#42 we trade away (plus Dat) for Howard

[blindzebra]

Spears reminds me of Leon Lett.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

I think most people think Spears and Seymour relate, same as Ware/Haley. I don't see Canty being anything like Strahan (I guess that is who you mean) as he outweighs him by 15 pounds. Strahan had to put on weight to be a pro. Canty is built like a power forward and is not carrying alot of excess weight.

That's exactly right. Gaptooth = Strahan.

I see simularity in the two because of how they were both viewed coming out. Most people never thought Strahan would be a very good pass rusher in the NFL either and at first, he wasn't. Canty is bigger then Strahan but 13 years ago, Strahan was considered pretty good sized. Strahan plays LDE, which is where I would see Canty in a 43 so that's kinda how I draw the simularities. I would not be surprised to see Canty turn into the same kind of player.

 

[Nors]

Spears to Seymour, Leonard Marshall

Canty to Trevor Pryce

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Spears to Seymour, Leonard Marshall

Canty to Trevor Pryce

I can see the Canty thing. Not Spears to Marshall.

 

[Banned_n_austin]

Extremely unlikely. He's a small school tweener in a draft class full of guys that bring similar things to the table. I'd say second round at best, maybe even later. For some reason fans fall in love with a guy they read about in Sporting News' draft guide and all of a sudden he shoots to the top of his draft class. Sorry, but Ware is going to have to stand in line with a whole bunch of guys like Pollard, Roth, Dan Cody, Tuck and Goddard, all of whom (except perhaps Goddard) are ranked as better talents by most draft experts.

Mmmm hmmm ...

 

[Banned_n_austin]

When BP was hired, guys started coming out of the wood work saying we were going to a 34. At that time, I said it would take a minimum of 3 years to be able to make that sort of move. Well, it's coming up on 3 years. We will not be going to a 34 this year. Perhaps next but if we sign Howard, I don't see why we would do this. As a change up, perhaps but not as a base. Everybody better get used to the idea of a 43 because Hos is correct. If we sign a Howard or Abrahams, that means 43. You don't spend the money we've spent on front four personel only to have them play a 34. Those guys will be our play makers. They will be on the field.

:nono:

 

[Banned_n_austin]

Hos, I have to disagree with you on this one. Just because we have four fine front four players (assuming Howard gets onboard) doesn't mean all four will play every down. There will be times when some are out on rotation, out due to injury and schemes will change for different teams and even during games and on certain downs. So having the versatility to run either 4-3 or 3-4 makes it even more attractive to me. It certainly will cause teams to prepare for more and create more match up problems. We we exploit those matchup problems foreseen and those that arise during games.

I think we will run a combination of schemes this year according to who is here and healthy and how those personnel match the other team and situations. The addition of Howard and/or Abraham and others who play the 4-3 and/or 3-4 better just make things better IMO.

Good post, Jobberone ..

 

[Juke99]

Spears reminds me of a rookie who hasn't stepped on an NFL field yet.

Canty reminds me of a rookie who hasn't stepped on an NFL field yet.

Ware reminds me of a rookie who hasn't stepped on an NFL field yet.

 

[Hostile]

Here’s my take on the personnel we have on defense:

(Please keep in mind that this is merely my opinion. I realize it is and that I may not be correct in my thinking on some players.)

The very fact that you are rational enough to say that tells me your mind is open. pardon me, I'm going to break it down piece by piece because I think this is a great post.

Marcus Spears - He's a huge DE. He's a little slow off the edge in a 4-3 but he has teriffic athleticism. Several places I've read say he is an ideal 3-4 DE but a tad big and slow for a 4-3 DE. I agree, although I think he'd be good in either scheme. Reggie White would’ve had the same knocks on him coming out and he did quite well in a 4-3.

I think he is well suited for both schemes. His size and strength will be hard to deal with. You want that in a player regardless of scheme.

Jason Ferguson - I think he'd be a very good, solid run plugger in either scheme. He's a good guy to have and will play a big part in our defense no matter which scheme we're in. He'll be great in either.

One negative is his age. How much longer can he be effective? In other words, if we are moving in this direction then we will be looking for his replacement sooner than we think. He and Glover could just as easily be a solid DT pair in a 4-3. He is the biggest key to the 3-4 this year. I think he is much more suited to be the NT than Glover. Great signing.

La'Roi Glover - Obviously a 4-3 guy. I do think he'll be effective from the nose in passing situations, but clearly, he's suited for a 4-3 defense. Either scheme we play... LaRoi needs a lot more rest than he got last year.

Not just a 4-3 guy, but one of the best in the NFL at it. Great character too. His talent alone is proof that we will run multiple defensive looks. They will get him on the field.

Greg Ellis - Another player who is clearly a 4-3 guy. I do think he will be effective as a 3-4 DE, particularly if he gets some rest, but he's a very good DE in a 4-3.

I agree with evey word. If the 3-4 is working well here he might be trade bait. Just my opinion, but it will be kind of sad to lose a guy with his character. Even if I have been on his back ever since he got here. I admit it, I wanted that WR.

Chris Canty - A 3-4 DE all the way. He's ideal for that scheme and he played it in college and excelled there. In a 4-3 he's a bit slow and big for DE and too light and high-cut for DT. Yes, I know there have been some effective DT's who were tall, but I just don't think Canty would do too well there. He's going to be dynamite as part of a 3-4 DE rotation.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I think he is more suited to the 4-3 than the 3-4, but he is potentially an asset in either scheme. I don't think DT is a good fit at all. The reason I say more suited to the 4-3 is that he is actually very quick. I'm not talking abotu 40 speed, I'm talking about reflexes. I can see him comfortable in either scheme.

Jay Ratliff - another guy who's just a little too big and slow for 4-3 DE and a little too small for DT. That's why he didn't have an outstanding college career and why he didn't go higher in the draft. He has a lot going for him though: Athleticism, tenacity, drive, work ethic, smarts. In college he didn't have the right build though... but in the pro's he's going to have the perfect size for a 3-4 DE and could surprise a lot of people. He's perfect for a 3-4 DE.

Interesting player. I think he moves Kenyon Coleman inside and gives us some valuable backup. You said the key word with all of these guys...smarts. The reason almost all of our players could play either scheme is that they are smart. That is so underrated.

Eric Ogbogu - Definately a 4-3 end... but nothing special in any scheme. He'll very likely be a casualty of all the new DL talent.

I think his only hope to make this squad is as a 3-4 OLB and I don't see an open spot for him.

Kenyon Coleman - At 6-5, 284 he's built more for a 3-4 than a 4-3. He just didn't have the quickness to be anything else than a run clogger in a 4-3. Again, either way, he isn't overflowing with talent and could find himself out of the picture. He does have the size going for him in a 3-4 however and until training camp we just won't know if he'll make it or not.

I think his only real shot is to move to DT. He can play either scheme but I agree, he is more suited to 3-4 if he stays DE.

Leo Carson - He's built more like Glover than

Ferguson and should be more effective as a 4-3 DT than a 3-4 NT. He may have a hard time making it on the team because a player like Ratliff who could play DT or NT in a pinch but has real value as a DE probably will push him off the roster.

I don't see a spot left for him quite frankly.

Linebackers:

Demarcus Ware - Although he would be a very good pass rush specialist from 4-3 DE (and will be), he's a little undersized for that position and would have trouble against the run. Like Parcells said, you wouldn't want him lining up against a tackle 60 times a game. He wouldn't play OLB in a 4-3 because he isn't ideally suited for that position. As a rush LB in a 3-4 he is ideal. We knew he had the athleticism to do it and the pass rush skills... the only question was his coverage. In minicamp everyone was surprised at how well he was able to cover and so with that question at least partially answered, he looks like a prototype pass rushing 3-4 OLB.

I think he will be good in either scheme, but better in the 3-4. I think he needs to stay at OLB and not DE. The reason is speed. Pure unadulterated speed that is hard to deal with. We are going to love this guy.

Dat Nguyen - He did play as a 3-4 ILB at Texas A&M and should do fine there in the pro's. He is a little smaller than Parcells would like there and his size is a little less of a factor in a 4-3... so, although I think he'll be fine in a 3-4, I'd have to say he's more suited to play MLB in a 4-3.

I agree, but I think he is smart enough to make the adjustment. This guy is a key to how much we play of each scheme this year every bit as much as Glover is. Parcells loves him. Not hard to understand, the guy is smart as hell and leaves nothing on the field. His veteran presence and leadership are never more needed than this year.

Kevin Burnett - As we've all read numerous times, he could play in either scheme. He'll put on some more weight and has absolutely wonderful athletic skills. He'll be fine either way and was a great pick by Parcells.

Agree. Just get this kid on the field already. I truly believe he will be a difference maker at this level. Loved this pick.

Bradie James - I've read a few times that he should be better as an ILB in a 3-4 than he was as an OLB in a 4-3. I agree with that and think he could silence some of his critics this season.

I was so excited when we got him in the 4th. Been a little disappointed so far. make or break year. Tailor made for the new scheme. If he can't cut it this year, he likely never will. He was practically gifted Coakley's spot last year and couldn't take it from him.

Scott Shanle - Parcells likes him and thinks he'll play very good as a 3-4 ILB. I agree with that also. He's a hardnosed guy who can add even more weight and could flourish in the new scheme. I think he's better suited for that than 4-3 OLB or MLB.

I have my doubts about him because the only real playing time he has got so far ws as the result of an injury to Singleton. Supposed to be so superior yet needed a gift to play. It is between him or James inside. If neither can step up the 3-4 may be shelved for one more year.

Kalen Thornton - He's definately one of Parcells 3-4 peices and might surprise a few people as a 3-4 OLB. There's no question that he's more suited to a 3-4 than a 4-3... he doesn't have the right size or speed for a 4-3 OLB.

I agree with this 100%.

Al Singleton - Definately a 4-3 player. He just doesn't have the size for the 3-4. He might have a difficult time making the squad because of that and his salary. Still, he has the mind of a Parcells player and is a salty veteran, so he might just stick around another year.

I agree with this as well. Despite the negative rap on him often spun here this is the first "big" LB that Parcells went after.

Keith O'Neil - Probably about as valuble in either scheme... which is to say special teams is how he'll make the roster.

On the money again.

Ryan Fowler - At 6-3, 243 he has some size and is a big hitter as he showed last year on special teams. He's more physical than fast which I would think makes him a better player for a 3-4 than a 4-3.

I call him the "Real QB Killa" because he was the roster addition when a certain QB was waived. Just a joke. I'm sure someone will be offended by it. He's a fringe player in either scheme IMO. I think he is on the bubble.

Mike Goolsby - Parcells definatley brought him in with the 3-4 ILB position in mind. Hardnosed and should be able to take on a guard at the next level.

I agree with you 100% again, but I do think he is a down the road look, meaning he probably is PS this year. I can see him filling O'Neil's spot on ST if he plays well enough in TC. More suited to the 3-4 than O'Neil IMO.

So, by my count, here is the breakdown of who is more suited to play in which scheme:

DL better suited for 3-4:

Marcus Spears

Chris Canty

Jay Ratliff

Kenyon Coleman



DL better suited for 4-3:

La'Roi Glover

Greg Ellis

Eric Ogbogu

Leo Carson



DL that will be the same in either:

Jason Ferguson



LB better suited for 3-4:

Demarcus Ware

Brady James

Scott Shanle

Kalen Thornton

Ryan Fowler

Mike Goolsby



LB better suited for 4-3:

Dat Nguyen

Al Singleton



LB that will be the same in either:

Kevin Burnett

Keith O'Neil





So we have:

4 DL better in a 3-4

4 DL better in a 4-3

1 DL same in either



6 LB better in a 3-4

2 LB better in a 4-3

2 LB same in either



or:



10 front seven guys best in a 3-4

6 front seven guys best in a 4-3

3 guys suited for either scheme

We disagree her eand there on numbers, bt verall, I'd say on the money.

It isn't that easy though. We all know that those guys don't have equal value to the team. Some are stars, some are role players and some are fringe players. Some have a ton of upside and some are about as good as they'll get or are even on the downside. Some are a mixture of more than one of those types.

This is the key to understanding all of this. Too often it is completely ignored. Veterans have value. Leaders have value. If we try and rush a bunch of young kids out there we will basically hve a college defense with an NFL lean. Not nearly good enough.

So, there really isn't a good way to break it down like this, but I'm trying it as best I can. It's the offseason, so I'm just killing time anyway.

What you are really doing is saving my day. This was worth the time to think about.

Of the players who are best suited for a 4-3, there are three who I would consider to be important players (in bold above): Glover, Ellis, and Nguyen. The other three, Ogbogu, Carson, and Singleton aren't the types of players you would consider when thinking which scheme to run. Of those three important guys, Glover is the only one who lost a starting position. Ellis and Nguyen will be starters.

I agree. Depending upon the trade value I can see a scenario where 2 of them might be moved. I don't think Dat is going anywhere.

Of the players who are best suited for a 3-4, there are four who I would consider to be important players (in bold above): Spears, Canty, Ware, and James (I do have high hopes for Ratliff too, but didn't include him). Those guys are our future on defense, or at least part of it. Spears and Ware were first rounders and Canty could've been. James has a lot of physical potential and if the light comes on, will be a star at ILB.

For now I can't include James. I want to, but he's proven nothing so far.

What does all of that mean? I'm not sure. I do think that you can't necessarily say we have better personnel for the 4-3 than we do for the 3-4. We have quite a few guys who are better suited for a 3-4 and should excel in that scheme.

Does that mean we are better suited for a 3-4 than a 4-3? No, I don't think that either.

I think best 11 on the field does mean 4-3 as of right now. By the end of the season if Shanle or James step up I don't know that we can say that. There are going to be growing pains. I'm willing to live through them. No problem.

I think Hos said it best when he mentioned that we're in a transition year on defense. This is going to be a work in process and there are going to be times that we’re in a 4-3 and should be… and times we’re in a 3-4 and should be.

This isn't just a transition to the 3-4 either. We're getting younger, bigger, and faster with the exception of Aaron Glenn and jason Ferguson. I still think this is a 2 year transition with the 2006 off season being just as crucial in finding building blocks.

The coaches will study the opponent and know the situation before they put the defense in any particular scheme. If we’re playing a team with a weak center for instance, Parcells might want

Ferguson and Glover head up on him for most of the game… so we’d run the 3-4 most of the time.



A team with two weak tackles? We might line up 4-3 for most of the game. If we can’t get pressure on the passer, we’d probably switch to some 3-4 looks.



3-4 getting run on a lot? Presto, back into the 4-3 and lock down the run.

See, that's exactly what I've been trying to explain for a long time. It isn't about the scheme we run it is about how we stop the schemes they run. I like that we're building an adaptable defense. I don't are what scheme is used as long as we are doing what wins games.

Frankly, I couldn’t be more excited about what we’re doing and the personnel we’ve acquired. I think we’re going to be a handful for any offense and it’s going to be very difficult to prepare for the Cowboy defense.

Preach it Asthma and don't psare the expletives if you feel moved.

Who will the center be facing? Will the tackle have to watch for Ellis off of the edge, or Ware? What are the guards assignments on each particular run play? Nguyen or Glover? Will Ware be a pass rush DE or will he be an every down Rush LB? Can your fat Guard move well enough to find Bradie James and block him? Where is Spears and his incredible first step coming from? Who should pick him up? Do they double Ellis, Glover,

Ferguson, Spears or Ware? When your tackle is tired in the 4th quarter, can he block a fresh Canty coming off the bench? Your small athletic guard is great at getting to LB’s… what if he has to get Ferguson instead?

All questions we will be asking as the games gear up.

It’s easy to see the problems offenses will face when preparing for our multiple scheme defense.

One reminder, it is also easy to see the problems these rookies will face in trying to stop NFL players for the first time in their lives. Remember, the other guy is shooting back and sometimes you'll miss.

If you could put a number to a defense that runs both the 3-4 and the 4-3, we would all be in agreement on the scheme. Call it at 34-43 and we’d never argue about it.

I just want to come up with a new nickname for them and forget the stupid schemes and numbers. It wasn't a 4-3 damnit, it was Doomsday.

We shouldn’t be now. We all know Parcells is going to run both and as good as he is at in-game adjustments, I don’t know why anyone would be anything except excited about the prospects of running both. I know I am.

We’re going to be a handful.

Great post. Had fun with it. Thank you.

 

[Hostile]

Spears reminds me of a rookie who hasn't stepped on an NFL field yet.

Canty reminds me of a rookie who hasn't stepped on an NFL field yet.

Ware reminds me of a rookie who hasn't stepped on an NFL field yet.

Nice and succinct.

 

[Banned_n_austin]

My line up:

LDE Spears 307, DT ferguson 305, DT Glover 282, RDE Ellis 271

OLB Burnett 239, MLB Nguyen 238, OLB Ware 251

THAT is a good looking 4-3 look. I hope to see that personnel in there this year at the same time. Simply amazing from where we were last year!

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

:nono:

OK, I'm lost. What is the purpose of that post? Hopefully, it's not just to pad the post count.

 

[Juke99]

Nice and succinct.

Can ya be redundant and succinct at the same time?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Can ya be redundant and succinct at the same time?

Yes.


No! No! NO!



See?

 

[Juke99]

Yes.


No! No! NO!



See?

Thanks.

I appreciate that.

Thanks.

I appreciate that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Thanks.

I appreciate that.

Thanks.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, your getting it. Thats good!


LOL!!!!

I slay my Juke.

LOL

 

[Juke99]

Yeah, your getting it. Thats good!


LOL!!!!

I slay my Juke.

LOL

:

Ya know, with a little practice, I could be a contender.

And if I am ever able to brush up on my Hos-isms, like, "The big guns might fire in the morning but it'll be a long day before the sun goes down over my Uncle Horatio's lean-to" then the sky is the limit.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

"The big guns might fire in the morning but it'll be a long day before the sun goes down over my Uncle Horatio's lean-to" then the sky is the limit.

Oh mama, my eyes have seen enough to know that I have seen too much.

Your ready.

I'm in favor of closing this thread now. It aint gonna get no better then that.

 

[Hostile]

THAT is a good looking 4-3 look. I hope to see that personnel in there this year at the same time. Simply amazing from where we were last year!

Let me give you credit for actually looking at it from the standpoint of seeing that the players could succeed as opposed to the scheme is wrong. Thank you.

 

[Hostile]

:

Ya know, with a little practice, I could be a contender.

And if I am ever able to brush up on my Hos-isms, like, "The big guns might fire in the morning but it'll be a long day before the sun goes down over my Uncle Horatio's lean-to" then the sky is the limit.

Gibberish is never a "Hos-ism." It must have just the right amount of buckshot and be home spun humor. Hence..."A wise old cowboy once told me..."

:wink2: