At a glance Rob Ryan defenses vs Rod Marinelli defenses

[WillieBeamen]

The problem isn't the DCoord, it's the level of talent on defense (or lack thereof). We have too many "potential" elites (Irving, JSmith, Jones) and not enough actual players that are elite (DLAW and Lee).

Its both (talent level and Marinelli) that is dooming this team

 

[diefree666]

I have to roll my eyes when people harp on the 2003 D. Go back and look at the teams we faced in 2003 regular season. There is a reason that with 8 of 11 same starters in 2004 it was much worse. Blade and Woody and I forget the other change. Woody was a BIG loss obviously. Wiley was a bust. BUT there is no way the D should have been that bad but for one reason: the 2003 D faced few really good offenses and few really good QBs.

 

[waving monkey]

They were 2nd in points allowed and 1st in yards allowed in 2003.

They were transitioning to 3-4 personnel in 2004.

Despite adding more talented players, Parcells 3-4 never got close to the 2003 ranking again. The scheme switch was stupid.

Thank you

 

[jobberone]

Where does this absurd idea that Garrett doesn't care about the D come from? What's the factual basis for such comments? I see it as groupthink based on a perpetuated myth.

Why wouldn't he care? It's his team and he needs ST, O and D to play well.

Our D isn't playing well. Before the season the question marks were with every group. We didn't see a pass rush from the DL or us having the players to rush the passer. The LBers were a question mark with Lee's health, Wilson in trouble legally, and Hitchens......for most....under talented. There was no depth there either. The CBs were considered under talented as well with again no depth. The entire S entourage was considered vastly under talented.

So why does anyone have problems with the way the D is playing? Right now the DL is playing well above expectations and the talent is greater than we thought. The LBer core is more solid as well although depth remains an issue. The CBs are a bit better than most thought and the S play is at least as good or bad as we thought.

Marinelli is a good coach not great but he's getting the most out of the talent we have. He coold blitz more but we'll pay for it as much as we gain. He'll just have to be selective in its use. The DBs will have to grow into their position but we knew that. You can figure it out.

 

[Beast_from_East]

Where does this absurd idea that Garrett doesn't care about the D come from? What's the factual basis for such comments? I see it as groupthink based on a perpetuated myth.

Why wouldn't he care? It's his team and he needs ST, O and D to play well.

Our D isn't playing well. Before the season the question marks were with every group. We didn't see a pass rush from the DL or us having the players to rush the passer. The LBers were a question mark with Lee's health, Wilson in trouble legally, and Hitchens......for most....under talented. There was no depth there either. The CBs were considered under talented as well with again no depth. The entire S entourage was considered vastly under talented.

So why does anyone have problems with the way the D is playing? Right now the DL is playing well above expectations and the talent is greater than we thought. The LBer core is more solid as well although depth remains an issue. The CBs are a bit better than most thought and the S play is at least as good or bad as we thought.

Marinelli is a good coach not great but he's getting the most out of the talent we have. He coold blitz more but we'll pay for it as much as we gain. He'll just have to be selective in its use. The DBs will have to grow into their position but we knew that. You can figure it out.

I think the issue is the entire body of work, not just this year. This is his 5th year as DC as his defense statistically is no better than what Rob Ryan got out of his D. So people as the question, if Ryan was a scrub and was fired for the poor performance of his D, why is Rod not held to the same standard?

Of course that begs the question if Ryan was fired for poor performance of the D or was it a personality clash with Garrett, Ryan was getting too much of the attention by the media and such. And if people are hired and fired in this organization based on personality and "culture fit" and not based on their ability to actually do the job, that might be part of the problem right there.

The other issue is that Garrett is the head coach and has had 8 years to fix the defense and has failed miserably. Romo never had top ranked defenses year in and year out even though he played at a probowl level many years and now the same thing is happening to Dak, putting up 30 points a game and still losing. So people start asking the question, why has Garrett in 8 years not fixed the defense? Isn't the head coach responsible for the performance of the entire team, including the defense?

 

[Idgit]

Yes and that was thanks to Mike Zimmer. Who is one heck of a football coach.

Yes he was. Parcels said as much himslef when he worked with him. Zim was ridden out of here on a rail, though. That was another coaching 'debate' we had around here where the popular opinion ended up being the wrong opinion.

 

[jobberone]

I think the issue is the entire body of work, not just this year. This is his 5th year as DC as his defense statistically is no better than what Rob Ryan got out of his D. So people as the question, if Ryan was a scrub and was fired for the poor performance of his D, why is Rod not held to the same standard?

Of course that begs the question if Ryan was fired for poor performance of the D or was it a personality clash with Garrett, Ryan was getting too much of the attention by the media and such. And if people are hired and fired in this organization based on personality and "culture fit" and not based on their ability to actually do the job, that might be part of the problem right there.

The other issue is that Garrett is the head coach and has had 8 years to fix the defense and has failed miserably. Romo never had top ranked defenses year in and year out even though he played at a probowl level many years and now the same thing is happening to Dak, putting up 30 points a game and still losing. So people start asking the question, why has Garrett in 8 years not fixed the defense? Isn't the head coach responsible for the performance of the entire team, including the defense?

The point was people knew the talent level was questionable. There's no question there is a talent deficit and a relative lack of depth to the D. We knew this coming in and while there are areas of the D that are no questionably better than we thought it would be, the entire D still is questionable.

So why point fingers at the coaching staff? They aren't in the talent acquisition process nearly as much as the FO is. It's not their job although no doubt they provide some input.

They do need to be able to coach the players and I've got the DBs more in mind than the others although they get 'coached up' as well. You still can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. I think we have some talent esp at DB but it will take time for them to learn to play which includes their own curve to learn as well as how the coaches interact with them. It's talent, experience and coaching in that order.

 

[Beast_from_East]

The point was people knew the talent level was questionable. There's no question there is a talent deficit and a relative lack of depth to the D. We knew this coming in and while there are areas of the D that are no questionably better than we thought it would be, the entire D still is questionable.

So why point fingers at the coaching staff? They aren't in the talent acquisition process nearly as much as the FO is. It's not their job although no doubt they provide some input.

They do need to be able to coach the players and I've got the DBs more in mind than the others although they get 'coached up' as well. You still can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear. I think we have some talent esp at DB but it will take time for them to learn to play which includes their own curve to learn as well as how the coaches interact with them. It's talent, experience and coaching in that order.

So the coaches are not responsible because they aren't in the talent acquisition process.Its not their job, but they do provide input as you say.

Strange, I don't remember Wade Phillups being in the talent acquisition process? I don't remember Rob Ryan being in the talent acquisition process? But yet these guys were fired?

So let me get this straight, nobody should point fingers at the current coaching staff because the FO is responsible for talent acquisition, not the coaching staff, not their job as you say. However, previous coaches were fired for poor performance of the team/defense?

So why were previous coaches fired for poor performance of the team and defense when it was not their job either to select talent?

 

[jobberone]

So the coaches are not responsible because they aren't in the talent acquisition process.Its not their job, but they do provide input as you say.

Strange, I don't remember Wade Phillups being in the talent acquisition process? I don't remember Rob Ryan being in the talent acquisition process? But yet these guys were fired?

So let me get this straight, nobody should point fingers at the current coaching staff because the FO is responsible for talent acquisition, not the coaching staff, not their job as you say. However, previous coaches were fired for poor performance of the team/defense?

So why were previous coaches fired for poor performance of the team and defense when it was not their job either to select talent?

I specifically stated they had some input into talent acquisition or players. Just not nearly that of the FO. Nor did I say they shouldn't be held accountable for talent. They are responsible for getting the most of the talent which includes their major job or coaching. You're the one with the black and white or all or nothing thinking here not me.

There are multiple reasons for firing coaches some of which is not being able to develop the talent given to them to coach and produce into victories. But it is talent first then that talent's ability to acquire positive experience translating it into success on the field then coaching that talent in that order which produces most of the results we see on the field of play. Putting that talent in the right position is part of coaching and scheme and that is important as well. Just not as important as the former things. Players play and coaches coach. Better talent is generally going to win out. Otherwise there is no need for a draft.

 

[BigStar]

It didn't matter if they switched at that point. They eventually moved on from Spenver and Ware because they didn't think they could stay healthy.

Ratliff flipped out mentally.

Hatcher had his best year with Marinelli.

Sean Lee is great in either defense, but WLB in the 4-3 keeps him away from OL blocks more than 3-4 ILB or 4-3 MLB.

Bruce Carter fit either defense about the same.

Josh Brent departed because of the car wreck.

Sean Lissemore is about the only player that was a better fit in the 3-4.

So, we did it for Sean Lee. Ware was terrible in the 4-3 and was still productive with Denver. Hatcher had one good year bc he got to play the 3 tech and then jetted to WAS after one season. Glad we stuck with it? Rest are distractions; a real 1 tech could be signed instead of relying on Brent and Lissemore was a 6th RD pick...come on. Sounds sad, Carter was a better fit in the 3-4 or 4-3 than Jaylon has been in our current scheme.

 

[Walker]

We need Wade Phillips

 

[Prossman]

from beginning to end Ryans defense had a lot more talent that Jasons

 

[BigStar]

from beginning to end Ryans defense had a lot more talent that Jasons

I think Ryan was just a bad coordinator/teacher too. Players always looked confused even given the injuries; seemed he knew what he wanted, but the players were left halfway out of the loop due to his poor work ethic/play-calling. Rod's main problems are the lack of respecting the 1 tech (obtaining one in draft/FA), never blitzing and when we do not nearly as effectively as other teams do, and relying on soft coverage when obv. having a minimal pass rush depending on the game. This shouldn't be as big of an issue with Lewis being for real, Irving and Lawrence having a career year (won't be double teamed every snap anymore either).

No fans want coordinators who are conservative/simple (what do you do all week? "Same as last week guys, but better?).