A couple baseball questions

[InmanRoshi]

I wouldn't be surprised if a scientific study found that being too muscled up negatively impacted your hand eye coordination, that doesn't mean it didn't drastically improve other parts of your athletic performance. Baseball players from the 60s say they mainly used amphetamines for recovery purposes. Particularly when you're playing a 162 game schedule when road travel wasn't as comfortable, and late night boozing and other festivities were a lot more accepted.

I just don't draw much of a line between improving your strength and recovery through the manipulation of one hormone (adrenaline) over another hormone (testosterone)

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I just don't draw much of a line between improving your strength and recovery through the manipulation of one hormone (adrenaline) over another hormone (testosterone)

By that thinking, what's the difference between roids and strong pot of coffee?

Greenie use looks pretty unseemly now, but it's nothing like steroids and GH. And it wasn't against the rules.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

By that thinking, what's the difference between roids and strong pot of coffee?

Greenie use looks pretty unseemly now, but it's nothing like steroids and GH. And it wasn't against the rules.

Steroid use wasn't against the "rules" until recently as MLB had no policy.


That's the main reason MLB suffered the wrath of the media, Congress and others while the NFL escaped almost any scrutiny despite usage being much more rampant in the NFL because they had a policy in place.

 

[casmith07]

Being fairly young and not really caring about baseball much I had a couple questions.

1) Should Pete Rose ever be let into the hall of fame?
2) Should Mark McGuire be in the HOF?
3) With Clemens being found not guilty should he make the HOF at some point?

No
No
No

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Steroid use wasn't against the "rules" until recently as MLB had no policy.


That's the main reason MLB suffered the wrath of the media, Congress and others while the NFL escaped almost any scrutiny despite usage being much more rampant in the NFL because they had a policy in place.

Vincent banned steroids in 1991. They just didn't have a testing program because the union wouldn't agree to it. Doesn't mean using steroids was acceptable.

 

[gmoney112]

There's 6 current HOFers who I know used PEDs or other illegal drugs during their playing careers and those are only the ones of which I know.

The steroid era didn't start in the late 90s, it started in the mid-70s.

There's no doubt in my mind that a majority of the beloved athletes over the last 20 years ingested some type of PED at least once in their careers. With how lacksadaisical testing was and the increasing pressure from fans for more home runs/explosive tackles/etc. as well as how fierce the competition is in sports to be in peak physical condition, I don't really have a problem with it. People are willfully ignorant if they fail to comprehend that it was/is going on, moreso now on a collegiate level with the pressures of being drafted, but thinking that Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire were doing something completely out of line for a major athlete is hogwash.

That being said, Roger should be in the HOF, imo. It's a shame the whole circus he had to go through. It's not like he's some power slugger, he was a pitcher. Steroids aren't even going to be that effective for a pitcher and in many cases, depending on what he used, could have actually been detrimental. If it was just HGH, then that's even weaker. HGH should be used for every major athlete in every sport, when prescribed and administered by a licensed physician. PED's or not, there's not many people that can do what Roger did.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

There's no doubt in my mind that a majority of the beloved athletes over the last 20 years ingested some type of PED at least once in their careers. With how lacksadaisical testing was and the increasing pressure from fans for more home runs/explosive tackles/etc. as well as how fierce the competition is in sports to be in peak physical condition, I don't really have a problem with it. People are willfully ignorant if they fail to comprehend that it was/is going on, moreso now on a collegiate level with the pressures of being drafted, but thinking that Jose Canseco and Mark McGwire were doing something completely out of line for a major athlete is hogwash.

That being said, Roger should be in the HOF, imo. It's a shame the whole circus he had to go through. It's not like he's some power slugger, he was a pitcher. Steroids aren't even going to be that effective for a pitcher and in many cases, depending on what he used, could have actually been detrimental. If it was just HGH, then that's even weaker. HGH should be used for every major athlete in every sport, when prescribed and administered by a licensed physician. PED's or not, there's not many people that can do what Roger did.

You're falling for the most common misconception about steroids...they are used by pitchers more frequently than position players during the season as it helps them recover quicker. On a typical 25 man roster, 4-5 of the position players would be users, 7-8 of the pitchers. When you look at a money team like Boston, the numbers jumped up to almost even but then the Yankees had even fewer position players but almost every pitcher except Rivera.

 

[Rogah]

Being fairly young and not really caring about baseball much I had a couple questions.

1) Should Pete Rose ever be let into the hall of fame?

No. We can easily forgive people who cheat to get ahead. But what is absolutely impermissible in sports is someone who deliberately loses because they have money on the game.

2) Should Mark McGuire be in the HOF?

Tough one. I tend to lean towards yes because if you leave McGwire out due to steroids, then you pretty have to leave ALL of 'em out.

3) With Clemens being found not guilty should he make the HOF at some point?

The recent verdict is irrelevant, but Clemens is in the same category as McGwire.

The HOF is going to have a very interesting case of schizophrenia if they let some juicers in, but not others.

 

[Rogah]

I wouldn't be surprised if a scientific study found that being too muscled up negatively impacted your hand eye coordination, that doesn't mean it didn't drastically improve other parts of your athletic performance.

If you talk about hypotheticals, then anything could theoretically be true. But in the real world, it is undeniable that steroids help players hit home runs. Now all the steroids in the world aren't going to help me hit an HR, but if you take a Major League Baseball player, especially one who already has a lot of power, and give him that little extra boost, you're going to have more homers.

 

[InmanRoshi]

If you talk about hypotheticals, then anything could theoretically be true. But in the real world, it is undeniable that steroids help players hit home runs. Now all the steroids in the world aren't going to help me hit an HR, but if you take a Major League Baseball player, especially one who already has a lot of power, and give him that little extra boost, you're going to have more homers.

Yeah, if you read carefully I wasn't arguing any differently.

 

[Picksix]

Doesn't matter when he bet on baseball. Every player, coach, bat boy, clubhouse attendant from Low A to the Bigs...understands that if you do it and are caught, you're gone for good, no ifs, ands or buts.

I see your point, and you're right. He should never be allowed back in the game. But there are two problems regarding the HOF. One, before the Rose situation, being banned from baseball and being banned from HOF consideration were independent of each other. Giamatti joined them together, and made them mutually dependent. Two, his jersey, and the bat he used to break the hit record are in the Hall, but he isn't. Baseball continues to make money off of what he did, and continues to honor themselves by what he did, but won't honor the player for what he did. To me, that's a pretty big hypocrisy.

He bet on baseball, and thus he should never be allowed to partake in the game again. But there's never been any proof that his gambling affected his play, or that of his team. And as to whether or not he may have ruined Mario Soto's career, well that's just complete speculation on your part.

The man has more hits than any player that ever played, and he didn't cheat to get there. He played as hard as he could, every time he went out there. He absolutley belongs in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Rogah]

The man has more hits than any player that ever played, and he didn't cheat to get there. He played as hard as he could, every time he went out there. He absolutley belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Saying he always "played as hard as he could" is just a tired old cliche which we honestly don't know if it is true or not. If you looked at historical box scores, I'm sure we kind find a couple days where he went 0-fer.... maybe had an error in the field. So did he have a bad day or was he just doing his best to put the fix in?

 

[jobberone]

I would put Rose in but I don't know if he ever gets in.

Not sure McGuire gets in although I applaud his honesty. Don't know how I'd vote there either. Probably no on both of them.

Clemens almost certainly juiced but there is no proof or confession. So I don't see how they keep him out unless something comes up between now and then. And you pitch with your legs as well as your arms so steroids certainly helps. OTOH, Ryan didn't juice AFAIK so I guess its possible to pitch well into your 40s with the right training program.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

I see your point, and you're right. He should never be allowed back in the game. But there are two problems regarding the HOF. One, before the Rose situation, being banned from baseball and being banned from HOF consideration were independent of each other. Giamatti joined them together, and made them mutually dependent. Two, his jersey, and the bat he used to break the hit record are in the Hall, but he isn't. Baseball continues to make money off of what he did, and continues to honor themselves by what he did, but won't honor the player for what he did. To me, that's a pretty big hypocrisy.

He bet on baseball, and thus he should never be allowed to partake in the game again. But there's never been any proof that his gambling affected his play, or that of his team. And as to whether or not he may have ruined Mario Soto's career, well that's just complete speculation on your part.

The man has more hits than any player that ever played, and he didn't cheat to get there. He played as hard as he could, every time he went out there. He absolutley belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Tell Joe Jackson or Buck Weaver that MLB and the HOF weren't always intertwined.

If he bet on every game, you might have an argument about not affecting games but he was selectively betting. That should tell you all you need to know.

I can't prove Rose destroyed Soto's arm but find one manager who didn't have a wager on the game who'd leave in a pitcher complaining of a sore arm when the pitching coach is begging you to get him out of there.

And Rose was one of the biggest speed abusers the game has ever seen so that's hardly playing "fair".

 

[Picksix]

Tell Joe Jackson or Buck Weaver that MLB and the HOF weren't always intertwined.

If he bet on every game, you might have an argument about not affecting games but he was selectively betting. That should tell you all you need to know.

I can't prove Rose destroyed Soto's arm but find one manager who didn't have a wager on the game who'd leave in a pitcher complaining of a sore arm when the pitching coach is begging you to get him out of there.

And Rose was one of the biggest speed abusers the game has ever seen so that's hardly playing "fair".

Perhaps unofficially, but they were eligible to be voted in until 1991.

As for a manager leaving in a pitcher when he's complaining of arm soreness, I can find you plenty. I've rehabbed enough rotator cuff tears and Tommy Johns to know that it's a lot more common than people think.

As far as being "one of the biggest speed abusers the game has ever seen", well, that acutally diminishes your claim. Increased amphetamine use, in small to moderate doses, has shown (in some cases) to modestly improve focus, concentration, and reaction time. Taken in large doses (like abusing) actually leads to diminished performance. I'm sure he took some greenies when he was playing, but to say they gave him an unfair competetive advantage is still theory. And they weren't illegal until 2005.

Look, I'm not trying to say Rose was a saint by any means. He's not. I never met the man, but I know a lot of people who have. He burned his share of bridges, and he pissed a lot of people off. Personally, regardless of whether he was betting on the games or not, I think he would have abused Soto, because he was one of only a couple of starters that could consistently give a high number of innings, and their bullpen during those years wasn't any good.

But he still deserves to be in the Hall.

 

[Kingsmith88]

Being fairly young and not really caring about baseball much I had a couple questions.

1) Should Pete Rose ever be let into the hall of fame?
2) Should Mark McGuire be in the HOF?
3) With Clemens being found not guilty should he make the HOF at some point?

1)Yes should have been in for awhile.
2) Maybe in time
3) maybe in time

 

[Rogah]

As for a manager leaving in a pitcher when he's complaining of arm soreness, I can find you plenty.

I'm sure you can, but here's the fundamental difference. With those other managers, being that there's no evidence they gambled on baseball games, we give them the benefit of the doubt that they were giving a good faith effort even if it resulted in doing a poor job. With Rose, a honest case could be made that he did what he did because he had money on the outcome. And that is simply unexcuseable.

I don't have to ask "Did Grady Little leave Pedro in for too long in game 7 of the 2003 ALCS because he made a stupid decision, or because he wanted to lose?" We as sports fan can tolerate stupidity and errors. Although they infuriate us, we continue watching. But if the guy deliberately loses? That's how you destroy sports leagues.