 in offense and defense if you have an offense and defense that is so predictable a cave man can stop it..

the better teams simply executed better.... in the NFL doesnt take much to flip a loss to win or win to a loss..fine line we lost 6 games by less then 4 points...that 2nd philly game 2nd half pour WRs were WIDE OPEN..we had time to throw and Dak choked injured or not.. thats not an issue with scheme or play calling, they could have easily won that game by 10... Dak just failed to hit open receivers..many of the losses zeke has over 5YPC in the first half he led the league , hows that if we are predictable does that happen? we simply got behind abandon the run or vice versa, some was coaching, play calling but most was players making mistakes..

In no way was I trying to excuse players for their lack of execution. But how often did we see one of our players used in a scheme in such a way that took advantage of another team's less than great player?

Dak has his weaknesses, but when the Defense knows that the WR is just running to the sticks and turning around, how hard is it for them to just sit on the route?

Just flip it. How many less-than-Pro Bowl caliber QBs or RBs did Dallas make look pretty good last year?
When the D has the CBs off the WR by 10 yards on a 3rd and 4, of course they could not execute a stop on the quick slant. Is that the player's fault or the scheme for allowing a team a quick pitch and catch?
And then when the defense, despite being absolutely exposed for their careless gap responsibility, does the same thing over and over again, is it the players fault for ignoring the coaching, or could it be due to the d-line scheme being relatively easy to read and beat?

Even with MM, the players need to execute. I'm just hoping that MM makes it a little easier for the players to execute when the opposing offense and defenses has to be mindful of multiple things on most plays.

Whirlwin · Jan 20, 2020

WillieBeamen said:
All I know is I quickly looked at Wentz and Goff and they have 3x the number of wins against the same defenses.

Wentz alone this year beat:

GB
CHI
BUF

To Blaine Prescott for any of this. Is it out right blinded irresponsibility. You don’t go from having a brilliant rookie season to out right horrible. It’s the scheme make no mistake about it. Coaching.

Whirlwin · Jan 20, 2020

Prescott is a winner. He wasn’t the guy tripping on his own ego on the goal line. I’m not saying he was great. But the blame him for any of this is ridiculous. We lost as a team because our coaching suck. How many times did we start drives inside our own 15 yard line. Special teams was more responsible for losing games and any other thing I could put my finger on

Whirlwin · Jan 20, 2020

Cwby41 said:
First off Im a Dak fan I like the kid and who he is and how he handles himself. I dont see him being a elite QB at this time and Im not a fan of over paying him. That being said he will get paid around 33 to 35 mill with heavy guarantees. Just my feeling
The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense. Saints, Packers, Bears, Bills, Vikes, Pats and even second game against a banged up Philly Def. We couldnt score. So the question is were we just that more talented to overtake the lesser defenses or is our scheme so poor that better teams we weren't able to rely just totally on skill alone.
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

To blame anything other than coaching. Which simply be a lack of knowledge about what truly happens.

Bullet22 · Jan 20, 2020

Hadenough said:
And when he does see them its a 50/50 chance he makes a good throw.

As with every qb..

Future · Jan 20, 2020

charron said:
Teams know what everyone is doing for the most part. there are very few surprises on most plays.

I don't think this is true at all, at least for good offenses. Teams are totally off balance playing against Baltimore and KC. Tennessee and SF are generally that way as well.

Teams like Dallas and LA are more predictable, but when they play against numbers, you're still putting the defense in a position where they guessed wrong, it was just pre-snap.

reddyuta · Jan 20, 2020

my problem with the offense is that they had no easy yards,no easy dump offs and screens for Dak to make it easy for Zeke.compared to other teams we had to work harder for every yard.

pansophy · Jan 20, 2020

Future said:
Uh, no I'm not. I've always been critical of Dak. He has a bunch of flaws as a passer.

Ok, now do this for other quarterbacks, and include their actual passing numbers, and make the connection on how they tie to wins/losses.

You're doing exactly what Dak "homers" have always done, which is make wins/losses a QB stat.

Totally agree. QBs are judged by wins and losses but it’s a team sport. Offense was #1 in yards, but our special teams were near the bottom in so many categories that our starting field position was horrible all year.

It’s to the offense’s credit that they were able to make long drives, but they were only necessary due to poor field position all year. It’s all connected and rarely do people point these connections out.

Dak’s new mechanics were a game changer in the beginning of the year IMO. When we played better defenses perhaps those new mechanics broke down a bit, but mechanics are about reps so he has shown he change his motion and have that result in better accuracy. Should only get better with time and reps, and frankly I can’t recall seeing a QB grow in that area before. Shoulder in the last few weeks makes it hard to judge but Dak was missing a lot.

The problem with all these conversations is that Garrett has been here so long. A new offense that is supposed to make Dak successful should shed light on it, but I think we are on a good place with Dak.

johneric8 · Jan 20, 2020

Cwby41 said:
First off Im a Dak fan I like the kid and who he is and how he handles himself. I dont see him being a elite QB at this time and Im not a fan of over paying him. That being said he will get paid around 33 to 35 mill with heavy guarantees. Just my feeling
The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense. Saints, Packers, Bears, Bills, Vikes, Pats and even second game against a banged up Philly Def. We couldnt score. So the question is were we just that more talented to overtake the lesser defenses or is our scheme so poor that better teams we weren't able to rely just totally on skill alone.
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

Please..... Dak has won plenty of games against good teams.

the 2019 cowboys were playing with a coach in Jason Garrett they knew was gone at season end.
There is no way that our cowboys were locked in and loaded considering they had no belief in coaching
and all the turmoil within our staff..

Dak is a great QB, quit obsessing over it, it's not Dak, fix the team Dak will shine.

charron · Jan 20, 2020

Future said:
I don't think this is true at all, at least for good offenses. Teams are totally off balance playing against Baltimore and KC. Tennessee and SF are generally that way as well.

Teams like Dallas and LA are more predictable, but when they play against numbers, you're still putting the defense in a position where they guessed wrong, it was just pre-snap.

Kc didn't do much to surprise anyone. What Mahomes can do is use his legs to keep plays alive that is the difference.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 20, 2020

blueblood70 said:
NOT TRUE thats the biggest myth on this site..

id this were true the teams we did put most of those record allegedly padded garbage stats against us would have held us to ZERO points and spanked us 31-0

thats just FAN BS....

the better defenses simply slowed us like they do most teams , they were BETTER and we didnt counter well but the biggest factor in those losses were MISTAKES by players, lack of execution, fumbles, poor blocking, poor throw's, bad tackling, untimely penalty's, and some poor play calling..Bad defense at times or really bad ST missed Fgs etc etc all that cost us close games, they were close so we are so predictable hows that possible?

you cant finish top 10 in offense and defense if you have an offense and defense that is so predictable a cave man can stop it..

the better teams simply executed better.... in the NFL doesnt take much to flip a loss to win or win to a loss..fine line we lost 6 games by less then 4 points...that 2nd philly game 2nd half pour WRs were WIDE OPEN..we had time to throw and Dak choked injured or not.. thats not an issue with scheme or play calling, they could have easily won that game by 10... Dak just failed to hit open receivers..many of the losses zeke has over 5YPC in the first half he led the league , hows that if we are predictable does that happen? we simply got behind abandon the run or vice versa, some was coaching, play calling but most was players making mistakes..

I don't think I entirely agree with all of this. I think it is certainly possible to be predictable but also successful. I mean, we haven't really been able to do that over the past few years but teams have done that in the past. The Cowboys of the 90s were exactly that team. They just were so talented and they simply executed so well that it didn't matter. So I do believe that this approach is viable.

I do believe that there is such a thing as garbage time stats. Heck, I know there is such a thing. When teams get up on you, and every coach knows this, you call the game differently because at some point, the enemy ceases to be the team across from you and becomes the clock. So you do change how you call the game. You play the clock and you don't worry about the yards, necessarily. You want to protect against the big plays that can lead to quick points so you give up shorter stuff. I mean, I know that you know this. I was just making the point that I do believe there are junk stats in games for sure.

JMO

Problem I have with Dak and our Offense

Research Tool

Intramural Legend

BoysfanfromNY

Intramural Legend

Well-Known Member

AmberBeer

"We Are Penn State"

Well-Known Member

Cowboy , It’s a way of life.

Well-Known Member

Cowboy , It’s a way of life.

Cowboy , It’s a way of life.

Cowboy , It’s a way of life.

Well-Known Member

Intramural Legend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Regular Joe....