BP vs WP

LittleBoyBlue

Redvolution
Messages
35,766
Reaction score
8,411
khiladi;1832666 said:
This guy threw 3 picks, but he didn't care. Each pick, he went marching down the field again. Those picks were clearly a result of mis-reads, which were a result of not getting on the field enough.

"clearly a result of misreads" ?

One was tipped
One was thrown to a spot where I thought it was discussed that Crayton didnt run the route properly....

Not harping on what you said... its history... but I dont think what you wrote is correct
 

LittleBoyBlue

Redvolution
Messages
35,766
Reaction score
8,411
khiladi;1832709 said:
Nice post. And I believe the reason he even selected Fasano is because he kind of looks like Mark Bavaro... :laugh2:

Wasnt Parcells picking TE's to protect Bledsoe because Bill couldnt get the Oline right?
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,543
Reaction score
36,677
YoMick;1832715 said:
"clearly a result of misreads" ?

One was tipped
One was thrown to a spot where I thought it was discussed that Crayton didnt run the route properly....

Not harping on what you said... its history... but I dont think what you wrote is correct

Point taken. I couldn't remember the other two, but I do remember the one thrown to Crayton. That could have been either or. As far as the tip, I may vaguely recall it now. But the point, and you obviously agree, is this guy didn't sulk or become shell-shocked. He just kept moving the ball. And this is something you really can't teach, so the argument that he needed 4 years to develop and Parcells' was taking his time to develop Romo, I just don't buy, especially considering parcell's history...
 

randy932

Active Member
Messages
559
Reaction score
55
Angus;1832684 said:
I don't think Parcells deserves the credit he is given for draft selections. The success he has had in Dallas has been attributable to Jeff Ireland and Jerry Jones for the most part, I believe.

As I understand it, in 2003 he didn't want to draft Newman (but Jones did) and skipped Witten in favor of Al Johnson. Only luck enabled Witten to be selected later.

2004 was the trade year for buffalo's 2005 number one. Julius Jones is the only player selected on the first day still on the team. I believe the seventh round was turned over to Ireland, and he chose Nathan Jones, Patrick Crayton, and Jacques Reeves. Not Parcells.

In 2005 Parcells wanted to draft Spears first instead of Ware. If Jones and Ireland had not had their way, Ware would be in San Diego. and I think Ireland was the major voice in selecting Burnett, Barber, Canty, Beriault, and Ratliff.

In 2006, I think Parcells was responsible for the selections of Carpenter and Fasano, but Ireland brought him and Jones around to Hatcher, Watkins, and McQuistan.

This year, when Parcells was gone, even though Dallas traded its number one to Cleveland, it had eight selections and all of them made the team and are still on it (except Ball made the team originally but was was put on the practice squad when Oglesby was added; he is on the team again and Deon Anderson is on IR).

I think Parcells gets far too much credit for the makeup of this Dallas team, not even considering the recent free agent additions.

:)

Amen. Dead on correct, all counts.
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,543
Reaction score
36,677
YoMick;1832717 said:
Wasnt Parcells picking TE's to protect Bledsoe because Bill couldnt get the Oline right?

I think that is part of it, but it all goes back to his philosophy of the QB being a bus-driver and slowing the game down. You bring in an extra tight-end to block, and you control the line of scrimmage.

The thing is, when Romo came in, Witten started catching balls regularly. Was that a change in the approach of the offense, or was it simply that Romo was finding the open man, unlike the statue Bledsoe? I favor the latter, because Bill runs a ball-controlled offense. Hell, look at the Seattle game last year.
 

chinch

No Quarter
Messages
3,596
Reaction score
0
D-TownRadio;1832246 said:
Okay there has been sooo much talk over who deserves credit for this team. First and foremost how about we give credit to the guys out there busting their arses week in and week out. Then we look at the key factors of this team Romo and Owens who Bill wanted nothing to do with either of them.

Now I am not going to sit here and rip billy boy I just think he would make a better GM then head coach. I think you let him help with the draft and FA but keep him away from the play calling and your okay. Oh and also teach him to take chances on players like T.O.

You can bash me for thinking this way but I just feel the game has passed him by but I will say he still has a good eye for talent.
this is pretty much the consensus from observers without an axe to grind

it's not like tuna wanted nothing to do with romo. to show you the inner conflict he had just consider he inserted him at HALFTIME losing a winnable DIVISION game. sure he should have started the season or at least benched drew game 2 but still consider the scenario.
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,543
Reaction score
36,677
randy932;1832737 said:
Amen. Dead on correct, all counts.

That was a damn good post in very short words and really, a nail in the coffin type if 100 percent accurate...
 

chinch

No Quarter
Messages
3,596
Reaction score
0
major problem in your tirade.

um.... hello... tuna gave jeff power and took it from jerruh's dope lacewell. jeff was tuna's guy.

you want to give the troops & officers credit while discrediting the general for asembling them.

quite distasteful

(plus you can cheery pick info on every teams draft)


Angus;1832684 said:
I don't think Parcells deserves the credit he is given for draft selections. The success he has had in Dallas has been attributable to Jeff Ireland and Jerry Jones for the most part, I believe.

As I understand it, in 2003 he didn't want to draft Newman (but Jones did) and skipped Witten in favor of Al Johnson. Only luck enabled Witten to be selected later.

2004 was the trade year for buffalo's 2005 number one. Julius Jones is the only player selected on the first day still on the team. I believe the seventh round was turned over to Ireland, and he chose Nathan Jones, Patrick Crayton, and Jacques Reeves. Not Parcells.

In 2005 Parcells wanted to draft Spears first instead of Ware. If Jones and Ireland had not had their way, Ware would be in San Diego. and I think Ireland was the major voice in selecting Burnett, Barber, Canty, Beriault, and Ratliff.

In 2006, I think Parcells was responsible for the selections of Carpenter and Fasano, but Ireland brought him and Jones around to Hatcher, Watkins, and McQuistan.

This year, when Parcells was gone, even though Dallas traded its number one to Cleveland, it had eight selections and all of them made the team and are still on it (except Ball made the team originally but was was put on the practice squad when Oglesby was added; he is on the team again and Deon Anderson is on IR).

I think Parcells gets far too much credit for the makeup of this Dallas team, not even considering the recent free agent additions.

:)
 

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
chinch;1832760 said:
major problem in your tirade.

um.... hello... tuna gave jeff power and took it from jerruh's dope lacewell. jeff was tuna's guy.

you want to give the troops & officers credit while discrediting the general for asembling them.

quite distasteful

(plus you can cheery pick info on every teams draft)

Lacewell was the one who lured Ireland to the organization, telling Jones he was "someone who could someday run this whole show." Jones and Parcells -- who arrived in 2003, about the time Lacewell began planning his retirement -- grew comfortable enough with him to share Lacewell's opinion.

So, what does he look for?

"Big, fast, strong, smart players," he said, adding that he stresses character, too. "I want guys smart enough to not just handle the football side of it, but the pressures of being a professional athlete."

The Cowboys have the 11th and 20th picks in the draft and they're without a third-rounder. They're also coming off a 6-10 season and are considering changing defenses from a 4-3 to a 3-4. That leaves plenty of room for debate as the front office sets its draft board.

"We toss things around and sometimes it might be more than tossing," he said. "We debate things pretty strongly. It's a good situation for everybody to have all their feelings out on the table. Obviously it's an objective atmosphere out there and no feelings are being hurt.

"But the opportunity to get the information on the table is a key working for Bill and for Jerry. It's a great opportunity."

Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press

This story is from ESPN.com's automated news wire. Wire index
 

djtavo

Jesus is Lord
Messages
1,019
Reaction score
0
Bill Parcels gets credit for building the team we all know that, but in my opinion he gets no credit on what the team has accomplish this season, reason is because he quit on the team.
Look at last years San Diego Chargers 14-2 under Coach Schottenheimer, 8-5 this year under Coach Turner. Turner has the same team and not a very good season.
Wade Philips has done an incredible job with this team, just because you have all the pieces together doesn't make you a successful team.
[SIZE=-1]Remember what Parcells said: "You are what your record is."
Bill [/SIZE]9-7 last year - Wade 12-1 this year.
 

chinch

No Quarter
Messages
3,596
Reaction score
0
with all due respect to the AP fluff piece again Ireland was groomed by Tuna.

imagine ireleands rep here if Jerruh and lacewell were in charge. jeez.

plus lacewell was pushed out the door by tuna, he wasn't going to retire from his plush confines.

alot of generally poor performers (ie. lacewell and jj tandem) make a good call now and again.

you guys need to drop the tuna hate. you can be glad he's gone while still being thankful to his contributions.

prior to Tuna, we have NOT HAD A COACH CONTRIBUTE positively around here since jimmuh for those checking.

wade seems to be another contributor which is great for cowboy fans.


Doomsday101;1832806 said:
Lacewell was the one who lured Ireland to the organization, telling Jones he was "someone who could someday run this whole show." Jones and Parcells -- who arrived in 2003, about the time Lacewell began planning his retirement -- grew comfortable enough with him to share Lacewell's opinion.

So, what does he look for?

"Big, fast, strong, smart players," he said, adding that he stresses character, too. "I want guys smart enough to not just handle the football side of it, but the pressures of being a professional athlete."

The Cowboys have the 11th and 20th picks in the draft and they're without a third-rounder. They're also coming off a 6-10 season and are considering changing defenses from a 4-3 to a 3-4. That leaves plenty of room for debate as the front office sets its draft board.

"We toss things around and sometimes it might be more than tossing," he said. "We debate things pretty strongly. It's a good situation for everybody to have all their feelings out on the table. Obviously it's an objective atmosphere out there and no feelings are being hurt.

"But the opportunity to get the information on the table is a key working for Bill and for Jerry. It's a great opportunity."

Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press

This story is from ESPN.com's automated news wire. Wire index
 

Dodger12

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,142
Reaction score
3,532
khiladi;1832657 said:
Actually, he was projected to go in the 5th, and when he was still there in the 6th, Jeff Ireland says, Sean Payton was almost jumping on the table telling us to draft him. Coincidentally, Payton didn't just happen to stumble upon Romo. Romo played at Payton's alma mater, so Payton knew very well the potential of this kid.

And as far as your comment regarding veteran QBs and Parcells, I agree. Bill was forced into playing Romo, because his last two attempts at QB sucked so bad, and he was literally losing the team.

Then let me ask you this...why didn't the Cowboys draft Romo in the 6th? Jerry's the GM and Jeff Ireland is a genius (no slight intended, I'm tickled we have him), why not draft such a telent with a 6th round pick?

How was Bill "forced" into playing Romo but he wasn't forced into drafting him? But I see your logic, Parcells was losing the team so by playing an undrafted FA, who never started a regular season game, was going to bring the team back. Got it..........
 

viman96

Thread Killer
Messages
21,492
Reaction score
22,568
We always read or hear about how this is BP's team because he built it. I am not sure if the media realize they are actually giving him a backhanded complement.

Yes he built this team with a lot of help. There are plenty of people still on staff that assisted or even pointed out players for BP to draft, pickup in FA and even cut.

As for the backhanded complement, the media has to realize there is more to coaching then buying some "groceries". Yes he deserves credit (along with the others that help build this team) but he also should be blamed for not delivering better results.

Of course the media only want to sell one side of the story.

Assuming we would have the exact same team and previous results as we do now, how do you think the story would have been written or told (read sold) in the media if Bill had replaced Wade?
 

Dodger12

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,142
Reaction score
3,532
Angus;1832684 said:
I don't think Parcells deserves the credit he is given for draft selections. The success he has had in Dallas has been attributable to Jeff Ireland and Jerry Jones for the most part, I believe.

As I understand it, in 2003 he didn't want to draft Newman (but Jones did) and skipped Witten in favor of Al Johnson. Only luck enabled Witten to be selected later.

2004 was the trade year for buffalo's 2005 number one. Julius Jones is the only player selected on the first day still on the team. I believe the seventh round was turned over to Ireland, and he chose Nathan Jones, Patrick Crayton, and Jacques Reeves. Not Parcells.

In 2005 Parcells wanted to draft Spears first instead of Ware. If Jones and Ireland had not had their way, Ware would be in San Diego. and I think Ireland was the major voice in selecting Burnett, Barber, Canty, Beriault, and Ratliff.

In 2006, I think Parcells was responsible for the selections of Carpenter and Fasano, but Ireland brought him and Jones around to Hatcher, Watkins, and McQuistan.

This year, when Parcells was gone, even though Dallas traded its number one to Cleveland, it had eight selections and all of them made the team and are still on it (except Ball made the team originally but was was put on the practice squad when Oglesby was added; he is on the team again and Deon Anderson is on IR).

I think Parcells gets far too much credit for the makeup of this Dallas team, not even considering the recent free agent additions.

:)

I see...I see...so Parcells was over ruled on Spears but not on Fasano and Carpenter, even though we had a budding star TE already in place in Witten. And he didn't want Newman and was over ruled but was able to skip on Witten....funny how that works when you get a guy you supposedely don't want (Newman) but are able to skip on a guy the others want (Witten).

Of couse, you "think" the latter part of the 2005 draft was turned over to Ireland who, by the way, couldn't over rule BP on Fasano and (later) Carpenter, but could on Newman (or would that be JJ/Lacewell) and Ware. Ireland then chose Nathan Jones, Patrick Crayton, and Jacques Reeves. Not Parcells. That would be because BP had no say in the first, did in the second, but not in the 7th....got ya.

Then, of course, "you think" in 2006 that BP was responsible for Carp and Fasano but "Ireland brought him and Jones around to Hatcher, Watkins, and McQuistan". A roomful of scouts, an Owner/GM, VP, and personnel guy couldn't over rule him on the "questionable" picks in the 1st and 2nd round but darn if they didn't take charge of the second day. Brilliant move to save the franchise!!!

Oh, and Witten being available in the 3rd round was "luck" because they didn't over rule BP on Al Johnson, even though they over ruled BP on every other major selection (according to you). But Ireland/Jones/Scouts/Crystal Ball, etc., over ruled BP who wanted Spears because they knew he'd be there with our second pick in the first round but couldn't forsee that Witten would be available with our 3rd because, of course, that was luck that he fell.

Good thinking...............
 

cml750

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,753
Reaction score
3,964
I think Bill gets way too much credit for building the team. When he took over we were just coming out of "salary cap hell". We had given up 2 #1 picks for Joey Galloway just a couple of years before also. We were bottomed out and the only way to go was up. Big Bill whiffed on as many players that he hit on. All of his offensive line choices have been bust (at least while they were with us). As stated before the credit for signing Romo goes to S. Payton. I believe Bill kept Romo on the bench way too long(all who would argue this should realize a QB either has IT or doesn't have IT and Romo definitely has IT). He did do well in picking Ware, Newman, Witten, Crayton, and MBIII. He whiffed on Spears, Carpenter, and dare I say J. Jones. Fasano while a decent player was a complete waste in the second. If you have to give credit to a past coach for our current success then I would give to Payton for pushing them to get Romo. It's all about the QB, and we have one now! BTW, I think Wade is doing a hell of a job and that we would have a worse record if BP was still here!:starspin
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,543
Reaction score
36,677
Dodger12;1832832 said:
Then let me ask you this...why didn't the Cowboys draft Romo in the 6th? Jerry's the GM and Jeff Ireland is a genius (no slight intended, I'm tickled we have him), why not draft such a telent with a 6th round pick?

How was Bill "forced" into playing Romo but he wasn't forced into drafting him? But I see your logic, Parcells was losing the team so by playing an undrafted FA, who never started a regular season game, was going to bring the team back. Got it..........

Simple.. Because they thought they could get a better player. Just like Parcells, JJ and Jeff Ireland had no idea about him. The only one that really did was Sean Payton, and it was because of him that Romo was here. That is why I said the DC got extremely LUCKY with Romo... Look, Romo is a 1 and a million player, whose rise to success is really unprecedented. There is no blueprint on it. Bill shouldn't get credit for it, just as Jerry shouldn't. Thank Sean Payton partly, and the heavens for aligning right....

Bill Parcells was forced into playing Romo, because he had already went through the issue of not benching his guy, Vinny testaverde, despite not being in the playoff hunt versus playing people that could develop. Bledsoe was throwing duds all day, everyday, and the team was even criticizing him. Parcells couldn't keep Bledsoe in without being blasted by the media, and probably by the organization itself.
 

dogunwo

Franchise Tagged
Messages
10,302
Reaction score
5,687
God bless. Can we all just leave this topic alone. This has almost been beat to death like the Roy threads.
 

Doomsday101

Well-Known Member
Messages
107,762
Reaction score
39,034
chinch;1832824 said:
with all due respect to the AP fluff piece again Ireland was groomed by Tuna.

imagine ireleands rep here if Jerruh and lacewell were in charge. jeez.

plus lacewell was pushed out the door by tuna, he wasn't going to retire from his plush confines.

alot of generally poor performers (ie. lacewell and jj tandem) make a good call now and again.

you guys need to drop the tuna hate. you can be glad he's gone while still being thankful to his contributions.

prior to Tuna, we have NOT HAD A COACH CONTRIBUTE positively around here since jimmuh for those checking.

wade seems to be another contributor which is great for cowboy fans.

BP did not bring in lacewell I know it sounds good and fits your argument but BP was not the one who brought in Ireland.

IRVING, Texas -- As a kid, Jeff Ireland often sat in a dark room with his grandfather, staring at images of football players projected on a wall. Former NFL running back-turned-scout Jim Parmer spent countless hours explaining what they were watching and shared some insights on how to tell the good ones from the great ones.

Ireland is 34 now, and he's been getting paid to make those evaluations for more than a decade. Next weekend, he'll be in the Dallas Cowboys' draft room, sharing his thoughts with Jerry Jones and Bill Parcells while carrying the title of vice president of college and pro scouting.

Ireland was being groomed for the job practically since joining the organization four years ago. The promotion was so widely understood since predecessor Larry Lacewell retired in January that Jones called the formal announcement Thursday "probably the worst-kept secret in the organization."

"It's no accident that Jeff has the best part of his career ahead of him in terms of his age and his experience," Jones said. "It's very important to me and this organization that we select someone that we could look to work with for a long time. His skills in evaluating football players is beyond any question as far as I'm concerned."

Ireland has been around football most of his life, spending most of his adolescent summers as a ball boy during training camp for the Chicago Bears, the team Parmer scouted for. His stepfather is E.J. Holub, a former star at Texas Tech with the Kansas City Chiefs.

"I've got a football family," Ireland said. "What I know is football."

Ireland was a kicker for Baylor, then spent two years as the special teams coach at North Texas before getting into scouting with the NFL combine from 1994-96. That led to four seasons as an area scout for the Chiefs, the Cowboys hired him in 2001 to be a national scout.

Lacewell was the one who lured Ireland to the organization, telling Jones he was "someone who could someday run this whole show." Jones and Parcells -- who arrived in 2003, about the time Lacewell began planning his retirement -- grew comfortable enough with him to share Lacewell's opinion.

So, what does he look for?

"Big, fast, strong, smart players," he said, adding that he stresses character, too. "I want guys smart enough to not just handle the football side of it, but the pressures of being a professional athlete."

The Cowboys have the 11th and 20th picks in the draft and they're without a third-rounder. They're also coming off a 6-10 season and are considering changing defenses from a 4-3 to a 3-4. That leaves plenty of room for debate as the front office sets its draft board.

"We toss things around and sometimes it might be more than tossing," he said. "We debate things pretty strongly. It's a good situation for everybody to have all their feelings out on the table. Obviously it's an objective atmosphere out there and no feelings are being hurt.

"But the opportunity to get the information on the table is a key working for Bill and for Jerry. It's a great opportunity."

Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press

This story is from ESPN.com's automated news wire. Wire index


As you see this was dated back to 2005 and Ireland had already been with the organizations for 4 years which would have been 2001 BP did not hire in until 2003.
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,543
Reaction score
36,677
I see...I see...so Parcells was over ruled on Spears but not on Fasano and Carpenter, even though we had a budding star TE already in place in Witten. And he didn't want Newman and was over ruled but was able to skip on Witten....funny how that works when you get a guy you supposedely don't want (Newman) but are able to skip on a guy the others want (Witten).

You mean it depends on the positioning in the draft? You do realize over-ruling on the first pick in the draft at number 5 is a lot different than over-ruling on a second or third rounder.
 

khiladi

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,543
Reaction score
36,677
Doomsday101;1832913 said:
As you see this was dated back to 2005 and Ireland had already been with the organizations for 4 years which would have been 2001 BP did not hire in until 2003.

:bow:
 
Top