3rd and 3 Decision Making in OT

[Aven8]

Just a simple Zone read would have worked.

 

[JohnsKey19]

I want to preface this by saying I am not as hyperbolically mad as some of y’all. We weren’t going 15-2, realistically with the parity of the NFL we were going to lose 2-3 more games this season.

Losing to a team who was literally playing for their season at home led by a HOF QB in OT is not some season-wrecking loss. In fact, if you don’t get sucked into the vaccume of GB playing poorly recently, this would be a game many marked as an L. Yes losing sucks, but if we win next week we are right back on track. We could easily go 12-5 again and with some quality wins vs Philly/Minny then all this is forgotten.

With that being said, if you know you are going to go for it on 4th down, why not run on 3rd and 3?? Makes absolutely zero sense to pass twice there when we averaged 5+ YPC. If you don’t outright get the first you, probably set up a 4th and much easier.

My biggest issue with Moore/McCarthy is that they just run plays without any sequencing. They don’t have a broader picture of how the plays should be strung together, it’s just a play for right here right now then deal with the next one when we get there. How the heck do you not run on 3rd if you’re going for it? That’s the most inexcusable play of the day for me.

Agree with you but I thought McCarthy made it clear he had no input on play calling during games. This to me is a KM problem.

 

[RonnieT24]

Agree with you but I thought McCarthy made it clear he had no input on play calling during games. This to me is a KM problem.

I doubt McCarthy has "no input." But I would assume that he does not know the playbook as well as the guy who has been in Dallas a good 6 years longer than he has. I have to assume that McCarthy does have the ability to whisper "Let's run it here" into the headset when he senses the need to. But on the failed 3rd down I come back to the simple fact that if the refs call the obvious PI on Alexander the drive continues and the Cowboys probably punch it in and win the game. Assuming the refs don't dedicate themselves to making sure Dallas leaves town a loser that is.

On the 4th down play I ALWAYS want to get Dak out of the pocket to allow him the option to run for the first down. I never like dropping back in a crucial situation when the other team KNOWS you're going to pass. I get that you needed to pass to make sure you got it past the sticks.. but roll Dak out.. bring a TE from the backside and flood the zone with receivers. Make the defense on that side decide to cover or come after Dak. Sitting him in the pocket made their lives way too easy.

 

[JohnsKey19]

I doubt McCarthy has "no input." But I would assume that he does not know the playbook as well as the guy who has been in Dallas a good 6 years longer than he has. I have to assume that McCarthy does have the ability to whisper "Let's run it here" into the headset when he senses the need to. But on the failed 3rd down I come back to the simple fact that if the refs call the obvious PI on Alexander the drive continues and the Cowboys probably punch it in and win the game. Assuming the refs don't dedicate themselves to making sure Dallas leaves town a loser that is.

Agree but I thought this very issue came up before and McCarthy made it a point to say he stays out of the way and lets Moore handle everything. This is how the whole "walk around coach" thing came up before with everyone questioning WTH he was actually doing on the sidelines.

 

[mahoneybill]

On the OT drive, it is shocking to me that Kellen and Mike didn't run on 3rd and 3 knowing they were going to go for it on 4th.

Your chance of getting 3 yards on two carries is very high, especially considering that the run game was actually very efficient yesterday (5.1 ypc). Even if you decide to throw on 4th and short if you do not get it, your playbook is much larger than what you are looking at on 4th and 3.

In that 3rd down situation you run the ball 99% of the time if you know that it is 4 down territory. At this point I think the only explanation is that Mike had not communicated it with the rest of the staff that they were going to go for it in a long field goal situation.

Kellen got cute and figured they would be looking run, so pass...... Result put yourself in a situation that you then decide you need to pass again....

 

[Bagman]

This has been a hallmark of Moore's offense since he took over.. and it was featured a lot when Garrett was in charge until 2014. It's because Garrett's approach to offense was very much paint by numbers.. He used formula sheets to determine what play works in what down and distance against what defensive looks. The Cowboys frequently automatically audible to certain passes when they get certain defensive looks. The problem with that philosophy is that every good DC in the league knows it.. So they manipulate them into running the plays THEY want them to run by showing certain looks pre-snap then dropping the coverage to the exact spot where they know the ball is going.

Moore has continued that tradition and philosophy. He, much like Garrett thinks players are chess pieces and that there is no difference between Noah Brown and Amari Cooper.. He also doesn't understand the difference gaining 5 yards on the ground vs 5 yards through the air makes on a defense. "Yards are yards.." Never mind the pounding the run game puts on the defense. Never mind that it keeps pass rushers from teeing off coming at your QB.. Never mind that if you continue to be successful doing it, you force them to give up a man in coverage to be the 8th man in the box. None of that seems to matter to him.. which is why he can't leave Dallas fast enough for me.. This formula offense will strafe sorry teams and put up fluffly numbers in the regular season, but it will never get us to the promised land.

RonnieT24 This is the BEST POST I've ever read on this site. You absolutely nailed the Garrett/Moore Syndrome that has plagued this offense since 2010. People have blamed Romo, Witten, Dak, Zeke or Cooper but the common denominator is this disgusting offensive design and philosophy. Every week I see teams with half our talent executing great game plans and regardless of personnel, we lay eggs. Moore needs to get put on the next train back to Boise. I want him gone.

 

[Bagman]

I doubt McCarthy has "no input." But I would assume that he does not know the playbook as well as the guy who has been in Dallas a good 6 years longer than he has. I have to assume that McCarthy does have the ability to whisper "Let's run it here" into the headset when he senses the need to. But on the failed 3rd down I come back to the simple fact that if the refs call the obvious PI on Alexander the drive continues and the Cowboys probably punch it in and win the game. Assuming the refs don't dedicate themselves to making sure Dallas leaves town a loser that is.

On the 4th down play I ALWAYS want to get Dak out of the pocket to allow him the option to run for the first down. I never like dropping back in a crucial situation when the other team KNOWS you're going to pass. I get that you needed to pass to make sure you got it past the sticks.. but roll Dak out.. bring a TE from the backside and flood the zone with receivers. Make the defense on that side decide to cover or come after Dak. Sitting him in the pocket made their lives way too easy.

Would you please become the OC? Maybe I could get K. Moore a job working at Chuck E. Cheese.

 

[BotchedLobotomy]

Dak has his flaws, Quinn has his flaws, MM has his flaws, the list goes on and on. The one person I honestly believe is the most detrimental to this team other than the Jones family, is Kellen Moore. We either need jettison KM or have MM to take over the play calling duties.

 

[BleedSilverandBlue]

Dak has his flaws, Quinn has his flaws, MM has his flaws, the list goes on and on. The one person I honestly believe is the most detrimental to this team other than the Jones family, is Kellen Moore. We either need jettison KM or have MM to take over the play calling duties.

I legitimately think the offense would be an order of magnitude better with a different OC in here. Kellen just does not even adhere to standard best practices when it comes to play calling.

 

[nalam]

Should’ve run the draw they’d had great success with but no, Kellen had to get cute once again.

I was begging in front of the screen , for a draw run, my son was saying no they have to pass .

 

[nhcowboysfan]

I want to preface this by saying I am not as hyperbolically mad as some of y’all. We weren’t going 15-2, realistically with the parity of the NFL we were going to lose 2-3 more games this season.

Losing to a team who was literally playing for their season at home led by a HOF QB in OT is not some season-wrecking loss. In fact, if you don’t get sucked into the vaccume of GB playing poorly recently, this would be a game many marked as an L. Yes losing sucks, but if we win next week we are right back on track. We could easily go 12-5 again and with some quality wins vs Philly/Minny then all this is forgotten.

With that being said, if you know you are going to go for it on 4th down, why not run on 3rd and 3?? Makes absolutely zero sense to pass twice there when we averaged 5+ YPC. If you don’t outright get the first you, probably set up a 4th and much easier.

My biggest issue with Moore/McCarthy is that they just run plays without any sequencing. They don’t have a broader picture of how the plays should be strung together, it’s just a play for right here right now then deal with the next one when we get there. How the heck do you not run on 3rd if you’re going for it? That’s the most inexcusable play of the day for me.

Because the problem is Kellen Moore. If it was 1st and goal at the 2-yard line, he would a call pass on every down if it were up to him. I agree that this was a communication issue (inexcusable) between the HC and OC. McCarthy should have told Moore to draw up two plays to get those three yards on 3rd and if necessary, 4th down.

 

[RonnieT24]

Would you please become the OC? Maybe I could get K. Moore a job working at Chuck E. Cheese.

I can't work the hours those guys do man.. Um too old.. LOL! I do sort of regret never pursuing coaching at a higher level (beyond high school) because I would have loved to have been in the midst of that level of competition when I was younger and could handle the hours.. though I probably would be on my third or fourth wife by now.. On a serious note, I met a guy a few years back who is a HS coach in Southern Cali who made me understand how important it is for men of color to pursue coaching. Because we are grossly underrepresented in the coaching fraternity given that we make up 65-70% of the players..

We all know that most of the time great players make the worst coaches.. but there are too many really smart brothers playing in the league who never get to sniff a real shot at coaching. Until I talked with this gentleman I really didn't give it much thought. But he was right.. He even tried to get me to move to SoCal to come coach with him.. but I AM still married. He also runs a series of camps for high school footballers called Showcase Football and owns what amounts to to recruiting information service where he travels around the country gathering info on players and feeds (sells?) it to colleges scouts. Interesting dude.. He was also a HS teammate and best friend of Nnamdi Asomugha (sp?) .. was best man at his wedding to that actress..

Not that and of that has anything to do with the point on Kellen Moore.. but maybe another OC who WASN'T a failed QB sticks to the run a little more and we win more games?

 

[NumOneQB]

I hated the call & not kicking the FG. Should’ve run on 3rd down if you’re thinking it’s 4 down territory. McCarthey screwed up there, imo. Of course, we all know had he made it this would be a different conversation.

 

[RonnieT24]

I hated the call & not kicking the FG. Should’ve run on 3rd down if you’re thinking it’s 4 down territory. McCarthey screwed up there, imo. Of course, we all know had he made it this would be a different conversation.

Thing is, the play call on 3rd down was a good one. Lamb got inside position, like he had failed to do earlier in the game, and if not for the blatant PI probably catches the ball and runs another 15 yards. So I can't even bang too hard on Moore for the call.. Because truth be told it worked. The refs just saw to it that it didn't. But if it were me I absolutely would have run it on 3rd down to try and make it 4th and inches or something. Maybe call a zone read so that if they crash down trying to stop the handoff Dak keeps it and runs 20 yards.. I don't like the "absolutely gotta throw it" mentality. Especially not in 4 down territory. Give me 2 cracks to gain 4 yards.. I'll take my chances. My money says two runs behind Martin and Steele get it done. But there was no guarantee the refs weren't going to see another phantom hold. No matter what people say, if the refs want you to lose, you're going to lose no matter what you do.

 

[starfan1]

A note from last year. I wonder if this was the problem yesterday?

[Helman] Kellen Moore says the Cowboys called 28 runs on Thursday night. Dak checked out of 12 of them based on the look.

Was this the 2019 quiet again ? Lol

we didn’t play on Thursday and today is Tuesday. Who cares about a 2019 qoute

 

[RonnieT24]

Was this quote from this week or 2019 the one that’s been floating around this site alot lately

we didn’t play on Thursday and today is Tuesday. Who cares about a 2019 qoute

It's actually from the day after the season opener against Tampa in 2021. Moore claimed Dak audibled out of 12 runs.. Since the offense scored 29 points and racked up like 500 yards I'd say whatever Dak audibled to worked. But I always err on the side of more running is better. But the Bucs defensive front kicked our line's butt that night. And it always comes down to if the QB audibles out of too many runs the OC can take him aside and tell him to stop. If he doesn't then he doesn't get to step to the podium and throw the QB under the bus like that.

 

[Bagman]

I can't work the hours those guys do man.. Um too old.. LOL! I do sort of regret never pursuing coaching at a higher level (beyond high school) because I would have loved to have been in the midst of that level of competition when I was younger and could handle the hours.. though I probably would be on my third or fourth wife by now.. On a serious note, I met a guy a few years back who is a HS coach in Southern Cali who made me understand how important it is for men of color to pursue coaching. Because we are grossly underrepresented in the coaching fraternity given that we make up 65-70% of the players..

We all know that most of the time great players make the worst coaches.. but there are too many really smart brothers playing in the league who never get to sniff a real shot at coaching. Until I talked with this gentleman I really didn't give it much thought. But he was right.. He even tried to get me to move to SoCal to come coach with him.. but I AM still married. He also runs a series of camps for high school footballers called Showcase Football and owns what amounts to to recruiting information service where he travels around the country gathering info on players and feeds (sells?) it to colleges scouts. Interesting dude.. He was also a HS teammate and best friend of Nnamdi Asomugha (sp?) .. was best man at his wedding to that actress..

Not that and of that has anything to do with the point on Kellen Moore.. but maybe another OC who WASN'T a failed QB sticks to the run a little more and we win more games?

I truly believe that Moore is too close to Dak personally. They're good friends. While that's absolutely great for teammates or fellow coaches, Moore needs to be more commanding and occasionally say NO to a pass happy approach . Even if it makes Dak mad. Being the entitled wimp that Moore is, he placates Dak to stay on his good side. Moore knows keeping Dak/Jerry happy guarantees employment even if it's to the detriment of the team.

 

[RonnieT24]

I truly believe that Moore is too close to Dak personally. They're good friends. While that's absolutely great for teammates or fellow coaches, Moore needs to be more commanding and occasionally say NO to a pass happy approach . Even if it makes Dak mad. Being the entitled wimp that Moore is, he placates Dak to stay on his good side. Moore knows keeping Dak/Jerry happy guarantees employment even if it's to the detriment of the team.

Interesting take. I have always sort of had the opposite view ... which was that Dak listens to Moore TOO much. Dak has said on many occasions that he considers Moore to be "an offensive genius." As such I think Dak eats up whatever Moore feeds him in the game plan. And both of them being QBs.. the game plan is nearly always going to be pass heavy with the run as an afterthought. I have always maintained that Dak needs to be empowered to shake Moore off when he sends in the 5 wide empty backfield formation on 1st and goal at the 2 yard line. Or after a big run from one of the backs. Dak needs to be step in and say, "let's give it to him again" and refuse to run the damn end around double reverse in the red zone. But I am open to the possibility that it could be the other way around? We did see Dak "kill kill kill" to a run play several times on Sunday. But people always assume that call is a change from a run to a pass or vice versa when on many occasions it's from one run to another or from one pass to another.

 

[starfan1]

It's actually from the day after the season opener against Tampa in 2021. Moore claimed Dak audibled out of 12 runs.. Since the offense scored 29 points and racked up like 500 yards I'd say whatever Dak audibled to worked. But I always err on the side of more running is better. But the Bucs defensive front kicked our line's butt that night. And it always comes down to if the QB audibles out of too many runs the OC can take him aside and tell him to stop. If he doesn't then he doesn't get to step to the podium and throw the QB under the bus like that.

Thank you I thought I seen one floating around this site from 2019