Biofuels being grown in the desert… with saltwater

[jobberone]

oh come on, the article dripped with it....

MAY have achieved... COULD be.....

Hardly dripping. Take off the colored glasses and put it in the light and reread it.

 

[JackWagon]

You really think with the way this country is owned by Big Business ... that Big Oil would ever let you cut them off at the knees? Really?

 

[jrumann59]

Right now the biggest problem with biofuels is that more energy is put in than refined, I think what ethanol is what 1 gallon of regular fuel equivalent to make .9 gallons of ethanol. Oh and a lot of older cars, 10 years old and older, fall "apart" from high ethanol fuel.

 

[burmafrd]

MAY have achieved... COULD be.....

Hardly dripping. Take off the colored glasses and put it in the light and reread it.

take off your rose colored glasses and read it again

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Right now the biggest problem with biofuels is that more energy is put in than refined, I think what ethanol is what 1 gallon of regular fuel equivalent to make .9 gallons of ethanol. Oh and a lot of older cars, 10 years old and older, fall "apart" from high ethanol fuel.

Thats with all energy. You necessarily lose energy when producing it.

It takes oil to make oil. What is interesting is it takes less oil to make 1 gallon of ethanol than it takes to make 1 gallon of gasoline. And I am talking about the oil needed to make it, not contained within it.

Further more, no, cars 10 years and older dont just fall apart. In fact, since the mid-late 1980's, vehicles fuel systems have been able to handle ethanol. Ive actually raced my vehicles on ethanol.

 

[jrumann59]

Thats with all energy. You necessarily lose energy when producing it.

It takes oil to make oil. What is interesting is it takes less oil to make 1 gallon of ethanol than it takes to make 1 gallon of gasoline. And I am talking about the oil needed to make it, not contained within it.

Further more, no, cars 10 years and older dont just fall apart. In fact, since the mid-late 1980's, vehicles fuel systems have been able to handle ethanol. Ive actually raced my vehicles on ethanol.

most passenger vehicles have to be properly converted to handle ethanol, fuel lines, seals, exhaust have to be resistant to it especially e85. I know gas usually has 10-15% ethanol and for most cars that is not an issue. Alcohol in race cars is not new since it has considerably higher octane rating allowing for higher chamber temps, advanced timing, higher compression.

You are being a little misleading because in refinement process to make gas you also get diesel, kerosene and other fuels. When making ethanol you end up with ethanol and ash, and some nasty syrupy residue.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

most passenger vehicles have to be properly converted to handle ethanol, fuel lines, seals, exhaust have to be resistant to it especially e85. I know gas usually has 10-15% ethanol and for most cars that is not an issue. Alcohol in race cars is not new since it has considerably higher octane rating allowing for higher chamber temps, advanced timing, higher compression.

You are being a little misleading because in refinement process to make gas you also get diesel, kerosene and other fuels. When making ethanol you end up with ethanol and ash, and some nasty syrupy residue.

ANDDDDD....most of this is wrong.

There are no seals, fuel lines, etc. to convert in cars made in the last 20-30 years.

Here's my 2003 (same as the version they made in 1999 as far as fuel system) on e85:



Stock fuel lines, stock fuel seals, standard aluminum exhaust...none of that was needed in conversion. In fact, most of your fuel injected stuff wont need any of that touched. It is typically your carbureted vehicles that need seals changed in the physical carb itself.

Also, alcohol does not have a considerably higher octane rating, as the octane scale can only measure for gasoline...which means it doesnt work on alcohol fuels. Now, they can label it with a "equivalent" rating just like they label electric cars get 120mpg...when they dont even use gallons.

Further, it doesnt allow for higher chamber temperatures as ethanol combusts about 200* cooler than gasoline. Again, the "higher octane" isnt in play here.

It does allow for more advanced timing and higher compression before pre-ignition occurs, but thats due to other properties and not "higher octane".

Ethanol is also a renewable and green energy source. It only releases pollutants that the physical plants took in when they were growing. And, you just grow more stuff for more fuel

 

[Denim Chicken]

When making ethanol you end up with ethanol and ash, and some nasty syrupy residue.

You also get distillers grains which are used for animal fodder and are a sizable export product from the US.

 

[Denim Chicken]

".

Ethanol is also a renewable and green energy source. It only releases pollutants that the physical plants took in when they were growing. And, you just grow more stuff for more fuel

Depends on what it is made from and how it's produced. If we're talking about increased production of corn ethanol it could have an net negative environmental impact on par with petroleum.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Depends on what it is made from and how it's produced. If we're talking about increased production of corn ethanol it could have an net negative environmental impact on par with petroleum.

Maybe if the whole earth were corn. In general, plants take in C0.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Maybe if the whole earth were corn. In general, plants take in C0.

Yes, but you must consider the conversion lands required to plant additional acres, water movement and run-off, Co2 emissions from tractors, etc.. in production....

 

[65fastback2plus2]

Yes, but you must consider the conversion lands required to plant additional acres, water movement and run-off, Co2 emissions from tractors, etc.. in production....

yup...which is why i said im a big fan of algae ethanol

 

[Vtwin]

My 89 BMW absolutely runs worse on 10% ethanol then it does on straight gas. Idles rougher, less power, worse mileage. Its manual states that you can use up to 10% but you will suffer performance degradation and that you should never run higher than 10%. Knock on wood I have had no problems with damaged fuel lines, seals, etc.

The 95 Harley EVO has had the same results as the BMW.

I have read that my E85 capable 2011 F150 will run stronger on E85 but will get much worse economy. Haven't tested that yet myself.

 

[Rockport]

My 89 BMW absolutely runs worse on 10% ethanol then it does on straight gas. Idles rougher, less power, worse mileage. Its manual states that you can use up to 10% but you will suffer performance degradation and that you should never run higher than 10%. Knock on wood I have had no problems with damaged fuel lines, seals, etc.

The 95 Harley EVO has had the same results as the BMW.

I have read that my E85 capable 2011 F150 will run stronger on E85 but will get much worse economy. Haven't tested that yet myself.

It's a BMW. What do you expect? But you don't have to worry about fuel issues as long as you don't let your vehicle sit for 30 days or more without ever using it.

 

[jrumann59]

ANDDDDD....most of this is wrong.

There are no seals, fuel lines, etc. to convert in cars made in the last 20-30 years.

Here's my 2003 (same as the version they made in 1999 as far as fuel system) on e85:



Stock fuel lines, stock fuel seals, standard aluminum exhaust...none of that was needed in conversion. In fact, most of your fuel injected stuff wont need any of that touched. It is typically your carbureted vehicles that need seals changed in the physical carb itself.

Also, alcohol does not have a considerably higher octane rating, as the octane scale can only measure for gasoline...which means it doesnt work on alcohol fuels. Now, they can label it with a "equivalent" rating just like they label electric cars get 120mpg...when they dont even use gallons.

Further, it doesnt allow for higher chamber temperatures as ethanol combusts about 200* cooler than gasoline. Again, the "higher octane" isnt in play here.

It does allow for more advanced timing and higher compression before pre-ignition occurs, but thats due to other properties and not "higher octane".

Ethanol is also a renewable and green energy source. It only releases pollutants that the physical plants took in when they were growing. And, you just grow more stuff for more fuel

That is why the fuel pump seal on my car went when I switched to E85, that is why I had to switch to stainless fuel lines, we won't even go into the exhaust piping before the cat and the cat itself that pretty much rotted the old one and a newer one because I thought the previous cat may have been on the way out. As for I may have mis-stated but to control higher chamber temps to control detonation and pre-ignition alcohol is used to "quench" the chamber sometimes it is used in the fuel sometimes it is used in a separately plumbed system. It has its benefits but as I stated saying ethanol is green is not being 100% correct if you only can make up for 90% of the energy used to make it, it is a less "green" alternative since you are not offsetting the carbon that is being used which is the whole point of going green. For it to be green it need to be a minimum 1.01 to 1 right now it is about .9 to 1 it is carbon mitigating fuel but is not a complete offset of the carbon used to make it.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

I have read that my E85 capable 2011 F150 will run stronger on E85 but will get much worse economy. Haven't tested that yet myself.

it will...thats the only downfall of ethanol, is people dont think that it being 30% cheaper, that it should give 30% less mileage. Which is what it does.

Once you realize your costs are the same, but you just fill up more often, then you quit worrying about it.

 

[65fastback2plus2]

That is why the fuel pump seal on my car went when I switched to E85, that is why I had to switch to stainless fuel lines, we won't even go into the exhaust piping before the cat and the cat itself that pretty much rotted the old one and a newer one because I thought the previous cat may have been on the way out. As for I may have mis-stated but to control higher chamber temps to control detonation and pre-ignition alcohol is used to "quench" the chamber sometimes it is used in the fuel sometimes it is used in a separately plumbed system. It has its benefits but as I stated saying ethanol is green is not being 100% correct if you only can make up for 90% of the energy used to make it, it is a less "green" alternative since you are not offsetting the carbon that is being used which is the whole point of going green. For it to be green it need to be a minimum 1.01 to 1 right now it is about .9 to 1 it is carbon mitigating fuel but is not a complete offset of the carbon used to make it.

and ive seen e85 rated stuff have issues too. You're ASSUMING it was the e85 that caused the fuel pump seal and not improper installation, age, etc. etc.

Even the walbro gss342's I ran in my truck were "do not use with ethanol fuels" and ran them for thousands of miles for a long time and not one issue.

The only things Ive seen have an actual, consistent issue, is fuel solenoids on nitrous kits that arent e85 labeled.

 

[Vtwin]

It's a BMW. What do you expect? But you don't have to worry about fuel issues as long as you don't let your vehicle sit for 30 days or more without ever using it.

The BMW sits all winter up here in the NE. I filled the tank before I put it up to keep the tank from rusting on the inside.

I am religious about adding a stabilizer (sea foam is the best in my experience) to anything that is not being used up regularly.

This spring everything started right up without a hitch again. The only exception was the garden tiller which sat out through some unusually hard fall rains. Even though the fuel was stabilized, enough water got into the carb to cause problems. The fuel bowl looked like it was full of white jelly when I tore it apart.

 

[Rockport]

The BMW sits all winter up here in the NE. I filled the tank before I put it up to keep the tank from rusting on the inside.

I am religious about adding a stabilizer (sea foam is the best in my experience) to anything that is not being used up regularly.

This spring everything started right up without a hitch again. The only exception was the garden tiller which sat out through some unusually hard fall rains. Even though the fuel was stabilized, enough water got into the carb to cause problems. The fuel bowl looked like it was full of white jelly when I tore it apart.

That's a tough one. My initial thought would not be to fill the tank up before winter but actually drain it out completely. Maybe some real auto mechanics can pipe in.

 

[Longboysfan]

What I don't get is why not desalinazation plants on the pipe line. Run by sun light and wind power. Convert to regular water and ues it for whatever purpose.
Too much water oh. let farmers use it everywhere.
Nice USA project to make south west - in areas - fully green.
We waste enough $ on projects - why not a work America project.
It works - then out friends get the tech, which is not earth shattering, to do it right.