Bob McGinn: How the scouts view the NFL draft top 50

BlindFaith

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probably the 1000 more yards passing against the best defenses in college football.

Manziel is a slightly better version athletically to Wilson.
I'd rather have Wilson's character tho.

Manziel put up elite quickness and agility number for a running back much less a QB.
His short shuttle, 40 and 3 cone are insane.
Those are Vick numbers.

Hyperbole much? Elite quickness and agility for a running back?

Just compare the combine results and analysis for Wilson and Football.

Wilson is faster, better vert, much bigger hands, much stronger arm and very close in agility tests. Plus he's 10 times the leader/person Football is.

The only reason Wilson wasn't a top 10 pick was because of his height.

I don't understand all of the Football love. I really don't.
 

jterrell

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Hyperbole much? Elite quickness and agility for a running back?

Just compare the combine results and analysis for Wilson and Football.

Wilson is faster, better vert, much bigger hands, much stronger arm and very close in agility tests. Plus he's 10 times the leader/person Football is.

The only reason Wilson wasn't a top 10 pick was because of his height.

I don't understand all of the Football love. I really don't.

Manziel has the 2nd fastest 3 cone drill of any RB/QB this year.
Also 2nd fastest 20 yard shuttle.
That is elite quickness and agility by RB much less QB standards.

You also happen to see that on the field regularly.

I dislike TAMU. Manziel is a great player though, knucklehead and all.
His ability was far more impressive and demonstrated in college than was Wilson's who lost his starting QB job at NC State.

Wilson's success makes Manziel a better prospect but again it is clear Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson was... by far.

Feel free to not like that but none of those are opinions just facts.
 

MonsterD

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Manziel has the 2nd fastest 3 cone drill of any RB/QB this year.
Also 2nd fastest 20 yard shuttle.
That is elite quickness and agility by RB much less QB standards.

You also happen to see that on the field regularly.

I dislike TAMU. Manziel is a great player though, knucklehead and all.
His ability was far more impressive and demonstrated in college than was Wilson's who lost his starting QB job at NC State.

Wilson's success makes Manziel a better prospect but again it is clear Manziel is a better prospect than Wilson was... by far.

Feel free to not like that but none of those are opinions just facts.

I am sincerely shocked by what is in fact your opinion and the others.

I want to ask a legit question: Do you think Manziel is a superior passer to Luck coming out of college too?

BTW I am in no way disputing that Manziel is in fact a better runner than Wilson.
 

jterrell

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He had a lot more attempts, reason was his defense wasn't good.

I guess you guys see Manziel in the mold of Steve Young, I mean he was a running QB too, but I don't see the elite passing ability.

I am not sure I'd take Manziel at 16.
I am not 100% sure you can count on him as your team's QB long term and Dallas has so many holes it is tough to draft a guy for 2 or 3 years from now.

All that being said, people are generally just being lazy with regards to Russell Wilson.
Wilson was considered a bit of a reach in round 3 for Seattle.
He was a great player for Wisconsin in a very balanced offense.
That was also in a down B1G.

Combine numbers:
3 cone: Wilson 6.97, Manziel 6.75
20 shuttle: Wilson 4.09, Manziel 4.03

Those are marked edges in quickness and agility to Manziel.
Wilson has better explosive numbers.
Higher vert, broad jump,

Collegiately, tho as a career it isn't even comparable.

This is the write up from the NFL.com combine page for each:
Wilson:
Analysis
Strengths
Wilson is an accurate passer. He is a very mechanical quarterback who is consistent in his drop step and thoroughly understands how to move within the pocket and evade when the pocket collapses. He is an athlete and can torque his body to make any sort of throw on the run, and is accurate in this setting. He is a born signal caller who shows command of the offense. He has the arm strength to make the deep throws and the touch to put it on a receiver in stride. He is effective when scrambling and is a classic play extender.
Weaknesses
Wilson's height will be his biggest inhibitor at the next level and the largest reason for his late-round value. It remains to be seen if he can throw effectively from the pocket at the next level.

Manziel:
Analysis
Strengths
Has very big hands and grips the ball well on the move. Dynamic athlete. Exceptional game-day competitor -- rises to the occasion. Has a passion for the game. Played on the biggest of stages and revels in having his back against the wall. Stepped up against a national-championship Alabama defense in 2012 and has proven he can command come-from-behind victories, as he capped his career in the Chick-fil-A bowl vs. Duke by overcoming a 21-point halftime deficit. Sufficient timing, ball placement and accuracy (68.9 percent career passing percentage). Terrific scrambling ability. Reverse spins and buys time in the pocket while continuing to scan the field -- can still set his feet, alter his throwing motion and manipulate his arm and throwing platform. Houdini-like escapability (uses subtle, nifty sidestep moves) and improvisional ability in the pocket to pull a rabbit out of his hat and create magic. Has peripheral, wide-eyed running vision (sometimes seems like he has eyes in back of his head) and a very good feel for spacing. Carries the ball with a fearless confidence that he will find a way to create and usually gains positive yardage on broken plays when he appears trapped. Is mentally and physically tough -- will pop back up from hard collisions and respond to a challenge. Record-setting and award-winning two-year production. Has a knack for sustaining drives and possesses playmaking ability to create on third downs and in critical situations to keep the sticks moving.
Weaknesses
Has an unorthodox body type with marginal height, rounded shoulders, an underdeveloped body and very big feet that almost look clumsy. Will need to learn to do a better job protecting his body and sliding. Feels pocket ghosts and often takes off running at the second flash of coverage. Undisciplined -- plays his own offense and presses to make plays. Cannot see over the pocket easily and almost never steps up into it, creating extra difficulties for OL coaches to coordinate blocking schemes and for offensive linemen to anticipate where the pocket will be. Dances around the pocket too much and creates needless sacks rolling into protection when the pocket is clean. Has not worked from under center, and footwork and set-up will require refinement. Often throws the ball up in the air and relies on big receivers to adjust to it and make plays, highly benefiting from the playmaking ability of Mike Evans. Tends to overshoot the deep ball and throw off his back foot, leading to some underthrows (too many dirtballs on the move) and diminished accuracy. Needlessly pats the ball when he scans the field. Could stand to do a better job carrying out play-action fakes. Has not developed a reputation as a worker or for doing the extras. Suspect intangibles -- not a leader by example or known to inspire by his words. Carries a sense of entitlement and prima-donna arrogance seeking out the bright lights of Hollywood. Is known to party too much and is drawn to all the trappings of the game. Lacks ideal starting experience (only two years), operated a non-traditional offense and has a lot to learn.
Bottom Line
A very unique, run-around, ad-lib, sandlot-style quarterback who consistently won games playing a brand of fast-paced, jailbreak football that often goes off script and can be difficult both to game plan with and against. Is most comfortable on the move outside the pocket where he can find open throwing lanes and see the field and will command mush rush and extra spy defenders. Has defied the odds and proven to be a great college-system quarterback, but still must prove he is willing to work to be great, adjust his hard-partying, Hollywood lifestyle and be able to inspire his teammates by more than his playmaking ability. Overall character, leadership ability and work habits will define his NFL career. Rare competitiveness and third-down efficiency could carry him a long way, yet he will be challenged to avoid a Ryan Leaf-like, crash-and-burn scenario if he does not settle down and mature. A high-risk, high-reward pick, Manziel stands to benefit from entering the NFL at a time when moving pockets are trending.
 

jterrell

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I am sincerely shocked by what is in fact your opinion and the others.

I want to ask a legit question: Do you think Manziel is a superior passer to Luck coming out of college too?

BTW I am in no way disputing that Manziel is in fact a better runner than Wilson.

Did Luck get beat out in college too?
Just asking.
 

MonsterD

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Did Luck get beat out in college too?
Just asking.

People used the height excuse, I am sure there was a prejudice with Wilson early on. What my main thing is that people here lambasted someone like Griffin III and now those same people love Johnny football, I think it is really messed up.
 

jterrell

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People used the height excuse, I am sure there was a prejudice with Wilson early on. What my main thing is that people here lambasted someone like Griffin III and now those same people love Johnny football, I think it is really messed up.

Not sure what all the arguments really are.
Again I am just focusing on fact here and we are talking about these guys as prospects out of college.

I loved RG3 and wish him nothing but success except when he plays Dallas.

RG3 was CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY a better prospect than Wilson.
A distinction Manziel shares.

Wilson has obviously been a very good NFL QB (and winning a Super Bowl is something neither guy is "likely" to do) but he is also one of the lowest rated starters on that football team.
That team doesn't ask him to be special. It's led by the defense and a balanced attack.
Nonetheless what he is now is awesome. No college prospect is awesome yet.

Wilson is a really good, young QB.
And his success is probably the largest reason Seattle can win the way they do.
He is an excellent system fit for that offense and gets paid nearly nothing at a position that averages about 10m per starter.
Guy makes like 20% of Kyle Orton money....
That's the essence of value.

But again we were talking college...
Manziel threw for over 8000 yards in 2 years of the SEC West.
He also rushed for over 2000 yards and accounted for something otherworldly like 80 total TDs.
The only player close to that in the last decade of the SEC is Cam Newton who would still come up way short on the passing yards ledger.
Manziel easily won the Heisman.
 

MonsterD

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Not sure what all the arguments really are.
Again I am just focusing on fact here and we are talking about these guys as prospects out of college.

I loved RG3 and wish him nothing but success except when he plays Dallas.

RG3 was CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY a better prospect than Wilson.
A distinction Manziel shares.

Wilson has obviously been a very good NFL QB (and winning a Super Bowl is something neither guy is "likely" to do) but he is also one of the lowest rated starters on that football team.
That team doesn't ask him to be special. It's led by the defense and a balanced attack.
Nonetheless what he is now is awesome. No college prospect is awesome yet.

Wilson is a really good, young QB.
And his success is probably the largest reason Seattle can win the way they do.
He is an excellent system fit for that offense and gets paid nearly nothing at a position that averages about 10m per starter.
Guy makes like 20% of Kyle Orton money....
That's the essence of value.

But again we were talking college...
Manziel threw for over 8000 yards in 2 years of the SEC West.
He also rushed for over 2000 yards and accounted for something otherworldly like 80 total TDs.
The only player close to that in the last decade of the SEC is Cam Newton who would still come up way short on the passing yards ledger.
Manziel easily won the Heisman.

You know if Manziel can get away with what he did in college in the NFL, then I am wrong. I was wrong about Newton because I thought he would never be able to pass without causing a lot of T.O.'s so who knows.
 
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