Abraham for Ellis

[50cent]

Let's also be sure that we look at Abraham's performance in context. His #s looked pretty ordinary until his big day against the Raiders. Before that he had 6.5 sacks for the year. Nothing to sneeze at but it doesn't really paint him as the super disruptive force he's getting credit for being on this board. He's got .5 more than Ellis. And if you have to even think about who is better in the locker room you must not follow either team at all.

Ah Abie, when your losing the whole game, teams usually run the ball alot more than trying to air it out. The Jets suck, he has been doubled all year and when they get down, teams simply smash mouth team. Thus leaving it almost impossible to get a sack on runnning plays. The Raiders maybe the only team that has a decent back outside of Philly that will air it out regardless.

 

[joseephuss]

He fits the 3-4 much better than he fits a 4-3. Playing in the 4-3 was a forced fit from Day 1. His natural weight is in the 245-250 range. He played outside linebacker in college in a 4-3. He runs a 4.41-4.45. It was like turning Lavar Arrington into a handon the ground DE and asking him grapple with OT's who out weigh him by 100 lbs. for 50 plays a game. Then they sit around and wonder why he's having injury problems at the end of the year?

You mentioned this in another thread. He seems like a good fit for WOLB. That would mean Ware would become the SOLB. Is Ware suited for that position? Or if Abraham came in, could he be the SOLB? I think both are better WOLBs. It is possible they could both be SOLBs, but it is more of a question mark.

 

[junk]

Abraham is still in his 20's, his contract won't be THAT big and his injuries were pretty much all related to his desire for a new contract.

If Parcells is going to be around next year, than I'd like to see him around.

You don't think his contract will be that big?

Grant Wistrom:
2004 1500000.00
2005 2000000.00
2006 3500000.00
2007 3500000.00
2008 4000000.00
2009 4500000.00

$14 million SB.

Jevon Kearse:
2004 535000.00
2005 890000.00
2006 2075000.00
2007 5200000.00
2008 6460000.00
2009 7720000.00
2010 8980000.00
2011 10240000.00

$16 million SB.

I expect his agent will use those two deals as the starting point for negotiation.

 

[joseephuss]

I was looking at the stats for Abraham. I was surprised that he only has 5 passes defended in his career. Ellis has 5 this season and 40 for his career. I wasn't trying to compare the two because I don't think they are the same type of player. Obviously, you wouldn't use Abraham to replace Ellis. You would ask him to do different things in the defensive scheme. This number just jumped out at me.

 

[junk]

You mentioned this in another thread. He seems like a good fit for WOLB. That would mean Ware would become the SOLB. Is Ware suited for that position? Or if Abraham came in, could he be the SOLB? I think both are better WOLBs. It is possible they could both be SOLBs, but it is more of a question mark.

Thats what I questioned.

Do you want to waste a premier pass rusher by having him cover TEs and mix it up with them, OTs and FBs in the running game?

Do you want Ware, who by Parcells reckoning, doesn't know what he is doing out there to have to learn a new position?

Do you rotate them? I'd hate to pay a guy a $16 million SB to sit on the bench.

I'm all for adding a guy that is going to make this team better. I am all for paying him if he fills a need and is worth it. I just question how he would fit in the scheme and if he'd be worth all that money.

If it works out, fine, but I do think these are valid questions as much as people would like to dismiss them with scorn.

 

[InmanRoshi]

I was looking at the stats for Abraham. I was surprised that he only has 5 passes defended in his career. Ellis has 5 this season and 40 for his career. I wasn't trying to compare the two because I don't think they are the same type of player. Obviously, you wouldn't use Abraham to replace Ellis. You would ask him to do different things in the defensive scheme. This number just jumped out at me.

Not really surprising, players who line up on the right side (typically the QB's blind side) have less batted down passes and more forced fumbles.

 

[rgcowboys]

I would rather get a draft pick

 

[InmanRoshi]

When the Ravens lined up in a 3-4 with Suggs on one side and Boulware on the other, who was the the prototypical strongside and who was the prototypical weakside? They were both hand on the ground defensive ends in college who had to learn the LB position.

 

[junk]

He fits the 3-4 much better than he fits a 4-3. Playing in the 4-3 was a forced fit from Day 1. His natural weight is in the 245-250 range. He played outside linebacker in college in a 4-3. He runs a 4.41-4.45. It was like turning Lavar Arrington into a handon the ground DE and asking him grapple with OT's who out weigh him by 100 lbs. for 50 plays a game. Then they sit around and wonder why he's having injury problems at the end of the year?

How is the 4-3 a forced fit? He played three years at SC as a DE. He played both strong side and weak side DE. The year he played OLB he had the second fewest sacks of his college career. Only in his freshman year did he have fewer sacks than his senior year.

In NY, he has played in the 4-3, I believe, every year, but one. In his rookie year, I think he played the 3-4 under Groh and had the fewest sacks of his career. It was also cut short by injury.

Now he may be able to play a OLB in the 3-4. Personally, I think it'd be weak side if he did. However, I don't see anything in his history that leads me to believe he is ill suited to play the 4-3.

If he plays weak side, do you move Ware to the strong side?

 

[AbeBeta]

Ah Abie, when your losing the whole game, teams usually run the ball alot more than trying to air it out. The Jets suck, he has been doubled all year and when they get down, teams simply smash mouth team. Thus leaving it almost impossible to get a sack on runnning plays. The Raiders maybe the only team that has a decent back outside of Philly that will air it out regardless.

Of course, the reason why teams run so well against the Jets is that Abraham isn't a good run defender.

 

[InmanRoshi]

If he plays weak side, do you move Ware to the strong side?

Sure. While the responsibities of WOLB and SOLB might differ slight, its still the same job. Kevin Burnett is playing both positions this eyar. If New England can line up with Rosie Colvin and Willie McGinnest in the 3-4 and if Baltimore can line up with Boulware and Suggs in the 3-4, Im not entirely sure why Dallas couldn't line up with Ware and Abraham ... two guys who have cracked 4.4+ 40 times.

 

[AbeBeta]

Just to remind folks. Trading Ellis for Abraham straight up -- or getting Abraham as an FA are both pipe dreams.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Just to remind folks. Trading Ellis for Abraham straight up -- or getting Abraham as an FA are both pipe dreams.

Thanks for the reminder. Evidently you know something that Jet fans who closely follow the team don't.

Just a reminder ... NY Daily news came out with an article just recently that said the Jets already have $125 million on the books to count against next year's salary cap. The expected cap number for 2006 will be $90-$95 million, at best.

 

[Wolverine]

I would rather keep Ellis. He will not cost as much. He is a good DL. And with some luck Mike Zimmer will be outta Dallas and Ellis sack numbers will be right up there with Abrahams when we have a real DC here.

 

[junk]

Sure. While the responsibities of WOLB and SOLB might differ slight, its still the same job. Kevin Burnett is playing both positions this eyar. If New England can line up with Rosie Colvin and Willie McGinnest in the 3-4 and if Baltimore can line up with Boulware and Suggs in the 3-4, Im not entirely sure why Dallas couldn't line up with Ware and Abraham ... two guys who have cracked 4.4+ 40 times.

But aren't those guys both rotating in other players as well. Vrabel in NE and Thomas in Baltimore?

Is Boulware even a starter anymore?

I am sure BP would know what would work in the 3-4 more than me, so if he goes for it, I'm on board I guess.

Hopefully, I at least gave some compelling arguments to think twice about it. :laugh2:

 

[InmanRoshi]

I'm not worried about it scheme wise and/or talent wise. Or even personality wise (I don't think he's nearly the bad apple people make him out to be). I've loved the players since he was in college. The issue is how many teams you have to outbid for him. My biggest fear is the Skins signing him, and we have to face Osi and Abraham in the division attacking our QB's blindside for the next 5-6 years.

 

[AbeBeta]

Thanks for the reminder. Evidently you know something that Jet fans who closely follow the team don't.

Just a reminder ... NY Daily news came out with an article just recently that said the Jets already have $125 million on the books to count against next year's salary cap. The expected cap number for 2006 will be $90-$95 million, at best.

Oh they got cap problems -- but those #s are overblown. At least 10 million of that involves Ty Law's bonus money -- money he'll never be paid. You've also got got guys like Pete Kendall (4.8 mill hit), Kevin Mawae (4.5), Wayne Chebret (2.3), and David Barrett (2.8) counting toward that -- all of those guys could be gone. Plus 20 million in cap $ tied up by C-Mart and Pennington. Pennington's hit is 12 million of they keep him -- 3 million if they cut him. Also, those stats include franchise $$ for Abraham and the crazy incentives that Ty Law will never reach. You cut Pennington and Law -- as has been pretty widely reported -- and you are at a more reasonable #.

They've got work to do -- which is why I think they are going to sign Abraham long-term -- or trade him for lots of picks. Keep in mind, if they sign him long term they will be looking at a comparatively small cap hit -- nearly half of his franchise #. I have no doubt they are going to blow some guys out - but would you rather cut end of career guys like Law, Mawae, and Martin -- or get rid of a young player? Seems like they don't have such tough choices to make at this point.

 

[DeathToTheSkinS]

I want ZERO part of Abraham...I've watched his career in NY.

No thanks.

Just curious Juke, y the negativity toward Abraham? What have you seen to have this outlook on him?

 

[Compacity]

Would you

no and or

just straight up

Heck no... I like Greg Ellis because he's more durable than John Abraham....I like Greg Ellis because he knows how to stop the run and he is a pass-rusher, and he has great leadership on the team...

Final he's a oringinal Cowboy...

 

[bbgun]

I just love how these hypothetical trades are always stacked in the Cowboys' favor.