Brady is washed up

[Pape]

What other metric would you suggest using when evaluating a head coach? Net passing yards per attempt?

I certainly do what you are doing, which is nonsense.

You want to evaluate a coach? Wait. The answers will come in time.

and using this season is extremely disingenuous as there were more difficulties this off season than there ever has been in the past. You want to see how Belichick does without Brady? Ok... First define what you consider a successful rebuild... Does he have to make the super bowl or win one without brady? How long does he have to do it? Let him rebuild the team. See if he can field a competitive team. The Patriots are obviously in a rebuilding phase... wait and see what BB and co can come up with.

Or dont, continue ranting away...

 

[Ghost12]

I certainly do what you are doing, which is nonsense.

You want to evaluate a coach? Wait. The answers will come in time.

and using this season is extremely disingenuous as there were more difficulties this off season than there ever has been in the past. You want to see how Belichick does without Brady? Ok... First define what you consider a successful rebuild... Does he have to make the super bowl or win one without brady? How long does he have to do it? Let him rebuild the team. See if he can field a competitive team. The Patriots are obviously in a rebuilding phase... wait and see what BB and co can come up with.

Or dont, continue ranting away...

I guess you are another one of those easily triggered by facts....

Cleveland in the 5 years before Belichick arrived: 44-34-1, 3 CCG appearances
Cleveland in the 5 years Belichick was there: 36-44, 1 playoff victory

 

[Pape]

I guess you are another one of those easily triggered by facts....

Cleveland in the 5 years before Belichick arrived: 44-34-1, 3 CCG appearances
Cleveland in the 5 years Belichick was there: 36-44, 1 playoff victory

Excuse me? Easily triggered? I'm not the one acting like a petulant child here ... Grow up...

Bill Belichick took over a 3-13 team in Cleveland, and within three years had them at 11-5 ...

and lets not forget you conveniently omit the fact that Cleveland was BB's first go around as a head coach...

but hey lets not let facts get in the way of your specious arguments and juvenile analysis

you are just another one of those fake Patriot fans ...

 

[Ghost12]

Excuse me? Easily triggered? I'm not the one acting like a petulant child here ... Grow up...

I am stating facts and stats. You are the one responding with personal attacks and insults.

You've clearly been triggered (and quite easily)

Bill Belichick took over a 3-13 team in Cleveland, and within three years had them at 11-5 ...

Cleveland in the 5 years before Belichick arrived: 44-34-1, 3 CCG appearances
Cleveland in the 5 years Belichick was there: 36-44, 1 playoff victory

and lets not forget you conveniently omit the fact that Cleveland was BB's first go around as a head coach...

OK, let's see how he has done in his 2nd go-round in NE - but without Brady starting... hmmmm.... he's 21-24 without a single playoff appearance.... ouch

FACT: You can take away any one season from Belichick's coaching record, and he is still sub-.500 without Brady.

 

[Pape]

I am stating facts and stats. You are the one responding with personal attacks and insults.

You've clearly been triggered (and quite easily)

Cleveland in the 5 years before Belichick arrived: 44-34-1, 3 CCG appearances
Cleveland in the 5 years Belichick was there: 36-44, 1 playoff victory
OK, let's see how he has done in his 2nd go-round in NE - but without Brady starting... hmmmm.... he's 21-24 without a single playoff appearance.... ouch

FACT: You can take away any one season from Belichick's coaching record, and he is still sub-.500 without Brady.

Why are you continually bringing Cleveland into this? You think that it makes your argument stronger? Its having the opposite effect for a two fold reason... you don't bother to differentiate the 5 years prior to Belichicks arrival in Cleveland into the Marty Schottenheimer (a former Patriot player!) years and the Bud Carson years ... That matters...

Its also quite apparent you lack the historical league-wide perspective and have a very shallow understanding of the history of the NFL (ie you are unable to differentiate different eras and fail to grasp why that matters)

When Belichick started in Cleveland it was a completely different game... Free agency as you know it was not in existence... Plan B free agency was the name of the game... thru a lawsuit, multiple players including Garin Veris (a former a New England Patriot which I am 100% sure you did not know) and others challenged the wholly unfair Plan B in court... ultimately the players won... Free agency in earnest did not begin in the NFL until the 1994 season... Which coincidentally coincided with the advent of the salary cap... So contextually, the NFL was a different world in the early 1990's...

I will wait and see how Belichick does... and I don't need to take a year away from Belichick record... The fact of the matter is he coached the majority of his career as a head coach with Tom Brady... What the team has achieved, they achieved together... I don't fall into the trap that it is one person vs the other... I have steadfastly said it was both of them, that they are the greatest Head Coach/Quarterback tandems in the history of the NFL...

So, really, you think I'm triggered? Nah man, not in the slightest... I wont ever knock Brady, and will not knock Belichick either... I will however, knock idiots like you who want to argue about it instead of enjoying the successes we have had for two decades...

 

[Ghost12]

Why are you continually bringing Cleveland into this?

Are you really this dense? The subject at hand is how good of a head coach Belichick is without Brady. So yeah his 5 years in Cleveland are a huge component of that. In fact, even after 20+ years in NE, he still has more “without Brady” games in his Cleveland job than his NE job.

You think that it makes your argument stronger?

Uh, showing what he did in 5 years as a HC is a relevant argument. I’m not surprised you’re too stupid to understand that simple logic. All the rest of what you have is the same tired old excuses for why he has had zero success without Brady.

Talking to you is like talking to a triggered 6 year old throwing a temper tantrum. So keep it up, little boy.

 

[joseephuss]

I think Belichick getting to the playoffs and winning a playoff game with Vinny Testeverde as his QB shows just how good of a coach he is.

 

[LACowboysFan1]

I think Belichick getting to the playoffs and winning a playoff game with Vinny Testeverde as his QB shows just how good of a coach he is.

Or going 10-5 with Matt Cassell...

 

[Kevinicus]

Not true. And as I pointed out, the NFLN broadcast of Titans-Colts last night did that exact thing: They compared the first 9 weeks of this year to the first 9 weeks of last year.
Well gee, let's see... Belichick was in Cleveland 5 years. According to you, we should take the 5 year period before he arrived as the comparison set? After all, using data sets of different sizes is "absurd", right?

Cleveland in the 5 years before Belichick arrived: 44-34-1, 3 CCG appearances
Cleveland in the 5 years Belichick was there: 36-44, 1 playoff victory

Looks like the team Belichick inherited wasn't all that bad, were they? BTW, the Patriots are 3-5 in the first 8 games of 2020 compared to 8-0 in the first 8 games of 2019.

Because 1 or 2 facepalms wasn't enough.

 

[Ghost12]

I think Belichick getting to the playoffs and winning a playoff game with Vinny Testeverde as his QB shows just how good of a coach he is.

People are misstating my comments, so let's be clear:

I never said Belichick wasn't a good head coach. In fact, I think he is a good head coach because winning Championships is hard. Many coaches have failed, even with tons of talent on their team. Belichick has proven that when he has the talent, he is capable of winning championships, and that is no small feat.

However, he has not had any success as an HC without Tom Brady starting. His record is quite mediocre in that regard. That's really an empirical statement of fact and cannot be intelligently disputed. All the cherry picking and excuse making does nothing to change that.

I am not saying he will never be successful without Brady or that it absolutely can't happen, I am just saying that it hasn't happened thus far in his (roughly) 8 years of experience as an HC under that condition.

The above is all fact, despite how much it triggers some.

 

[Ghost12]

Because 1 or 2 facepalms wasn't enough.

Um, you are the one who told us it was "abusrd" to compare data sets of 2 different sizes. Don't blame me for beating you over the head with your own logic.

"You are trying to compare unequal data sets. Two extremely different sample sizes. That is just absurd." - Kevinicus

 

[Pape]

Are you really this dense? The subject at hand is how good of a head coach Belichick is without Brady. So yeah his 5 years in Cleveland are a huge component of that. In fact, even after 20+ years in NE, he still has more “without Brady” games in his Cleveland job than his NE job.

Uh, showing what he did in 5 years as a HC is a relevant argument. I’m not surprised you’re too stupid to understand that simple logic. All the rest of what you have is the same tired old excuses for why he has had zero success without Brady.

Talking to you is like talking to a triggered 6 year old throwing a temper tantrum. So keep it up, little boy.

the only one triggered here is you ... this stuff is fun for me... I'm going to keep sticking my thumb in your eye when you bring up Cleveland... Its kinda like when people say Otto Graham won 7 nfl championships... Newp... They as wrong as you are in regards to BB's years in Cleveland...

Comparing what BB did in 5 years as HC/Cle to now might have be relevant had the league not completely and dramatically changed how they did business in the intervening years

Now, if one is willing to pay the price, a team can revamp a roster in the matter of one season thru the draft, cap management and free agency... prior to 1994, this was nearly impossible because teams dictated player movement... I'm sorry that you completely fail to understand the impact that has on roster building... Yet still, he retooled that team into a competitive roster...

Look at what he did accomplish there before painting his tenure with broad strokes of a brush... He built a competitive team... The season before BB took over, the Browns had a -234 point differential... If you don't understand point differential, that's pretty terrible... by the time 1994 came around, it was +136... its why your analysis, such as it is, is faulty... You don't know what might have been if Modell didn't pull the rug out from everyone and move to Baltimore... Either Do I...

I do know he built the Patriots, and a goodly part of their success is based on the institutional professionalism he brought to the team... I'm glad he's here in New England

 

[Ghost12]

the only one triggered here is you ... this stuff is fun for me... I'm going to keep sticking my thumb in your eye when you bring up Cleveland... Its kinda like when people say Otto Graham won 7 nfl championships... Newp... They as wrong as you are in regards to BB's years in Cleveland...

Comparing what BB did in 5 years as HC/Cle to now might have be relevant had the league not completely and dramatically changed how they did business in the intervening years

Excuses, cherry picking, excuses, cherry picking from the triggered little boy.

 

[Kevinicus]

Excuses, cherry picking, excuses, cherry picking from the triggered little boy.

Translation: Anything I don't like and that destroys my narrative is excuses and cherry picking.

You: Players don't matter, they're excuses. Tom Brady is all that matters. Cognitive dissonance.

 

[Ghost12]

Translation: Anything I don't like and that destroys my narrative is excuses and cherry picking.

I am looking at and presenting the whole picture. I am presenting a statistic which encompasses 100% of the data available (keeping in mind the subject matter at hand is BB's performance as an HC without Brady).

So yeah, anything which pares down a robust, comprehensive data set is cherry picking.

 

[Pape]

Excuses, cherry picking, excuses, cherry picking from the triggered little boy.

lmao... in other words, you have nothing...

I can tell you are getting frustrated... try to have at least a little patience... eventually the answers to the question at hand will be revealed... Unfortunately for you, it won't be answered immediately, after 8 games, and wont be answered this season... I know its not what you want to hear but at least you can try to use the time to educate yourself... try to learn what it takes to build a team, and how that might have differed in other eras... I doubt you will, but i hope you at least try ...

and I do wonder, so maybe you can answer honestly - did you ever hear of plan b free agency before yesterday?

 

[kskboys]

the only one triggered here is you ... this stuff is fun for me... I'm going to keep sticking my thumb in your eye when you bring up Cleveland... Its kinda like when people say Otto Graham won 7 nfl championships... Newp... They as wrong as you are in regards to BB's years in Cleveland...

Comparing what BB did in 5 years as HC/Cle to now might have be relevant had the league not completely and dramatically changed how they did business in the intervening years

Now, if one is willing to pay the price, a team can revamp a roster in the matter of one season thru the draft, cap management and free agency... prior to 1994, this was nearly impossible because teams dictated player movement... I'm sorry that you completely fail to understand the impact that has on roster building... Yet still, he retooled that team into a competitive roster...

Look at what he did accomplish there before painting his tenure with broad strokes of a brush... He built a competitive team... The season before BB took over, the Browns had a -234 point differential... If you don't understand point differential, that's pretty terrible... by the time 1994 came around, it was +136... its why your analysis, such as it is, is faulty... You don't know what might have been if Modell didn't pull the rug out from everyone and move to Baltimore... Either Do I...

I do know he built the Patriots, and a goodly part of their success is based on the institutional professionalism he brought to the team... I'm glad he's here in New England

Dude, quit being a child. Otto Graham won 4 championships in the AAFL and 3 in the NFL. There was no need for you to throw a barb out, one that is incorrect, BTW. 4 + 3 = 7. This isn't difficult.

 

[Pape]

Dude, quit being a child. Otto Graham won 4 championships in the AAFL and 3 in the NFL. There was no need for you to throw a barb out, one that is incorrect, BTW. 4 + 3 = 7. This isn't difficult.

its the AAFC, not the AAFL ... and i distinctly said "nfl", so back your *** up a bit bro

 

[Ghost12]

lmao... in other words, you have nothing...

*** are you talking about? I present the whole picture. You present nothing but excuses and cherry picking. And here's what I have:

Cleveland in the 5 years Belichick was there: 36-44, 1 playoff victory
New England with Belichick (but without Brady starting): 21-24, no playoff appearances

The man has a very mediocre record and absolutely no major success as an HC without Tom Brady starting. That's not even an opinion, it is an empirical statement of fact to anyone who looks at (and understands) the above numbers.

Will that change at anytime in the future? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But I'm just giving the facts based on where things stand right now. Clearly these facts trigger you, but they remain facts nonetheless (give or take updating the NE record every week as time passes)

 

[joseephuss]

*** are you talking about? I present the whole picture. You present nothing but excuses and cherry picking. And here's what I have:

Cleveland in the 5 years Belichick was there: 36-44, 1 playoff victory
New England with Belichick (but without Brady starting): 21-24, no playoff appearances

The man has a very mediocre record and absolutely no major success as an HC without Tom Brady starting. That's not even an opinion, it is an empirical statement of fact to anyone who looks at (and understands) the above numbers.

Will that change at anytime in the future? Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But I'm just giving the facts based on where things stand right now. Clearly these facts trigger you, but they remain facts nonetheless (give or take updating the NE record every week as time passes)

Empirical data is fine, but it doesn't tell the story without context. There is much more to tell when you delve deeper into the situations. There are legitimate reasons, not excuses as to why he had the record he did while in Cleveland. That he got a playoff victory with Vinny Testeverde is astounding to me. Not every coach was able to achieve that with Vinny. Of course he didn't have as much success without Brady as he did with him. Brady is one of the best ever. Both are great individually and when you put the two together and they become even greater. Situations matter. The situation is better in Tampa than in NE even if Tampa had not brought in Brady. If things were only based on empirical records, then what does that say about Wade Phillips or Jason Garrett. Both guys have better records(also without Brady) than the record Belichick has without Brady.