Video: Broaddus: There's a divide in the Cowboys war room about Surtain and Horn

[CowboyoWales]

You have to. You brought that DC in to install a system. He knows the type of players it takes to make it work. Scouts are looking at this holistically. There is a specific type of Corner needed to run this scheme. That might not be the best CB for a different scheme but it's the one that makes this scheme work.

Just draft the Oregon LT and be done with all of this already.

This is exactly what we were discussing yesterday. I agree it has to be the coaches as they're looking for the best player to fit their proposed scheme.

 

[JD_KaPow]

You have to. You brought that DC in to install a system. He knows the type of players it takes to make it work. Scouts are looking at this holistically. There is a specific type of Corner needed to run this scheme. That might not be the best CB for a different scheme but it's the one that makes this scheme work.

If your coaches aren't adaptable enough to find a way to use a top talent, I want new coaches.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The coach is the one ultimately defining the positional prototype for what works in his defense. The scouts have to be tasked with finding guys who meet those parameters. It doesn't make any sense to have a guy who, in effect, read the cliffs notes on a prospect, decide whether he is a better fit for their scheme than guys who have been scouting to the prototype provided by said coach for years. One would have more information to make the decision with. The other is operating from a deficit.

But if that's the case, then the scouts are at the disadvantage because they haven't been scouting for players that fit the new scheme. They have been scouting players who fit the old scheme. So it would actually seem to be an advantage to the Coaching Staff. They have been following the players who fit the scheme the entire time right?

Our Scouting department didn't have any idea what they were looking for until they were told when Quinn came in the Door. Quinn has been watching these guys for some time, not just a couple months, that's not the way it works. He was watching them for fits in Atlanta right?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

If your coaches aren't adaptable enough to find a way to use a top talent, I want new coaches.

I didn't want Quinn either but I don't write the checks and he's here now. Do you? If so, why the hell did you hire this guy?

 

[TheDude]

So, you think that it's a better idea to let the guys who have been looking at the prospects for a couple of months have more sway than the group that have been looking at the guys, cultivating the relationships and gathering the information for years?

To me, let the coaches set the positional prototypes in terms of desired height/weight/speed/arm length/testing, and let the scouts go find those players.

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[JD_KaPow]

But if that's the case, then the scouts are at the disadvantage because they haven't been scouting for players that fit the new scheme. They have been scouting players who fit the old scheme. So it would actually seem to be an advantage to the Coaching Staff. They have been following the players who fit the scheme the entire time right?

Our Scouting department didn't have any idea what they were looking for until they were told when Quinn came in the Door. Quinn has been watching these guys for some time, not just a couple months, that's not the way it works. He was watching them for fits in Atlanta right?

What do you mean, "they haven't been scouting for players that fit the new scheme?" You think the scouts haven't examined both Surtain and Horn with a fine-toothed comb? You think that if you describe a scheme to them, they can't tell you immediately what the strengths and weaknesses of each player would be in such a scheme? They'd have to say, "Oh no, now I have to start over, go back and look at that guy for another 2 months to figure out how he'd be in a different scheme!"

 

[morasp]

It sounds like scheme versus talent, coaches with their scheme/teachability perspective and priority, and scouts approaching it from a capability standpoint. Much like what we talk about around here, the classical debate.

For me, talent should change the scheme, but quite often lately, talented players play out of position in Dallas

No kidding, with our coaching carousel who knows how long these guys will be here. I don't know how much say he had at Atlanta but everything I read says they need more talent on defense.

 

[Plankton]

But if that's the case, then the scouts are at the disadvantage because they haven't been scouting for players that fit the new scheme. They have been scouting players who fit the old scheme. So it would actually seem to be an advantage to the Coaching Staff. They have been following the players who fit the scheme the entire time right?

Our Scouting department didn't have any idea what they were looking for until they were told when Quinn came in the Door. Quinn has been watching these guys for some time, not just a couple months, that's not the way it works. He was watching them for fits in Atlanta right?

Do you really think that the coaches are following the college prospects closely? They are concerned about the week to week grind of the league, and the guys that they have under their charge.

Also, the Cowboys changed schemes for one year. They are going back to the same type of scheme that they played for the previous six seasons, so, yes. I do think that the scouts would have a much better handle on the prospects than the coaches do.

If you think that the coaching staff has the ability to speak more fluently on a Patrick Surtain or a Jaycee Horn than the scouts, then I would disagree with that vigorously. If the coaching staff is speaking about the player prototype that they want, then they will be more fluent about those qualities. They will also be more fluent about the guys that they have currently coached, not guys that they have only recently acquainted themselves with.

 

[mardwin]

Horn has the most upside. He is a lockdown corner just looking at the film, he played the same competition as Surtain with a more limited supporting cast and performed as well.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

What do you mean, "they haven't been scouting for players that fit the new scheme?" You think the scouts haven't examined both Surtain and Horn with a fine-toothed comb? You think that if you describe a scheme to them, they can't tell you immediately what the strengths and weaknesses of each player would be in such a scheme? They'd have to say, "Oh no, now I have to start over, go back and look at that guy for another 2 months to figure out how he'd be in a different scheme!"

What are you talking about? Go back and reread the thread.

But so you know, scouts don't scout everybody. Scouts look for guys who fit scheme. That's how it works in the Pros. Too many players to scout everybody.

Now, I will say this, teams will scout top players so it's likely that scouts have looked at both of these guys but still in all, they haven't been focusing on guys who don't fit. Also, they haven't been going to games and watching as much live necessarily because most of these guys, they haven't been able to because of Covid. They have been watching a lot of video.

So yes, just because you are scout, doesn't mean you understand the scheme or what players fit best. That, like anything else, is a learning process.

If scouts were as competent as you seem to suggest, we wouldn't miss on anything. It's not an exact science for sure.

 

[America's Cowboy]

Coaches want Horn. Scouts want Surtain.

Both of them are numbskulls.

There are good quality CBs to be had in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

Cowboys should be wanting to trade down into the late teens (no later than 20) while getting an extra late 2nd round pick and possibly a late 3rd or 4th as well.

Then use that traded down 1st round pick to go after someone like big interior DT Christian Barmore. If he's taken, Cowboys could also go after either big O-Tackle Teven Jenkins or LB Zaven Collins.

Then pick up a CB like either Eric Stokes, Rodarius Williams, Greg Newsome II or Kelvin Joseph in the 2nd round with 1 of their 2 2nd round picks. Heck, if the Cowboys got lucky enough to see Caleb Farley drop to #44, definitely pick him up at that point.

If the Cowboys use that traded down pick on a OT or LB, they could also use 1 of their 2 2nd round picks on DT Alim McNeill.

The key is to create as many picks in the first 2-3 rounds as possible, especially since those 1st round rated CBs aren't bonafied top 10 overall talents. But knowing this front office, they will continue to bumble things up and make the wrong decisions. It's why they continue to fail to build a playoff winning team for the past 26 seasons.

Oh, well...enjoy your wasted #10 overall pick on either Horn or Surtain. It's only going to leave other holes open and in need for this very bad Defense. The Cowboys front office keeps playing checkers while other teams play chess. Good luck.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Do you really think that the coaches are following the college prospects closely? They are concerned about the week to week grind of the league, and the guys that they have under their charge.

Also, the Cowboys changed schemes for one year. They are going back to the same type of scheme that they played for the previous six seasons, so, yes. I do think that the scouts would have a much better handle on the prospects than the coaches do.

If you think that the coaching staff has the ability to speak more fluently on a Patrick Surtain or a Jaycee Horn than the scouts, then I would disagree with that vigorously. If the coaching staff is speaking about the player prototype that they want, then they will be more fluent about those qualities. They will also be more fluent about the guys that they have currently coached, not guys that they have only recently acquainted themselves with.

Yeah, this is not true. The Cowboys never played the Seattle scheme. NEVER.

That's just wrong.

 

[morasp]

Either are good if we could add a third and still get Horn that would be really good.

 

[Aven8]

Well you have Surtain who is very similar to Byron Jones. And you have Horn who is very similar to Richard Sherman.

 

[TheDude]

I hope its Horn. Then @Risen Star will have 4 years of Rayne and then, when the that contract is off the books, we can sign Diggs and Horn to $25MM/yr ea. He will pine for the days of Rayne like a Shakespearean tragedy.

 

[conner01]

be smart here. if you go down a couple of picks and still get horn. do it.

Who do you trade with to move down just a few spots
Everyone would love to trade down and still get a great player but it’s not easy or guaranteed

 

[conner01]

Do you really think that the coaches are following the college prospects closely? They are concerned about the week to week grind of the league, and the guys that they have under their charge.

Also, the Cowboys changed schemes for one year. They are going back to the same type of scheme that they played for the previous six seasons, so, yes. I do think that the scouts would have a much better handle on the prospects than the coaches do.

If you think that the coaching staff has the ability to speak more fluently on a Patrick Surtain or a Jaycee Horn than the scouts, then I would disagree with that vigorously. If the coaching staff is speaking about the player prototype that they want, then they will be more fluent about those qualities. They will also be more fluent about the guys that they have currently coached, not guys that they have only recently acquainted themselves with.

I just the guys who spend the entire year looking at players myself

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Either are good if we could add a third and still get Horn that would be really good.

Not gonna happen I'm guessing but I'm with you. I would love to pick up another pick and Horn. Ideal right?

 

[conner01]

Well you have Surtain who is very similar to Byron Jones. And you have Horn who is very similar to Richard Sherman.

If that’s the case we are set
Take surtain at 10 and Horn in the 5th round lol

 

[conner01]

Not gonna happen I'm guessing but I'm with you. I would love to pick up another pick and Horn. Ideal right?

That’s the perfect scenario
But risky
I remember us wanting a center real bad one year and someone traded just in front of us and got him