Can Parcells build a top notch offensive line ?

[Mike 1967]

The problem is that I have not seen Big Bill draft a solid O-lineman yet. I have seen 2 draft busts in Peterman and that Tackle that is no longer with us. I have also seen one bust FA in Rivera. And I have seen 1 average pick in Pettiti.

And I am on the verge of calling Al Johnson a bust.

And lets not forget that Bill stated that Flozell was one of the best Tackles in the league when Bill was first hired as HC

I have all the confidence in Big Bills ability to find/select defensive front seven personel....but I am losing confidence in his ability to select offensive linemen.

Do we have any old Jets or Giants fans on this forum that can give me historic precedents that will bring me hope ?

Hopefully Big Bill proves me wrong next offseason.

 

[CowboysNumeroUno]

its way to early to call peterman a bust

 

[Teague31]

we have not drafted an O-Lineman in the 1st round in like 20 years... time for a change.

 

[Mike 1967]

its way to early to call peterman a bust

I'm not sure that I would say "way" to early.

Parcells is the one who always says that if a player does not show something by thier 3rd year they are a bust.

And next year is his third year.

 

[Sabu1]

Well, right off the top of my head....Parcells drafted Randy Thomas and Jason Fabini with Jets. Both players ended up being very good. He also drafted Dave Wholabaugh with the Patriots who was a fine center for them. I think people are still too quick to give up on Al Johnson. He is essentially a 2nd year player still. JMHO

 

[LaTunaNostra]

The problem is that I have not seen Big Bill draft a solid O-lineman yet. I have seen 2 draft busts in Peterman and that Tackle that is no longer with us. I have also seen one bust FA in Rivera. And I have seen 1 average pick in Pettiti.

And I am on the verge of calling Al Johnson a bust.

And lets not forget that Bill stated that Flozell was one of the best Tackles in the league when Bill was first hired as HC

I have all the confidence in Big Bills ability to find/select defensive front seven personel....but I am losing confidence in his ability to select offensive linemen.

Do we have any old Jets or Giants fans on this forum that can give me historic precedents that will bring me hope ?

Hopefully Big Bill proves me wrong next offseason.

I don't recall how he built the Jints line. But he has mentioned several times that when starting out there, he initially let the center position do him in. He vowed never to let that happen again, and since then has made his center the priority.

I think Al was handpicked by Bill, and if he fails, it's a major setback for Tuna, who claims you build a team from the line out and a line from the center out.

I can give you a pretty detailed summary of how he built his line in Ne and Ny..but I've been goofing off here all day and have to get some work done.

I will try to do so before turning in. One note now - he has drafted oline as deeply and broadly as he did dline here this year.

one more note- he hasn't hesitated to (shockingly) fire both starting guards after an AFC conference game appearance because his tail had too many 'negative runs' that year.

 

[Eskimo]

I think the OL, TEs, RBs and LBs are the hallmark of a BP team. He has done an okay job in 3 of those areas but I have no idea why he has failed so miserably at OL. He built tough, effective OLs at all his previous stops.

 

[lspain1]

Well, right off the top of my head....Parcells drafted Randy Thomas and Jason Fabini with Jets. Both players ended up being very good. He also drafted Dave Wholabaugh with the Patriots who was a fine center for them. I think people are still too quick to give up on Al Johnson. He is essentially a 2nd year player still. JMHO

Sabu, what is going to happen to improve his perfomance in this upcoming offseason? I'm not sure coaching or more weights will help this guy. I hope you're right but I can't figure out how he is going to improve. I actually think Petitti has a better chance to improve rather than Johnson.

 

[fairviewfarmer]

Can Parcells build a top notch offensive line? In a word , No.

 

[Eskimo]

Sabu, what is going to happen to improve his perfomance in this upcoming offseason? I'm not sure coaching or more weights will help this guy. I hope you're right but I can't figure out how he is going to improve. I actually think Petitti has a better chance to improve rather than Johnson.

I agree - Johnson is technically sound and smart he just is a bad fit with the other players on the OL. He is a finesse guy who really needs to play in space where he is good at getting out on the LBs. The problem is that too many other players on this OL lack the athletic ability to make such a scheme work.

I think it's a matter of the parts we have not complimenting each other.

 

[Sabu1]

I could be wrong but the guy is two years removed from microfracture surgery on his knee. The guy did miss his entire rookie year. His "real" third year is coming up and this will be the one he'll be judged by. Just my opinion....

 

[Chocolate Lab]

I agree - Johnson is technically sound and smart he just is a bad fit with the other players on the OL. He is a finesse guy who really needs to play in space where he is good at getting out on the LBs. The problem is that too many other players on this OL lack the athletic ability to make such a scheme work.

I think it's a matter of the parts we have not complimenting each other.

Bingo, Eskimo. Half our line are slow maulers, and half are mobile finesse guys. I think that's a serious problem.

BTW, very interesting note on Bill firing both tackles even after a successful year. That's encouraging for next year.

 

[Cbz40]

Very interesting observations Eskimo, CL. What do you prefer??.....The mauler or the mobile finesse guys.......I think I would prefer the more athletic finesse guys who is quick enough to block the speed rusher off the edge but also has enough size to slow down the bull rush up the middle.

 

[AbeBeta]

I agree - Johnson is technically sound and smart he just is a bad fit with the other players on the OL. He is a finesse guy who really needs to play in space where he is good at getting out on the LBs. The problem is that too many other players on this OL lack the athletic ability to make such a scheme work.

I think it's a matter of the parts we have not complimenting each other.

But isn't this a hybrid offense? Why wouldn't you want a mix of maulers and finesse players in that case.

 

[Eskimo]

Very interesting observations Eskimo, CL. What do you prefer.....The mauler or the mobile finesse guys.......I think I would prefer the more athletic finesse guys who is quick enough to block the speed rusher off the edge but also has enough size to slow down the bull rush up the middle.

I think when you've got a RB like Julius with quickness and speed and you want to run a lot of screens, you're much better off with an athletic, finesse OL.

If you want a bulldozer at RB and want to play smashmouth, then you go for the maulers.

I think Cowboys football (i.e. Landry) has traditionally been played with an athletic, finesse OL. That changed with Jimmy, Norv and Houck who went with technically proficient but unathletic maulers.

The OL that BP has brought in show a bit of schizophrenia - LA (who BP was handcuffed to), Flo (who BP re-signed when we he got here), Gurode, Pettiti and Peterman are maulers. Al Johnson, Rivera, Rogers (cut/IR), Noll (cut) are finesse guys.

Ideally you'd like guys who can do a bit of both but right now we've got guys who can only do one or the other and the parts just don't match into a cohesive unit.

Personally, I think the unathletic mauling OL is a bit of a dinosaur today and I want our OL stocked with quicker guys who can make the screens and stretch play work because of the amount of stress it places on a defense to execute and avoid overaggressiveness.

 

[Eskimo]

But isn't this a hybrid offense? Why wouldn't you want a mix of maulers and finesse players in that case.

I think the key is you want guys who can succeed running both kinds of plays - these are just archetypes.

Our OL fails because our players are uni-dimensional and that one dimension is in conflict from one player to the next. Thus we can't properly execute plays in either scheme.

 

[Cbz40]

I think when you've got a RB like Julius with quickness and speed and you want to run a lot of screens, you're much better off with an athletic, finesse OL.

If you want a bulldozer at RB and want to play smashmouth, then you go for the maulers.

I think Cowboys football (i.e. Landry) has traditionally been played with an athletic, finesse OL. That changed with Jimmy, Norv and Houck who went with technically proficient but unathletic maulers.

The OL that BP has brought in show a bit of schizophrenia - LA (who BP was handcuffed to), Flo (who BP re-signed when we he got here), Gurode, Pettiti and Peterman are maulers. Al Johnson, Rivera, Rogers (cut/IR), Noll (cut) are finesse guys.

Ideally you'd like guys who can do a bit of both but right now we've got guys who can only do one or the other and the parts just don't match into a cohesive unit.

Personally, I think the unathletic mauling OL is a bit of a dinosaur today and I want our OL stocked with quicker guys who can make the screens and stretch play work because of the amount of stress it places on a defense to execute and avoid overaggressiveness.

The teams that have been are about to achieve success seem to have the more athletic OL.

Thank you Sir ...very interesting.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

Bingo, Eskimo. Half our line are slow maulers, and half are mobile finesse guys. I think that's a serious problem.

BTW, very interesting note on Bill firing both tackles even after a successful year. That's encouraging for next year.

It was two guards CL, Matt O'Dwyer and a guy named Burger. And it all based on 'negative runs'. Martin had only a 3.5 yd per carry ave despite his near 1300 yards on about 370 carries.

In those days, negative runs got blamed on guard play tho. The way things
are going these days, poor JJ will take the heat.

 

[LaTunaNostra]

I think when you've got a RB like Julius with quickness and speed and you want to run a lot of screens, you're much better off with an athletic, finesse OL.

If you want a bulldozer at RB and want to play smashmouth, then you go for the maulers.

I think Cowboys football (i.e. Landry) has traditionally been played with an athletic, finesse OL. That changed with Jimmy, Norv and Houck who went with technically proficient but unathletic maulers.

The OL that BP has brought in show a bit of schizophrenia - LA (who BP was handcuffed to), Flo (who BP re-signed when we he got here), Gurode, Pettiti and Peterman are maulers. Al Johnson, Rivera, Rogers (cut/IR), Noll (cut) are finesse guys.

Ideally you'd like guys who can do a bit of both but right now we've got guys who can only do one or the other and the parts just don't match into a cohesive unit.

Personally, I think the unathletic mauling OL is a bit of a dinosaur today and I want our OL stocked with quicker guys who can make the screens and stretch play work because of the amount of stress it places on a defense to execute and avoid overaggressiveness.

Nice post.

I agree that the line Bill envisioned here is one stamped by his signature 03 pick - Al Johnson, a reputed Kevin Mawae clone who could potentially pull with the best of them.

It hasn't turned out that way, and schizophrenia is the very word to describe the mish mosh of styles, talents and body types that are here today.

Ryan Young was supposed to be his ideal RT. Agile, smart and mammoth as well. That didn't work out due to a bum knee, but Yoing and Al are the style Bill fancied, imo.

Bill also, tho, kept a more traditional fullback for Martin in Sam Gash, and had another one in NY for goal line and specials duties in Rich Sowell, even if Richie Anderson's versatility won him the starter slot.

That's another diff...even when he was going for movement and agility on the line, he had a smash mouth fullback around for the crunch.

Now there's neither enough power nor enough finesse.

 

[ddh33]

I keep asking the same question, but how do you fix the line? There is a lot of money and youth invested in those positions, and it makes it difficult to make moves there because of that. You want to give those kinds of guys every chance to succeed.