3-4 or 4-3, Which do you prefer?

[Yakuza Rich]

Verry good stuff.

Is it really easier to get personnel for the 3-4? Then why don't more and more teams go to that defense?

I believe so. More and more colleges are using offenses that spread the field and it's even funneling it's way down to the high school level. To counter that, defenses are getting more speed and sacrificing size to get that speed.

With the way the rules are set up in the NFL, it's difficult to really spread the offense out a lot and nearly impossible to use a spread option formation effectively. But you're still seeing a ton of good, but smaller defensive players in the college game that really don't translate well in the 4-3. But in the 3-4 you can take those good 4-3 college DE's and move them to OLB or even ILB. Then you can take those good 4-3 college DT's and move them to 3-4 DE.

The big issue in the 4-3 is finding a DE that fits a certain profile. Usually he has to have pretty good height because he'll need long arms, and good speed. He's going to have to weight at least 270 pounds to have enough size to take on offensive tackles. That's a pretty small window to find when you can go to the 3-4 and find more and more guys that are 6'4" 250 pounds, but can really rush the passer and fly around the field.


YAKUZA

 

[Chuck 54]

Great pass rushing 3-4 LB's....Merriman and Porter.

Great pass rushing 4-3 DE's....Peppers, Rice, Freeny, Kearse, etc.

I think it's easier to find 3-4 DE's because they don't have to be good pass rushers (I'm not sure I really admire that). But it's hard to find great NT's.

And I know it's hard to find great OLB's who are going to get huge sack numbers...there's a reason people are still looking for the next LT.

I'm not sure either defense is all that easy to put together all the pieces...I won't believe we have all the pieces together until someone starts putting constant pressure on the QB...the only guy is Ware. If you have to blitz, you're right where you were in a 4-3 without a stud DE.

Ellis was pretty consistant with pressure, but he was never going to be a huge sack guy with the players we've always put on the other side. I think a speed rusher like Ware would have really helped Ellis at the other DE.

We have not arrived as a defense yet....we still can't bring the heat.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Like Bill, I love backers, and I think they are the most exciting players on D. Love to see a kamikaze-style highly talented linebacker making the field his own - dropping into coverage, blitzing from different packages, sniffing out the run and stuffing it, and laterally exhibting his speed and strength.

It's a display of athleticism that greatly enhances my viewing....with the best attributes of the strong safety and the rushing DE..speed, agility, power. A pass rush is a pass rush, but I just think it's sexier coming from elite traditional backers, and 'tweeners', who these days are my favorite NFL players to watch.

However, nothing sucks worse than a mediocre 3-4 linebacker corps.

 

[Stautner]

When many of those 4-3 DEs who can't "hold their own against bigger OT's" can make the move to OLBs (assuming they have the speed).... then I say it's easier to fill 3-4 OLB than 4-3 DE.

There are a lot of DEs from college every year who are undersized for the NFL 4-3 DE.

You guys act as if size is the only factor - as if being an undersized DE automatically means you can be an outstanding 3-4 OLB. A 3-4 OLB has to be quicker and faster than a 4-3 DE, and has to be able to drop back in coverage.

I admit that I don't know or sure, but it seems that top quality 4-3 DE's (many on the small side) are as common as top pass rushing 3-4 OLB's in the NFL.

And it also seems that some of the quality 3-4 OLB's in the NFL could convert if the need arised and also be quality 4-3 DE's if they played in a different scheme - it doesn't ONLY work the other way around.

I understand your argument, but I just don't see that it is as black and white as some make it.

 

[Stautner]

Not necessarily. There are still only 1 or 2 premium 4-3 pass rushers that come out of every draft and they are snapped up quickly. Heck, Mario Williams went #1 this year.

Its simply a hard position to find, whether 26 teams are looking for them or 12.

How many premium pass rushing 3-4 OLB's come out of each draft - it's not like they are falling off trees.

Another point someone made is that it isn't easy to find NT's for the 3-4 ..... it's much easier to find 4-3 DT's, so in that case it is HARDER to find personnel for the 3-4.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I admit that I don't know or sure, but it seems that top quality 4-3 DE's (many on the small side) are as common as top pass rushing 3-4 OLB's in the NFL.

The conventional wisdom is the top flight 4-3 pass rushing de is the rarer commodity but perhaps someone could do a study on it...certainly the inability to get a consistent rush from the end is what led to Bill introduce the 3-4 here. (The Ogbogus and Wileys being what they were).

The pay scale usually indicates scarcity as well as value - and good DEs command higher salaries across the board than 3-4 OLBs.

The tweener phenomenon might be blurring those lines as well, tho.

 

[ZeroClub]

Sorry to sound like such a Mary Sunshine here, but I feel privileged to have seen the Cowboys do both.

I really enjoyed watching those years of Landry's Flex defense, Jimmy Johnson's quick ballhawking version of the 4-3, and now Parcells' 3-4. It has been great to be able to see the Cowboys play a variety of styles over the years.

It'll be a lot of fun watching Ware, Canty, Watkins, T-New, Roy, and the rest play in this 3-4...

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Exactly. It may be easier now only because the majority of teams play the 4-3. If more teams played the 3-4, then it would be easier to find the 4-3 DEs. It is just tough to find the players at the critical positions in general. QB, left tackle, RB, Pass rusher(DE or OLB) and CB are all spots that many teams have a tough time of filling.

Exactly. Those tweener 34 OLBs were easier for Pittsburgh to find when they were the only team looking for them. Now, with the Jets, Browns, and 49ers looking for them as well as 34 stalwarts like the Steelers and Patriots, they aren't so easy to find. If you think about it, only a couple of years ago we might have been the first 34 team in line to grab a guy like Wimbley. Now, that's not the case.

Truth is, until 2005 when we went to the 34, the only front seven player we'd drafted on the first day since 1999 was Willie Blade at the very bottom of the 3rd round. That's terrible. No wonder our 43 wasn't that great. We could be a really good 43 team right now if we'd decided to devote the resources to the position the same way we did when we decided to go to the 34 -- but we didn't.

And that's fine with me, as it's what Parcells knows and really wanted the whole time. But the Norsian idea that a "small undersized 4-3 cover-2" is somehow inferior is totally wrong (just look at Chicago)... It's all about the players.

 

[Stautner]

The conventional wisdom is the top flight 4-3 pass rushing de is the rarer commodity but perhaps someone could do a study on it...certainly the inability to get a consistent rush from the end is what led to Bill introduce the 3-4 here. (The Ogbogus and Wileys being what they were).

The pay scale usually indicates scarcity as well as value - and good DEs command higher salaries across the board than 3-4 OLBs.

The tweener phenomenon might be blurring those lines as well, tho.

I did a little research:

* Of the top 20 sack leaders last season (all with 9 sacks or more), 15 were DE's, one was a DT and 4 were LB's.

* The top pass rushing LB was 12th - just one spot ahead of the top DT.

* Of the 4 LB's on the list, 2 of them were 270+ pounds and therefore could have easily functioned as a 4-3 DE as well and are only OLB's because of the scheme the team uses.

Now, I realize of course, that part of the discrepency is that there are fewer 3-4 defenses, and I also realize that pass rushing isn't the only criteria for 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLB's, BUT this information does pretty clearly show that quality pass rushing DE's aren't as hard to find as some believe, and that impact 3-4 OLB's aren't as prominant as some believe.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I did a little research:

* Of the top 20 sack leaders last season (all with 9 sacks or more), 15 were DE's, one was a DT and 4 were LB's.

* The top pass rushing LB was 12th - just one spot ahead of the top DT.

* Of the 4 LB's on the list, 2 of them were 270+ pounds and therefore could have easily functioned as a 4-3 DE as well and are only OLB's because of the scheme the team uses.

Now, I realize of course, that part of the discrepency is that there are fewer 3-4 defenses, and I also realize that pass rushing isn't the only criteria for 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLB's, BUT this information does pretty clearly show that quality pass rushing DE's aren't as hard to find as some believe, and that impact 3-4 OLB's aren't as prominant as some believe.

as you said not a lot of teams run the 3-4 and many have switched recently. it makes sense to average out the numbers to arrive at better numbers.

now I bet you even billicheck or parcells would run the 4-3 if they had a strahan, freeny, rice or peppers. the problem is they don't.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I did a little research:

* Of the top 20 sack leaders last season (all with 9 sacks or more), 15 were DE's, one was a DT and 4 were LB's.

* The top pass rushing LB was 12th - just one spot ahead of the top DT.

* Of the 4 LB's on the list, 2 of them were 270+ pounds and therefore could have easily functioned as a 4-3 DE as well and are only OLB's because of the scheme the team uses.

Interesting, but not surprising.

Now, I realize of course, that part of the discrepency is that there are fewer 3-4 defenses, and I also realize that pass rushing isn't the only criteria, BUT this information does pretty clearly suggest that quality DE's aren't as rare as some believe, and that impact 3-4 OLB's aren't as prominant as some believe.

Fair enough. They're mostly rare when you just haven't been able to find, draft, or develop one.

The 3-4 was fated here, under Bill, even if it took 2 years before he went to it. There's his historical preference, (can blitz out of so many positions and packages, (but he still never wants to expose himself by having to rely on blitzes).

My only regrets about going 3-4 here was losing a player the quality of Glover, and I'll never be convinced that Dat's body was as banged up as made out to be until he comes out and details it.

 

[Da Hammer]

I love the 3-4 defense. it just gives you more options and if you have a great creative D coordinator then its easier to confuse the heck out of the offense. like the Steelers and Patriots, i hate them both but i love how they run their 3-4 defense and it helped them win SB's

 

[TheEnigma]

I prefer the college 5-2.

I'm gonna have to go with the 4-2-5

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I'm a 43 guy. Probably always will be but like many have already stated, it depends on your talent.

 

[dwmyers]

You know, Ray Lewis may be a self aggrandizing man at times, but he does understand defenses and in particular he understands the 4-3. The critical player in the 4-3 isn't the defensive end, it's the middle linebacker. And the critical function of the line is to keep the opposing offensive line off the middle linebacker, so he can make plays.

Think about it a moment: can you name both defensive ends on the Cowboys's first Super Bowl winning team? Can you name the middle linebacker? How about the defensive tackles?

I hate to be contrary, but it just makes sense to me. The 4-3 is built from the inside out. And the critical (DL) failure in drafting post Jimmy and pre Parcells on the line was the inability to replace Chad Hennings.

There is a tendency among Cowboys fans to get caught up in the freak that was Charles Haley and think that the 4-3 begins and ends with a Haley-esque end. And part of that is because when we were so hot for a 4-3 DE that could rush, we did a miserable job of drafting. Just, there was a time and day when we had this defensive end named George Andrie, and with him we did just fine.

As far as this coach (BP) goes, he likes the 3-4 but he plays both 3 and 4 man fronts. He's pretty agnostic in terms of doing what it takes to win football games.

David.

 

[joseephuss]

You know, Ray Lewis may be a self aggrandizing man at times, but he does understand defenses and in particular he understands the 4-3. The critical player in the 4-3 isn't the defensive end, it's the middle linebacker. And the critical function of the line is to keep the opposing offensive line off the middle linebacker, so he can make plays.

Think about it a moment: can you name both defensive ends on the Cowboys's first Super Bowl winning team? Can you name the middle linebacker? How about the defensive tackles?

I hate to be contrary, but it just makes sense to me. The 4-3 is built from the inside out. And the critical (DL) failure in drafting post Jimmy and pre Parcells on the line was the inability to replace Chad Hennings.

There is a tendency among Cowboys fans to get caught up in the freak that was Charles Haley and think that the 4-3 begins and ends with a Haley-esque end. And part of that is because when we were so hot for a 4-3 DE that could rush, we did a miserable job of drafting. Just, there was a time and day when we had this defensive end named George Andrie, and with him we did just fine.

As far as this coach (BP) goes, he likes the 3-4 but he plays both 3 and 4 man fronts. He's pretty agnostic in terms of doing what it takes to win football games.

David.

That was a good post except where you mentioned Chad Hennings. He was a good back up, but he wasn't the critical man on the interior of the line. Russell Maryland and Tony Casillas were the solid tackles with Leon Lett getting the limelight.

 

[peplaw06]

I did a little research:

* Of the top 20 sack leaders last season (all with 9 sacks or more), 15 were DE's, one was a DT and 4 were LB's.

* The top pass rushing LB was 12th - just one spot ahead of the top DT.

* Of the 4 LB's on the list, 2 of them were 270+ pounds and therefore could have easily functioned as a 4-3 DE as well and are only OLB's because of the scheme the team uses.

Now, I realize of course, that part of the discrepency is that there are fewer 3-4 defenses, and I also realize that pass rushing isn't the only criteria for 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLB's, BUT this information does pretty clearly show that quality pass rushing DE's aren't as hard to find as some believe, and that impact 3-4 OLB's aren't as prominant as some believe.

Aside from what you mentioned as part of the discrepancy -- that there are fewer 3-4 defenses -- another factor is that 4-3 DEs rush the passer on almost every passing down. It is much more common to see 3-4 OLBs drop into coverage.

Also, the OLBs who you say could easily convert to 4-3 DEs probably wouldn't be as effective. They're smaller and generally quicker, meaning they do better in space. As a 3-4 OLB, the odds are greater that a back will be stuck doing the blocking, especially if the Offense doesn't know from where the rush is coming. The 4-3 DE is basically stuck duking it out with an OT all day. Which brings you full circle. The versatility of the 3-4 if you can get the players who can rush from either OLB spot creates mismatches and gives you the advantage.

 

[Rush 2112]

I'd be curious to see where the D's those top 20 play on are ranked scoring wise, vs run.........

Are they good overall D's, average, mediocre........

Do they have talent next to them and across from them on the DL.....

 

[The30YardSlant]

I prefer the 4-4 defense myself

With the right personel, it is a dominating defense. When you can rush any combination of 8 guys at the LOS, the offense has no way of knowing what's coming. It's very easy to disguise blitzes, and it's damn near impossible to run against it.

The offense can think you're going to bring an all-out blitz, only to have 7 men drop into coverage once the ball is snapped. It's a defense more suited for college, when QBs are younger and have a harder time adjusting to coverage surprises, but I still love it.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

whatever works is what I take