2012 really hurt us

[ShiningStar]

Actually, I believe in today's NFL with its watered down talent, it has become more and more of a crap shoot.
Look no further than Baltimore though. That franchise has had solid drafts after solid drafts. Ozzie Newsome has done an excellent job there. Some seasons have been better than others, but they do have a couple of Super Bowls.
The Cowboys are setting themselves up on a similar path.

i hope they do, but i see it as "every year every team has a chance regardless" and to me thats not fair. Yes, money will always make a difference, but sometimes that doesnt help because like the Giants shown, sometimes you catch lighting in a bottle and just cant be stopped. Buffalo whos not a big market, 4 times to the SB. Things like that happened. In this age, todays losers are tomorrows winner with a few tweaks.

I see your point, i really can. Ty for a good chat as well

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I find that most fans (not just Cowboys fans) often dismiss UDFA's more often than not and the Cowboys have probably had as good of success with them as any team in the NFL. So they harp on the Claiborne pick and forget about getting Leary and Beasley. Leary is a very good starting left guard that gets overshadowed by Tyron, Frederick and Martin and even now a little bit by Collins given Collins' situation and his play so far. Beasley has been an incredibly efficient slot receiver who gets overshadowed by Dez, Witten, Romo and last year...DeMarco.

What hurt the Cowboys was the hiring of Rob Ryan. I still don't think Ryan is a bad D-Coordinator. If I had a problem with him it was usually the issue with getting subs in as he struggles to manage that correctly and guys come in late. It's not the end of the world, but it's an issue he has and he's gotten better with it at New Orleans. I also didn't like some of the schemes he designed, like the one where he would give a wide open slant to the Z-receiver and try to have Sensabaugh fake a blitz and then try and sprint back into the passing lane. That play never works and it appears he's given up on it in New Orleans.

Anyway, I started to be all for the Kiffin style scheme (or the Marinelli scheme) when Garrett mentioned the problems with injuries in the NFL with the new CBA and how you needed to more plug in and play guys and you can't do that with being a very heavy scheme based defense. Claiborne looked pretty good his rookie season, but Carr didn't do much because he had to play safety with all of the injuries we had.

IIRC, cornerbacks have traditionally been the most injury prone position in the NFL over the years.

Makes sense if you think about it.

A lot of running like WR's do, so you can get hamstring issues. A lot of cutting so you can get ACL tears. And they have to tackle and if you can't tackle, opposing offenses are just going to move the ball carriers towards your direction more and more and force you to tackle.

So, if you're spending a lot of money at CB, there's a good chance you'll waste some of it due to injuries. And if you're playing man-to-man press coverage, you'll need more talent for that. With more zone schemes, you can protect weak corners more if they are reasonably competent in zone coverage and can tackle. Especially if you have 2 good safeties (which we don't have).

When we switched to the 4-3 that caused for a period of adjustment and any time you have to focus your resources towards something, there's always a good chance other things will suffer.

I think we are just starting to hit our stride. Even if we don't make the playoffs this season, I think the organization has the main key part in place...a HC that is good at developing talent with assistants and coordinators that are good at developing talent. And the HC seems to be the type that if he thinks an assistant is not pulling their weight in terms of developing talent, he'll get rid of that assistant and find one he likes.

And we are much more conscious about what players we give out extensions to and for how much. As we should be. Being a star in Dallas is worth more than being a star than probably any other city in the country for football (NY is bigger, but you have to contend with the Yankees, Mets, Rangers, Nets and Knicks). A player might make $10 million less over 5 years, but between endorsements of being in the spotlight in Dallas, they'll probably make more (and there's no state income tax).

The only issue now is finding that QB to take over when Romo retires.




YR

 

[ShiningStar]

I find that most fans (not just Cowboys fans) often dismiss UDFA's more often than not and the Cowboys have probably had as good of success with them as any team in the NFL. So they harp on the Claiborne pick and forget about getting Leary and Beasley. Leary is a very good starting left guard that gets overshadowed by Tyron, Frederick and Martin and even now a little bit by Collins given Collins' situation and his play so far. Beasley has been an incredibly efficient slot receiver who gets overshadowed by Dez, Witten, Romo and last year...DeMarco.

What hurt the Cowboys was the hiring of Rob Ryan. I still don't think Ryan is a bad D-Coordinator. If I had a problem with him it was usually the issue with getting subs in as he struggles to manage that correctly and guys come in late. It's not the end of the world, but it's an issue he has and he's gotten better with it at New Orleans. I also didn't like some of the schemes he designed, like the one where he would give a wide open slant to the Z-receiver and try to have Sensabaugh fake a blitz and then try and sprint back into the passing lane. That play never works and it appears he's given up on it in New Orleans.

Anyway, I started to be all for the Kiffin style scheme (or the Marinelli scheme) when Garrett mentioned the problems with injuries in the NFL with the new CBA and how you needed to more plug in and play guys and you can't do that with being a very heavy scheme based defense. Claiborne looked pretty good his rookie season, but Carr didn't do much because he had to play safety with all of the injuries we had.

IIRC, cornerbacks have traditionally been the most injury prone position in the NFL over the years.

Makes sense if you think about it.

A lot of running like WR's do, so you can get hamstring issues. A lot of cutting so you can get ACL tears. And they have to tackle and if you can't tackle, opposing offenses are just going to move the ball carriers towards your direction more and more and force you to tackle.

So, if you're spending a lot of money at CB, there's a good chance you'll waste some of it due to injuries. And if you're playing man-to-man press coverage, you'll need more talent for that. With more zone schemes, you can protect weak corners more if they are reasonably competent in zone coverage and can tackle. Especially if you have 2 good safeties (which we don't have).

When we switched to the 4-3 that caused for a period of adjustment and any time you have to focus your resources towards something, there's always a good chance other things will suffer.

I think we are just starting to hit our stride. Even if we don't make the playoffs this season, I think the organization has the main key part in place...a HC that is good at developing talent with assistants and coordinators that are good at developing talent. And the HC seems to be the type that if he thinks an assistant is not pulling their weight in terms of developing talent, he'll get rid of that assistant and find one he likes.

And we are much more conscious about what players we give out extensions to and for how much. As we should be. Being a star in Dallas is worth more than being a star than probably any other city in the country for football (NY is bigger, but you have to contend with the Yankees, Mets, Rangers, Nets and Knicks). A player might make $10 million less over 5 years, but between endorsements of being in the spotlight in Dallas, they'll probably make more (and there's no state income tax).

The only issue now is finding that QB to take over when Romo retires.




YR

If we dont make the playoffs, Garrett should have to answer for that, barring injuries. No, i wont stand for it, 1 good season and 4 bad, no. Most injuries are acceptable, but i wont excuse Romos. If Romo is injured that still lies at Garretts feet. Sorry, Garrett has gotten excuse after excuse after excuse, draw teh freaking line somewhere.

 

[KJJ]

In other words you know you were wrong and you have conceded. Thanks.

If I'm wrong then explain how losing your MVP from last season who was the top rusher in the league that you rode to the playoffs and your top corner aren't huge deals?

 

[big dog cowboy]

The reversed call didn't cost the Cowboys the game it was their inability to pressure a limping Aaron Rodgers

There were several big plays that cost the Cowboys in that game. The reversed call was one and not pressuring Rodgers certainly contributed to it was well. But to put the loss on the defense isn't fair. After all there was the mess at the end of the first half that resulted in a missed FG, the Murray fumble...

 

[KJJ]

We may never know. If Dallas had the ball at the Green Bay 1 we might have killed some time off the clock before running it in for a TD. That would give Green Bay about 2 minutes left at their own 20. Sure it still doesn't prove we can stop them. But it would have been a little harder for Green Bay to march down the field.

I doubt very seriously the Cowboys would have attempted to burn off time at the one yard line had Dez's play stood up because they would have had to take at least a yard loss to do that and may never had been able to punch the ball in. You can't waste downs or take a negative play when you have an opportunity to score and take the lead in that situation with that amount of time left. Besides the Cowboys would have never been able to burn off enough time sitting at the one yard line to where The Packers wouldn't have had enough time to answer. Romo played an excellent game but he made a poor decision to throw a 50-50 jump ball to Dez with over 4 minutes to play with the Cowboys facing a manageable 4th and 2.

You don't throw a jump ball on 4th down unless you're facing a 4th and long with under a minute to play. Romo should have chose a high percentage play to Witten or Beasley to pick up the first down allowing the Cowboys to work on the clock by running Murray and forcing the Packers to use their time outs. The closer the Cowboys got to the endzone would have opened up a fade opportunity to Dez in the corner which would have been very difficult to defend in that situation. Had the Cowboys done that the Packers would have had little time to answer back.

 

[KJJ]

There were several big plays that cost the Cowboys in that game. The reversed call was one and not pressuring Rodgers certainly contributed to it was well. But to put the loss on the defense isn't fair. After all there was the mess at the end of the first half that resulted in a missed FG, the Murray fumble...

The loss wasn't "entirely" on the defense but had the Cowboys had a pass rush that day and didn't miss so many tackles they would have won the game because Rodgers was limping around and wasn't close to 100%. The screwed up FG attempt prior to the half that resulted in a penalty and blocked attempt was costly but the defense had an opportunity to stop Green Bay with only 29 seconds left in the half but allowed the Packers to move from their own 40 to the Cowboys 27 enabling them to steal 3 points at intermission. That sequence got Rodgers on track and he began to heat up in the second half. In the 3rd quarter Rodgers completed a pass to Adams and a missed tackle resulted in a 46 yard TD. The defense was dreadful and Jerry and Stephen pointed to the poor defensive effort vs the Packers as the reason for going after Hardy in free agency and the Cowboys using their top 2 picks in the draft on defense.

Offensively the Cowboys did enough to beat the Packers Romo was very efficient completing almost 79% of his passes with a 143.6 passer rating and no turnovers. Although Murray had a costly fumble he put 123 yards, a TD and averaged 4.9 a carry. It wasn't perfect offensively but the Cowboys did enough to win had the defense pressured Rodgers and not missed so many tackles. Even after Dez's catch was reversed the defense had just over 4 minutes to stop Rodgers to get the ball back for one last opportunity and couldn't stop him. You're not going to win a playoff game especially against an elite QB with no pass rush.

 

[jaybird]

Let's get the obvious out of the way.

Morris Claiborne obviously hasn't lived up to our draft investment, and 2012 wasn't a great draft for us.

I've already talked about how the ability to put together a winning team under this current cap rule basically gives you 4 year windows.

Well 2012 is an interesting window for us.

I think next year we will be hands down the best team in the nfl, but the question is, will 2012's draft class hold us down this year?

I'm not sure, but I think potentially we could see the best Claiborne we've ever seen. I think we will see a very dominant Tyrone Crawford. I think Wilber may start at strong side linebacker at least initially. I'm not sure what we will see from James Hanna going forward though. Especially with Swaim coming along. I think when you throw in Ron Leary and Cole Beasley, that 2012 group actually doesn't look that bad at all.[/quote

When the trade was made, I thought it was a good value trade for us. We only gave up a 2nd to move up to select the (supposedly)the best defensive player. If was any where near as good as P Peterson it would have been a great value deal. We know how it turned out, but the final chapter of Mo hasn't been written yet. Here's hoping he can be the CB he was suppose to be.

 

[Galian Beast]

If I'm wrong then explain how losing your MVP from last season who was the top rusher in the league that you rode to the playoffs and your top corner aren't huge deals?

I think I've already done that.

First Murray wasn't the team MVP last year as evidenced by the Arizona game. Second it is a completely different team this year from last year and that is how you need to look at it. Murray was originally on a rookie contract, and his value was amazing for it. At 8 million a year though, that changes drastically. For what you can do with the money to help your team in other areas, you can do a lot more, which is exactly what the team did.

It I asked you who you would want more between Hardy and Bryant or Murray, which would you say? It's about opportunity costs, and you don't seem to get that. The window closed on 2011 and it was a good window, but 2012 really hurt us last year too.

Why losing Scandrick isn't a huge deal is because you have depth at corner and you haven't put a high percentage of the salary cap towards Scandrick. If you lost Smith, Romo, Bryant on the other hand, it would be a huge deal.

 

[KJJ]

I think I've already done that.

First Murray wasn't the team MVP last year as evidenced by the Arizona game. Second it is a completely different team this year from last year and that is how you need to look at it. Murray was originally on a rookie contract, and his value was amazing for it. At 8 million a year though, that changes drastically. For what you can do with the money to help your team in other areas, you can do a lot more, which is exactly what the team did.

It I asked you who you would want more between Hardy and Bryant or Murray, which would you say? It's about opportunity costs, and you don't seem to get that. The window closed on 2011 and it was a good window, but 2012 really hurt us last year too.

Why losing Scandrick isn't a huge deal is because you have depth at corner and you haven't put a high percentage of the salary cap towards Scandrick. If you lost Smith, Romo, Bryant on the other hand, it would be a huge deal.

You're basing the AZ game on Murray not being the Cowboys MVP last season? LOL The Cowboys were stuck with Weeden at QB for that game and even had Romo played the Cowboys likely would have lost anyway because the OL was having issues dealing with the blitz as we saw the week prior vs Washington. No team in the league was more blitz happy than AZ last season. Romo was sacked 5 times against Washington which led to his injury and unavailability for the AZ game. The Cowboys may have lost him for the season had he played vs AZ. The efficient season Romo had was all due to Murray and the running game. As for who would I pick between Hardy, Dez and Murray I would pick Dez hands down. He's an elite receiver who demands a lot of attention and you can't make up for what he provides. Scandrick is a huge loss for the Cowboys and it's laughable to think otherwise. It's typical of FANS on this board to make light of losing a key player.

The defense is what ultimately knocked the Cowboys out of the playoffs so they can't afford to lose their top corner. It doesn't matter what percentage of the salary cap goes towards Scandrick he's the Cowboys best corner who didn't give up a single TD pass while he was the primary corner in coverage last season. As for the CB depth it's up in the air with Mo and Jones is a rookie who most think would make a better safety. He'll have his share of growing pains this season with the receivers and QB's he'll be facing. Patmon is entering his second year and is inexperienced. Losing Scandrick's experience and coverage ability is going to be hard to replace. Not having him is going to make it difficult matching up with the Giants and their speed receivers. It's ridiculous to say losing Scandrick isn't a big deal. .

 

[xwalker]

I find that most fans (not just Cowboys fans) often dismiss UDFA's more often than not and the Cowboys have probably had as good of success with them as any team in the NFL. So they harp on the Claiborne pick and forget about getting Leary and Beasley. Leary is a very good starting left guard that gets overshadowed by Tyron, Frederick and Martin and even now a little bit by Collins given Collins' situation and his play so far. Beasley has been an incredibly efficient slot receiver who gets overshadowed by Dez, Witten, Romo and last year...DeMarco.

What hurt the Cowboys was the hiring of Rob Ryan. I still don't think Ryan is a bad D-Coordinator. If I had a problem with him it was usually the issue with getting subs in as he struggles to manage that correctly and guys come in late. It's not the end of the world, but it's an issue he has and he's gotten better with it at New Orleans. I also didn't like some of the schemes he designed, like the one where he would give a wide open slant to the Z-receiver and try to have Sensabaugh fake a blitz and then try and sprint back into the passing lane. That play never works and it appears he's given up on it in New Orleans.

Anyway, I started to be all for the Kiffin style scheme (or the Marinelli scheme) when Garrett mentioned the problems with injuries in the NFL with the new CBA and how you needed to more plug in and play guys and you can't do that with being a very heavy scheme based defense. Claiborne looked pretty good his rookie season, but Carr didn't do much because he had to play safety with all of the injuries we had.

IIRC, cornerbacks have traditionally been the most injury prone position in the NFL over the years.

Makes sense if you think about it.

A lot of running like WR's do, so you can get hamstring issues. A lot of cutting so you can get ACL tears. And they have to tackle and if you can't tackle, opposing offenses are just going to move the ball carriers towards your direction more and more and force you to tackle.

So, if you're spending a lot of money at CB, there's a good chance you'll waste some of it due to injuries. And if you're playing man-to-man press coverage, you'll need more talent for that. With more zone schemes, you can protect weak corners more if they are reasonably competent in zone coverage and can tackle. Especially if you have 2 good safeties (which we don't have).

When we switched to the 4-3 that caused for a period of adjustment and any time you have to focus your resources towards something, there's always a good chance other things will suffer.

I think we are just starting to hit our stride. Even if we don't make the playoffs this season, I think the organization has the main key part in place...a HC that is good at developing talent with assistants and coordinators that are good at developing talent. And the HC seems to be the type that if he thinks an assistant is not pulling their weight in terms of developing talent, he'll get rid of that assistant and find one he likes.

And we are much more conscious about what players we give out extensions to and for how much. As we should be. Being a star in Dallas is worth more than being a star than probably any other city in the country for football (NY is bigger, but you have to contend with the Yankees, Mets, Rangers, Nets and Knicks). A player might make $10 million less over 5 years, but between endorsements of being in the spotlight in Dallas, they'll probably make more (and there's no state income tax).

The only issue now is finding that QB to take over when Romo retires.

YR

In regards to Rob Ryan.
If he has a defense full of savvy veterans, then his defense can work; however, the modern NFL rarely allows for a defense full of quality veterans. He has too many complicated schemes and it's difficult for players to learn them and definitely difficult for them to master the scheme. Confusion is often the death knell for a defense.

In Dallas Rob Ryan had DeMarcus Ware in a read and react mode instead of an all of pass rush. Marinell is the opposite. He has the DL focused on rushing and schemes to have the LBs clean up when the DL does not stop the run.

Marinelli is focused on teaching the fundamentals and keeping the scheme relatively simple. This works better in the modern NFL with young players being a big part of the games.

Ryan is focuses on himself and trying to out scheme the opponent. Once he is gone, the defense has to start from ground zero because he didn't focus on fundamentals that would carry over to the next D-Coordinator.

 

[xwalker]

If I'm wrong then explain how losing your MVP from last season who was the top rusher in the league that you rode to the playoffs and your top corner aren't huge deals?

During/after that game if someone told me the Cowboys could trade Murray for 2 super talented pass rushers, I would be ALL-IN. It is much more difficult to find quality pass rushers than it is to find decent RBs. The Cowboys added 2 super talented pass rushers Hardy and Gregory and have developed DLaw to the point some TC observers give the award for most outstanding player to Lawrence.

Losing Scandrick is definitely not good but they didn't draft a CB in the 1st round and that player has received rave reviews in training camp. Also, one of top surprise players of the preseason was the CB White. They also have the one time 6th overall pick as the 5th CB (They will call Claiborne a starter now with Scandrick out to boost his confidence, but in reality he can be considered the 5th CB).

 

[texbumthelife]

I find that most fans (not just Cowboys fans) often dismiss UDFA's more often than not and the Cowboys have probably had as good of success with them as any team in the NFL. So they harp on the Claiborne pick and forget about getting Leary and Beasley. Leary is a very good starting left guard that gets overshadowed by Tyron, Frederick and Martin and even now a little bit by Collins given Collins' situation and his play so far. Beasley has been an incredibly efficient slot receiver who gets overshadowed by Dez, Witten, Romo and last year...DeMarco.

What hurt the Cowboys was the hiring of Rob Ryan. I still don't think Ryan is a bad D-Coordinator. If I had a problem with him it was usually the issue with getting subs in as he struggles to manage that correctly and guys come in late. It's not the end of the world, but it's an issue he has and he's gotten better with it at New Orleans. I also didn't like some of the schemes he designed, like the one where he would give a wide open slant to the Z-receiver and try to have Sensabaugh fake a blitz and then try and sprint back into the passing lane. That play never works and it appears he's given up on it in New Orleans.

Anyway, I started to be all for the Kiffin style scheme (or the Marinelli scheme) when Garrett mentioned the problems with injuries in the NFL with the new CBA and how you needed to more plug in and play guys and you can't do that with being a very heavy scheme based defense. Claiborne looked pretty good his rookie season, but Carr didn't do much because he had to play safety with all of the injuries we had.

IIRC, cornerbacks have traditionally been the most injury prone position in the NFL over the years.

Makes sense if you think about it.

A lot of running like WR's do, so you can get hamstring issues. A lot of cutting so you can get ACL tears. And they have to tackle and if you can't tackle, opposing offenses are just going to move the ball carriers towards your direction more and more and force you to tackle.

So, if you're spending a lot of money at CB, there's a good chance you'll waste some of it due to injuries. And if you're playing man-to-man press coverage, you'll need more talent for that. With more zone schemes, you can protect weak corners more if they are reasonably competent in zone coverage and can tackle. Especially if you have 2 good safeties (which we don't have).

When we switched to the 4-3 that caused for a period of adjustment and any time you have to focus your resources towards something, there's always a good chance other things will suffer.

I think we are just starting to hit our stride. Even if we don't make the playoffs this season, I think the organization has the main key part in place...a HC that is good at developing talent with assistants and coordinators that are good at developing talent. And the HC seems to be the type that if he thinks an assistant is not pulling their weight in terms of developing talent, he'll get rid of that assistant and find one he likes.

And we are much more conscious about what players we give out extensions to and for how much. As we should be. Being a star in Dallas is worth more than being a star than probably any other city in the country for football (NY is bigger, but you have to contend with the Yankees, Mets, Rangers, Nets and Knicks). A player might make $10 million less over 5 years, but between endorsements of being in the spotlight in Dallas, they'll probably make more (and there's no state income tax).

The only issue now is finding that QB to take over when Romo retires.




YR

Good post. I agree with you about Ryan. I think a lot of the time he knows what he wants to do and how to do it, but the terminology and schemes in his system are apparently super complex and I think that bogs him and the players down. A lot of our players and players from other teams he has coached have complained about how sophisticated the schemes are at times. I think that's the biggest reason why you saw Jerry go after someone like Kiffin, who has an admittedly very simple scheme. Luckily, we wound up with Marinelli who is somewhere in the middle but much better at managing players than either Ryan or Kiffin were. We also now have a head coach not bogged down with play calling, who is on top of defensive personnel too.

 

[Manster68]

Good post. I agree with you about Ryan. I think a lot of the time he knows what he wants to do and how to do it, but the terminology and schemes in his system are apparently super complex and I think that bogs him and the players down. A lot of our players and players from other teams he has coached have complained about how sophisticated the schemes are at times. I think that's the biggest reason why you saw Jerry go after someone like Kiffin, who has an admittedly very simple scheme. Luckily, we wound up with Marinelli who is somewhere in the middle but much better at managing players than either Ryan or Kiffin were. We also now have a head coach not bogged down with play calling, who is on top of defensive personnel too.

I am not quite as critical concerning Ryan and Kiffin as others are. The years they were there in 2012 and 2013 Dallas had 60 different players playing on defense in those two seasons. I don't care who you are, that is a tough mountain to climb. It is tough getting continuity with the players - let alone taking players off the scrap heap.

 

[texbumthelife]

I am not quite as critical concerning Ryan and Kiffin as others are. The years they were there in 2012 and 2013 Dallas had 60 different players playing on defense in those two seasons. I don't care who you are, that is a tough mountain to climb. It is tough getting continuity with the players - let alone taking players off the scrap heap.

Oh, I completely agree with that, too. I was talking purely schematically.

 

[keds]

Unless I ommitted someone, my research shows that 2012 produced a total of 8 drafted/undrafted rookies that are still on our roster...

Crawford is showing 1st/2nd round production
Beasley is one of the best slot receivers in the NFL and if there were a redraft, he would probably have been picked in the middle to lower middle rounds
Leary would probably be a middle round pick in a redraft
Wilbur is playing up to his draft position as a middle round draft pick...
Hanna has been productive for his draft position...
Dunbar is an effective role player that has potential, good pick-up as a rookie free agent
Caliborne has every opportunity this season, if healthy, to produce at a higher level and bring up the grade for this draft class
Chris Jones has been good enough to hold onto the punter job, good free agent pick up

 

[keds]

If this season Mo Claiborne joins the CB rotation and is not a liability... I think you can safely give this rookie drafted/undrafted class a solid "B" grade...