2011 Packers (15-1) had the worst defense

[Doomsday101]

Turnovers have a value if points are being scored off turnovers same hold true from defense side. If you have a great defense and they can prevent any points off the mistake of the offense then they greatly reduce the damage of the offensive mistake. If defense can create a turnover and yet you are unable to score the turnover only had minimal help that is one reason during game they show points off of turnovers.

 

[xwalker]

I was just playing.

I think the likelihood of Dallas ending up No. 1 in turnovers isn't that high and I'm not even sure the likelihood that the defense will be better than last year is that high, but there could be some surprises on that side of the ball that allow the defense to do just enough to allow the offense to get another win or two out of the season, which likely would be enough to make the playoffs.

I'm not sure Dallas has a chance to do much in the playoffs, though, unless Dallas makes a big leap forward on defense (which is impossible to predict) or the offense proves virtually unstoppable (which it hasn't to this point).

What is interesting is that the Cowboys were 14th in yardage allowed in 2012 but last 29th in takeaways as compared to 32nd and 8th in 2013. That's a big improvement on the takeaways.

 

[xwalker]

Turnovers have a value if points are being scored off turnovers same hold true from defense side. If you have a great defense and they can prevent any points off the mistake of the offense then they greatly reduce the damage of the offensive mistake. If defense can create a turnover and yet you are unable to score the turnover only had minimal help that is one reason during game they show points off of turnovers.

Turnovers still have a significant value even if it does not result in a score.

If your defense got a turnover each time they were on the field, but you only got a score 20% of the time, you still win because the other team is not scoring.

 

[Doomsday101]

Turnovers still have a significant value even if it does not result in a score.

If your defense got a turnover each time they were on the field, but you only got a score 20% of the time, you still win because the other team is not scoring.

It does have some value, however if you get 0 points off turnovers then your defense just bailed out the offense and outside of a few min lost you still have not give up points. If I turn the ball over 3 times and defense limits it to 3 points those turnovers are a lot less costly. Points win games plan and simple and that is the reason that not always does the team who got more turnover wins. Don't take as I am dismissing turnovers altogether I'm not but it is points off turnovers or points prevented from turnovers that have the bigger impact.

 

[CCBoy]

I read somewhere that total yards given up by a defense isn't necessarily correlated with number of wins (that 1000 page Romo stats thread I think?)

I see you benefited through the actual topical information despite the number of pages. Topic developments still apply.

 

[CCBoy]

It does have some value, however if you get 0 points off turnovers then your defense just bailed out the offense and outside of a few min lost you still have not give up points. If I turn the ball over 3 times and defense limits it to 3 points those turnovers are a lot less costly. Points win games plan and simple and that is the reason that not always does the team who got more turnover wins. Don't take as I am dismissing turnovers altogether I'm not but it is points off turnovers or points prevented from turnovers that have the bigger impact.

For a Bill Parcells managed game, turn-overs was one of four overriding principals to be controlled and trained for.

 

[Doomsday101]

For a Bill Parcells managed game, turn-overs was one of four overriding principals to be controlled and trained for.

again I think turnovers are important, however a turnover and no points off the turnover is not going to win a lot of games. This game is still about points. There is no points given for things like yardage, there are no points given for time of possession. FG give you 3 and TD with extra points give you 7 and that is what is posted on the board. Getting turnovers does take possession away from the opposing team and give you the opportunity to capitalize off the turnover if you don't get points off of it then it really only helped you a little

 

[CCBoy]

again I think turnovers are important, however a turnover and no points off the turnover is not going to win a lot of games. This game is still about points. There is no points given for things like yardage, there are no points given for time of possession. FG give you 3 and TD with extra points give you 7 and that is what is posted on the board. Getting turnovers does take possession away from the opposing team and give you the opportunity to capitalize off the turnover if you don't get points off of it then it really only helped you a little

Turn overs additionally affects another of the four dominating principals by Bill Parcells: field position.

 

[Doomsday101]

Turn overs additionally affects another of the four dominating principals by Bill Parcells: field position.

Yes that is true but again no one gets points off field position you still have to score. I agree TO mean something but you got to score off of them or defensively you got to stop the other team from scoring because of an offensive mistake. I have seen games where one team wins the stats battle but lose the game and in the end that is what it is all about winning the game. Yardage, time of possession, field position and turnovers all can play big factors but in the end did you put the ball over the goal line and put 7 on the board or even 3? If you didn't then those stats mean very little.

 

[Doomsday101]

may sound obvious but the 2 biggest stats in a game are points scored and points allowed. How you went about achiving that can vary and sometimes the team who put up the best stats does not win the game but 100% of the time if you score more points than you gave up you win the game. Never once has that stat lied. lol

 

[CCBoy]

Yes that is true but again no one gets points off field position you still have to score. I agree TO mean something but you got to score off of them or defensively you got to stop the other team from scoring because of an offensive mistake. I have seen games where one team wins the stats battle but lose the game and in the end that is what it is all about winning the game. Yardage, time of possession, field position and turnovers all can play big factors but in the end did you put the ball over the goal line and put 7 on the board or even 3? If you didn't then those stats mean very little.

You have a point of applied relevance...but on a generalization view, and hence game changing tendencies...give this fan turn-overs. Any time, any place. Those affect production percentages of an opponent as well.

Would one then ask the Pope if he was indeed Catholic...with a highly investigated and publicly attacked ownership of it's own Bank?

Yea, principals matter...in football, and in real life.

 

[dstovall5]

Give us the 2011 Packers defense last year, and Dallas would've walked into the playoffs easily. Both defenses were about the same in yards given up, but the Packers were a lot better then us at creating turnovers and not allowing teams to score on them. Also the part you left out where their defense allowed 5 less PPG is pretty huge, and that's the main difference.

 

[xwalker]

It does have some value, however if you get 0 points off turnovers then your defense just bailed out the offense and outside of a few min lost you still have not give up points. If I turn the ball over 3 times and defense limits it to 3 points those turnovers are a lot less costly. Points win games plan and simple and that is the reason that not always does the team who got more turnover wins. Don't take as I am dismissing turnovers altogether I'm not but it is points off turnovers or points prevented from turnovers that have the bigger impact.

It's about probabilities. The more opportunities a given offense has to score, the higher the probability of that offense scoring.

Having said that, the bottom line is for the defense to not allow the other team to score. The other team can't score on any possession where they turn the ball over.

 

[Doomsday101]

You have a point of applied relevance...but on a generalization view, and hence game changing tendencies...give this fan turn-overs. Any time, any place. Those affect production percentages of an opponent as well.

Would one then ask the Pope if he was indeed Catholic...with a highly investigated and publicly attacked ownership of it's own Bank?

Yea, principals matter...in football, and in real life.

I want turnovers why because we have a chance to score off of that turnover, and I want defense to be able to stop the other team when our offense makes a mistake and turns it over or at least limit it to 3 if the opposing team is already in FG range when they get the ball. Again many things can help you win but you still have to put the ball over the goal line and if you fail even once you get the turnover it is a missed oppertunity. No one wins because you got a turnover but did not score off of it. It is pretty simple, principal or not. There is a way things should go and then there is the way it is. My stats as I said is 100% while winning the turnover battle does lead to higher precentage of winning it is not 100% just the facts mama. lol

 

[jday]

Yes, it's odd that yardage is the measurement for ranking defenses. Obviously, each turnover offsets some amount of yardage given up.

I would rank defenses by some combination of points allowed and turnovers. I don't really care about yardage.

Agreed. Turnovers and point allowed are by far a much bigger indication of a defenses overall effectiveness than yards allowed.

 

[jazzcat22]

Obviously not.

I'm sure that a defense ranked 8th that is also 8th in turnovers is better than a defense ranked 32nd that is 1st in turnovers.

I don't know what the formula would be, but obviously, ranking the 2011 Packers defense as 32nd base solely on yardage was probably not an accurate ranking of their actual effectiveness.

Also depends on how many times they were ahead by only 1 score to win or lose. If they game was in hand, they didn't need to defend a game winning drive.

 

[Doomsday101]

It's about probabilities. The more opportunities a given offense has to score, the higher the probability of that offense scoring.

Having said that, the bottom line is for the defense to not allow the other team to score. The other team can't score on any possession where they turn the ball over.

Yes it helps probablity but as I mentioned below odds increase with turnover but it is not the turnover by itself it is the points accumlated off the turnover. Defensively again your right you take the ball away on a posession you take away the scoring oppertunity for that poesession however our defense did that and still gave up an avg of 27 points a game. We did pretty good about winning turnover battle and offense did not turn the ball over much but the end result was 8-8 the stats has meaning but it is not the be all, you have to do something with the turnover and defensive you got the stop the other team when you turn the ball over.

 

[CCBoy]

In history, parody was often used to highlight an observed and apparent difference that was being chained to a social use or fear. Don Quixote was a Classic Spanish item in their literature, as was Shakespeare to the English literature. It expands the direct association to achieve the view being dissected.

A single score is not the objective sought by any coach, but reinforceable habits and levels of play that are imprinted upon his players. Over a season, the big four promulgated by Bill Parcells still apply and are rewarded:

Dominate:

Turn-overs
Time of possessions
Field positions
Score

A Parcell's player was a convenience of his own...but he believed in picking up good linebackers when and wherever he could.

 

[KJJ]

What saved the Packers that year was Rodgers having an MVP season with over 4600 yards passing, 45 TD's and only 6 int's. He set an NFL record in 2011 with a 122.5 passer rating. Rodgers carried that team he had 2 off games all year and the Packers lost both to KC during the regular season and to the Giants in the playoffs. The loss to the Giants in the playoffs was the only game in which Rodgers didn't have more TD's than turnovers. The Packers averaged 35 points a game and had 5 games of over 40 points which forced opponents to have to put it up and take chances. This helped the Packers D set a record with 31 int's. Their D gave up a lot of yards but opposing offenses only averaged 22 points per game.

 

[perrykemp]

Cowboys 2013 415.3 yards/game
Packers 2011 411.6 yards/game

Interesting those numbers are close. My guess some if it can be attributed to the fact the Packers absolutely blew people out early and then sat on leads and stopped accumulating big offensive yard stats whereas the Cowboys were constantly playing catch-up and had opportunities to run up big yardage totals.

At the end of the day, I'm not sure the yardage matters that much -- at least not compared to scoring (obviously).