150 Years Ago Today...

[MichaelWinicki]

During the 2nd day of the "Battle of Seven Pines", some 15 Union regiments were involved in firefights that lasted about an hour and a half. The result was about 70 men lost per regiment or less than 1 man per regiment per minute of firing.

You think about it, and it's not as great a loss as one would think given the large amount of casualties occuring at many of the battles.

If soldiers on both sides had more practice with their weapons, the causalty lists would have been even worse, but even with better aim, it didn't take long for smoke to make it nearly impossible to see the opposition.

 

[Kangaroo]

Actually there was a slim chance afterwards; if Atlanta had held and the east had been kept stalemated there was hope that Lincoln would lose the election and the democrat would look for a armistice. But in reality even if Lincoln had lost the election by the time McClellan had come into office the south would have been done anyway.

Realistically the only chance the South really had was to be recognized by england and france; but the odds of them ever doing that with a country that had slavery was very slim.


It was not so much the minie ball that caused the casualties; it was the fact that rifles were so much more accurate then muskets; and the formations stayed the same. So lots of easy targets.

The large 58 caliber ball or minie ball would destroy any bone it hit; that was the reason for the huge number of amputations. That damage was only able to be repaired in the last 20 years or so.

The shock of that large round hitting the body also caused lots of damage; and of course the fact that medicine had not really progressed that much up to then did not help.

two thirds of the 600,000 that died in the war died of disease; not battle wounds.

The Minie ball had everything to do with the changes. You realize during the American Revolution the British used rifled weapons and most the Americans used smooth bore. the problem with the old rifling it was a one to two shots before they had to take them apart and clean them before they could fire again. They where more accurate but could fire less often and while the others fired a lot they where in accurate at long range.

The Minie ball revolutionized the Rfile by allowing them to fire high volumes of rounds now. Longer distance (like the British used for a long time) with out being limited two a couple shots.

Then you add in the paper cartridge which no longer required you to use a flask and a measuring horn to power powered and of course the copper precision which had been around a while before the Civil war.

 

[Bizwah]

I have a minie ball from Antietam in my classroom. Unfortunately, I now teach Geography and not American History. I would love to switch again....

I have a friend who is related to John B. Gordon....he was the Confederate officer that tried to hold the middle of Lee's line at Bloody Lane. He was shot five times...including square in the face.

Most on the board here have their history right. England and France held the South's best hope of gaining independence.

Lincoln issueing the Emancipation Proclaimation was genius. No, not one slave was freed due to this....but it kept England and France out of the war.

 

[burmafrd]

The Minie ball had everything to do with the changes. You realize during the American Revolution the British used rifled weapons and most the Americans used smooth bore. the problem with the old rifling it was a one to two shots before they had to take them apart and clean them before they could fire again. They where more accurate but could fire less often and while the others fired a lot they where in accurate at long range.

The Minie ball revolutionized the Rfile by allowing them to fire high volumes of rounds now. Longer distance (like the British used for a long time) with out being limited two a couple shots.

Then you add in the paper cartridge which no longer required you to use a flask and a measuring horn to power powered and of course the copper precision which had been around a while before the Civil war.

I do not know where you got your information about the British using rifled weapons during the Revolution but you are totally and completely wrong. Google Brown Bess. It was a smoothbore that was standard issue for the British Army from 1722 to 1838.

Now the Continental Army was using smoothbores as well; except for the Rifle Units that had local Pennsylvania design rifled weapons. Probably 90% of the Continental army used smoothbores.

Now as regards the casualties of round ball vs Minie Ball; early in the war most weapons were either smoothbore or used round balls. It was not until production increased that the minie ball was used exclusively.

in the early battles and frankly through the first two years of the Civil War it would not have made much difference as massed ranks and close action meant little difference as regards the damage done by the type of bullett.

 

[Kangaroo]

I do not know where you got your information about the British using rifled weapons during the Revolution but you are totally and completely wrong. Google Brown Bess. It was a smoothbore that was standard issue for the British Army from 1722 to 1838.

Now the Continental Army was using smoothbores as well; except for the Rifle Units that had local Pennsylvania design rifled weapons. Probably 90% of the Continental army used smoothbores.

Now as regards the casualties of round ball vs Minie Ball; early in the war most weapons were either smoothbore or used round balls. It was not until production increased that the minie ball was used exclusively.

in the early battles and frankly through the first two years of the Civil War it would not have made much difference as massed ranks and close action meant little difference as regards the damage done by the type of bullett.

I screwed up that part but the rifles had a 1 to 2 shots for a rifled gun before they needed cleaning. The minie ball was not created until 1848 and it did change the war the bullet itself started changing the weapons used by the military.

 

[jobberone]

Don't want to steal the thread but 81 years ago today the real start of what would be WWII started with the taking of three Chinese provinces by the Japanese.

 

[Kangaroo]

Do you guys remember which battle it was Antietam or Gettysburg where they fired so much ammo that they found clumps of Bullets and cannon balls that hit each other midair during the battle.

 

[Aikmaniac]

Do you guys remember which battle it was Antietam or Gettysburg where they fired so much ammo that they found clumps of Bullets and cannon balls that hit each other midair during the battle.

I'm sure that happened elsewhere as well, but I did see what you mentioned at the Gettysburg Museum. They had all the different rifles used and two rounds which hit each other.

Amazing.

I also visited Andersonville Prison in GA. As Michael mentioned earlier, it was completely ironic at how beautiful the rolling hills are up there. One thing I also noticed was the pure heat out there. It was stagnant. Deer flies were aggravating me while I was trying to take pictures. Hard to fathom what those guards and prisoners went through.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

I'm sure that happened elsewhere as well, but I did see what you mentioned at the Gettysburg Museum. They had all the different rifles used and two rounds which hit each other.

Amazing.

I also visited Andersonville Prison in GA. As Michael mentioned earlier, it was completely ironic at how beautiful the rolling hills are up there. One thing I also noticed was the pure heat out there. It was stagnant. Deer flies were aggravating me while I was trying to take pictures. Hard to fathom what those guards and prisoners went through.

I suspect they had it easier than the prisoners.

 

[Aikmaniac]

I suspect they had it easier than the prisoners.

Not that much easier. You should read about the prison.

 

[burmafrd]

Not that much easier. You should read about the prison.

The guards did not die in anywhere NEAR the percentage the prisoners did. No comparison

 

[burmafrd]

I screwed up that part but the rifles had a 1 to 2 shots for a rifled gun before they needed cleaning. The minie ball was not created until 1848 and it did change the war the bullet itself started changing the weapons used by the military.

Having a 1861 Springfield that I have used, I can safely say that you can get about 7-10 shots in before the buildup starts to really matter.

Early in the Civil war both sides were using older weapons; there just were not the production yet to equip either army. It was not until around the middle of 1862 that both sides standardized (for the south as much as possible) their equipment.

One reason many military types did not want to go to the rifle was that the rate of fire slowed down due to fowling in the bore. They did not get- and many others took even longer to get- just how much difference that rifling made to accuracy even without the minie ball. Yes your rate of fire would slow but the accuracy advantage was so much greater.

And for the Brown Bess you were lucky to hit a man at a distance greater then 100 feet. Some claims for its accuracy are laughable.

The British army NEVER fired their weapons except in battle; another reason their accuracy was poor even with rilfles. A friend of mine has a Brown Bess, reproduction of course but one that is very close with even an iron barrell. It is a very heavy weapon; another reason that accuracy was bad.

The British did not like to spend money on things like learning how your weapon acts once it gets hot, etc. Even to train their troops to fire more accurately. That really hurt them in a lot of battles. That kind of mentality lasted until almost 1900.

 

[Aikmaniac]

The guards did not die in anywhere NEAR the percentage the prisoners did. No comparison

Of course.

However, it was no picnic as they ran out of food and died of the same diseases and infections that the prisoners did.

 

[burmafrd]

Of course.

However, it was no picnic as they ran out of food and died of the same diseases and infections that the prisoners did.

They could desert and run away. Not like the prisoners could

 

[Doomsday101]

Part of the death toll was due to battle tactics not matching the change in weapons with the invention of the Minieball then you add in the paper cartridge and the copper percussion which made easier loading, more accurate weapons and less cleaning. I did an entire paper on it in Highschool. Wish i still had a copy of that dam thing so I would have all my references. I knocked the socks of my JORTC instructor when I did my oral speech and my written part. I was 17 and was giving a speech covering material he was taking in a upper level college history course.

I ought to get back to reading stuff like that again.

Anyways good stuff as always

Much of the death toll can be contributed to medical limitations. Many of the wounds could have been treated in modern times successfully as opposed to the condition and lack of knowledge and medicine available to them.

 

[ShiningStar]

I don't want to get into the politics of the war here.

There are many places on the web that will give you several different, and many times conflicting points of view on the "why's" of the conflict.

its so simple it passes over people, the point of the war was to kill people and or make them submit to your will, in this case, death, people died in a war, amazing. yes there were lots of deaths, tons due to lack of medical knowledge which is why some people are for nasa regardless of successes vs failures because it helps other fields. look up plastic one day.

another reason for deaths, the tactics and formations, in the empire days you had less deaths with the first line because everyone ran into everyone and pretty much bunched up and than go back a bit and than bunch up again.

The civil war and gun powder days people stood or kneeled making them easy targets. this being the very bare bones and tactical people can spend all day explaining it better.

but to be impressed there were a lot of deaths in that time, hardly, up until the 1960s the big family was seen as a necessatiy because not everyone made it and to ensure your family line, you had a lot of kids.

thank god for penicillian.

 

[Doomsday101]

Civil War Medical Statistics

chance of dying: about one in four

For the Union Army:

-1 out of approximately 65 men were killed in action

-1 of 56 died from wounds

-1 of 13.5 died of disease

-1 of 10 was wounded in action

-1 of 15 was captured or reported missing

-1 of 7 captured died in prison

Case Death Rate for Union and Confederates

Disease

"Continued Fevers" C- 33.27% U-22.28%

"Malarial Fevers" C-1.15 U-0.95

"Eruptive Diseases" C- 5.12% U-5.27%

"Intestinal Complaints" C-1.48% U-1.25%

"Pulmonary Diseases" C-18.89% U-2.34%

http://ehistory.osu.edu/uscw/features/medicine/cwsurgeon/statistics.cfm

 

[DallasCowpoke]

American Experience-Death and the Civil War

Premieres Sept 18, 8/7c. With the coming of the Civil War, and the staggering casualties it ushered in, death entered the experience of the American people as it never had before -- permanently altering the character of the republic and the psyche of the American people. Contending with death on an unprecedented scale posed challenges for which there were no ready answers when the war began. Americans worked to improvise new solutions, new institutions, and new ways of coping with death on an unimaginable scale.

 

[burmafrd]

American Experience-Death and the Civil War

Premieres Sept 18, 8/7c. With the coming of the Civil War, and the staggering casualties it ushered in, death entered the experience of the American people as it never had before -- permanently altering the character of the republic and the psyche of the American people. Contending with death on an unprecedented scale posed challenges for which there were no ready answers when the war began. Americans worked to improvise new solutions, new institutions, and new ways of coping with death on an unimaginable scale.

wish I had remembered to record it. The brother of Ken Burns helped with this.

Mass deaths in a short period of time was not something that anyone really had any experience with.

But much worse was the thousands of wounded. You can bury the dead fairly quickly and then deal with the aftermath. With wounded that changes.