Can someone explain to me the 1st round d-line obsession

[endersdragon]

Before Hardy was signed I could get it, I really could, but anymore it just seems silly to want to draft either a DE to sit on our 4th spot (at least in pass rushing ability), or a 3-tech to sit behind Crawford. I suppose we could go 1-tech, where we certainly have a need, but I can't see the Cowboys doing that in the first given their history.

I know some of you will say, yes our d-line looks fine this year, but next year we will lose 3 of our key contributors, and yes indeed this is true. However, those are 3 of the only 4 players we really stand to lose next year (Dez being the other one everyone else is a JAG at best) and I believe we will have something like $40 million to start free agency next year, not exactly a crisis situation.

I know some will also say, "You can never have too many pass rushers" and this just doesn't hold water for me. I believe I read somewhere that last year our 4th DE saw something like 5% of snaps. We could draft a RB that would probably see 40% of snaps (and account for 20%+ of our offensive production), a CB who would probably see 90% of snaps, a LB who will likely see 40% of snaps until Lee gets hurt, after which he will see 80% of snaps... or a DE who will see 5% of snaps.

Yes there is the BPA argument but I have two problems with this. 1) chances are no d-linemen will be BPA, they are taken too early too often. Secondly, while that does better help us plan for the future, I believe we are primed to get a Super Bowl now, and I think we should go for a guy that will help get us there this year, not a guy who might come in to replace Hardy next year. So while I wouldn't go crazy about a DE or 3-tech pick (we won't pick a 1-tech, Jones and Marinelli just don't value the position enough) and would understand it is just planning for the future, can someone explain to me why so many around here are obsessed with such a pick?

 

[DBOY3141]

I think we have to look at DE because of the unknown in 2016 with Hardy. Say he is not on the team. So now in 2016 probably sitting in the same draft spot we are back to needing a DE. If BPA this year is a DE, then come next year they have one year of exp. Now we have a 2year vet in DLaw and a 1 year vet in the other DE spot.

So with the signing of Hardy, I would not rule out DE if the right one is there.

 

[endersdragon]

I think we have to look at DE because of the unknown in 2016 with Hardy. Say he is not on the team. So now in 2016 probably sitting in the same draft spot we are back to needing a DE. If BPA this year is a DE, then come next year they have one year of exp. Now we have a 2year vet in DLaw and a 1 year vet in the other DE spot.

So with the signing of Hardy, I would not rule out DE if the right one is there.

I get that we will have needs at DE next year, when we have $30-40 million in cap space (without restructures) but we already have needs this year at CB (especially if we have to release Carr) and if we can't rely on Lee (which we really can't) or resigning McClain, at linebacker as well. I agree with taking BPA, but I just don't see that being DE.

 

[DBOY3141]

I get that we will have needs at DE next year, when we have $30-40 million in cap space (without restructures) but we already have needs this year at CB (especially if we have to release Carr) and if we can't rely on Lee (which we really can't) or resigning McClain, at linebacker as well. I agree with taking BPA, but I just don't see that being DE.

True. So far the only CB's that I've seen projected to go Rd #1 are Waynes, Peters, Johnson. LB's are Hendricks, McKinnley. A lot can happen in the next month. They could sign McClain to a 2 year deal, so that would pretty much eliminate LB. Lot's of different scenario's could happen come April 30th.

 

[Rockport]

Before Hardy was signed I could get it, I really could, but anymore it just seems silly to want to draft either a DE to sit on our 4th spot (at least in pass rushing ability), or a 3-tech to sit behind Crawford. I suppose we could go 1-tech, where we certainly have a need, but I can't see the Cowboys doing that in the first given their history.

I know some of you will say, yes our d-line looks fine this year, but next year we will lose 3 of our key contributors, and yes indeed this is true. However, those are 3 of the only 4 players we really stand to lose next year (Dez being the other one everyone else is a JAG at best) and I believe we will have something like $40 million to start free agency next year, not exactly a crisis situation.

I know some will also say, "You can never have too many pass rushers" and this just doesn't hold water for me. I believe I read somewhere that last year our 4th DE saw something like 5% of snaps. We could draft a RB that would probably see 40% of snaps (and account for 20%+ of our offensive production), a CB who would probably see 90% of snaps, a LB who will likely see 40% of snaps until Lee gets hurt, after which he will see 80% of snaps... or a DE who will see 5% of snaps.

Yes there is the BPA argument but I have two problems with this. 1) chances are no d-linemen will be BPA, they are taken too early too often. Secondly, while that does better help us plan for the future, I believe we are primed to get a Super Bowl now, and I think we should go for a guy that will help get us there this year, not a guy who might come in to replace Hardy next year. So while I wouldn't go crazy about a DE or 3-tech pick (we won't pick a 1-tech, Jones and Marinelli just don't value the position enough) and would understand it is just planning for the future, can someone explain to me why so many around here are obsessed with such a pick?

Because it's the weakest area on the team by far. Still need another starter and depth.

 

[AzorAhai]

I've never seen the obsession. People have been clamoring for DL since well before Hardy and I've not seen the value at 27. DL was always going to be a reach pick. If one of the top guys falls I'm more than ok with it, but no reaching. Also everyone always says you can't have enough pass rushers, but you can have too few CB's and LB's also. You can't neglect other positions just to have 4 or 5 pass rushers. With the Carr news, I think its more likely than ever a CB is picked high. You can't have Scandrick and Patmon as your starting CBs and be ok with it. Right now CB and RB are the 2 glaring needs and bpa will likely line up with those positions or very close in the 1st and 2nd.

Also the team has bought at least a year on the DL so they could take a 3rd or 4th rd player that needs a little development now and not need an immediate impact player.

 

[Sydla]

Take the best player available at 27 (with a dash of needs sprinkled in). If that's a DE, you take the DE. Or maybe work a trade.

 

[endersdragon]

Because it's the weakest area on the team by far. Still need another starter and depth.

We need a starter at 1-tech, and I suppose some depth at 3-tech. I think Mincey is a perfect back DE.

 

[Derinyar]

Right now the DLine looks like it could use a boost at 1 tech, 4th DE and 2nd 1 tech. I really doubt anyone we bring in or draft right now is going to be better the Mincey/Lawrence this year. At 3 tech, it doesn't look like one should be there when we draft. 1 tech seems to be a dividing point, but I'd lean toward saying we're unlikely to draft one in round 1. The two primary DE's that we seem to discuss at 27 are OO and Preston Smith. OO has the measuarbles but hasn't really played that much as a 4-3 rush end and it seems like some think he doesn't show elite burst off the edge. Preston Smith seems to be the same sorta guy. These two really read more like LDE as opposed to RDE, and I could question taking that in the 1st round also.

 

[AzorAhai]

We need a starter at 1-tech, and I suppose some depth at 3-tech. I think Mincey is a perfect back DE.

Thats nonsense. We need 3 Suhs, 3 Watts, 2 Hardys and 2 Quinns complimented by 5 Claibornes, 6 Bobby Carpenters and 4 Roy Williams(SS) because you know, pass rushersare all that matters.

 

[theogt]

I know some of you will say, yes our d-line looks fine this year, but next year we will lose 3 of our key contributors, and yes indeed this is true. However, those are 3 of the only 4 players we really stand to lose next year (Dez being the other one everyone else is a JAG at best) and I believe we will have something like $40 million to start free agency next year, not exactly a crisis situation.

If people honestly thought we would lose Dez next season, you'd see people wanting to a draft a receiver. But no one expects that, because it's a completely different situation compared to Hardy.

 

[endersdragon]

If people honestly thought we would lose Dez next season, you'd see people wanting to a draft a receiver. But no one expects that, because it's a completely different situation compared to Hardy.

I don't think we will lose anyone that isn't replacable next season. We will have a lot of cap room without even restructuring anyone. We might lose Hardy just because, but there should be another fairly capable DE in free agency we can pick up. Crawford, Mincey, and Dez are here for the long haul I think.

 

[AzorAhai]

I don't think we will lose anyone that isn't replacable next season. We will have a lot of cap room without even restructuring anyone. We might lose Hardy just because, but there should be another fairly capable DE in free agency we can pick up. Crawford, Mincey, and Dez are here for the long haul I think.

If they want to retain Hardy after this trial run, they will. Lots of cap room next year like you said. If he's not here, it's more to do with trusting him than anything else.

 

[TheEnigma]

We need a starter at 1-tech, and I suppose some depth at 3-tech. I think Mincey is a perfect back DE.

Mincey can also take snaps at the 3T as well if need be. As long as he's healthy he'll play a lot even if he doesn't start.

DE'S take a year or two to develop so if one is bpa in round 1 you take him. Just give me bpa out of cb, lb, dl, and rb.

 

[Leadbelly]

Thats nonsense. We need 3 Suhs, 3 Watts, 2 Hardys and 2 Quinns complimented by 5 Claibornes, 6 Bobby Carpenters and 4 Roy Williams(SS) because you know, pass rushersare all that matters.

The point would be you have to run to players drafted by other teams to find enough DL for your example.

The other defensive positions have received plenty of early round attention from Dallas over the last 15 years.

 

[AzorAhai]

The point would be you have to run to players drafted by other teams to find enough DL for your example.

The other defensive positions have received plenty of early round attention from Dallas over the last 15 years.

The Cowboys have drafted many positions in the 1st rd over the last 15 years including D line. Bottom line is people screaming draft DLine still, even after signing Hardy, are wanting to draft a back up at 27(possibly a long term backup if Hardy is resigned). With Carr likely on the way out, Mcclain possibly not returning, and Murray leaving, not only will a CB, RB or LB in rd 1 line up with bpa, its likely a starter also.

Btw the post you are referring to above was pure sarcasm.

 

[waving monkey]

Before Hardy was signed I could get it, I really could, but anymore it just seems silly to want to draft either a DE to sit on our 4th spot (at least in pass rushing ability), or a 3-tech to sit behind Crawford. I suppose we could go 1-tech, where we certainly have a need, but I can't see the Cowboys doing that in the first given their history.

I know some of you will say, yes our d-line looks fine this year, but next year we will lose 3 of our key contributors, and yes indeed this is true. However, those are 3 of the only 4 players we really stand to lose next year (Dez being the other one everyone else is a JAG at best) and I believe we will have something like $40 million to start free agency next year, not exactly a crisis situation.

I know some will also say, "You can never have too many pass rushers" and this just doesn't hold water for me. I believe I read somewhere that last year our 4th DE saw something like 5% of snaps. We could draft a RB that would probably see 40% of snaps (and account for 20%+ of our offensive production), a CB who would probably see 90% of snaps, a LB who will likely see 40% of snaps until Lee gets hurt, after which he will see 80% of snaps... or a DE who will see 5% of snaps.

Yes there is the BPA argument but I have two problems with this. 1) chances are no d-linemen will be BPA, they are taken too early too often. Secondly, while that does better help us plan for the future, I believe we are primed to get a Super Bowl now, and I think we should go for a guy that will help get us there this year, not a guy who might come in to replace Hardy next year. So while I wouldn't go crazy about a DE or 3-tech pick (we won't pick a 1-tech, Jones and Marinelli just don't value the position enough) and would understand it is just planning for the future, can someone explain to me why so many around here are obsessed with such a pick?

The issue with defensive line [as we all know] is pressure. Keeping the rushmen fresh by rotation
is the name of this game. The second man will get a lot of snaps so a 1st round pick becoming the second rusher is a good resource to invest in. This is without considering injury.

 

[Leadbelly]

The Cowboys have drafted many positions in the 1st rd over the last 15 years including D line. Bottom line is people screaming draft DLine still, even after signing Hardy, are wanting to draft a back up at 27(possibly a long term backup if Hardy is resigned). With Carr likely on the way out, Mcclain possibly not returning, and Murray leaving, not only will a CB, RB or LB in rd 1 line up with bpa, its likely a starter also.

Btw the post you are referring to above was pure sarcasm.

I figured it was just in fun, but there are others who disregard the value of defensive linemen in round 1. One in fact owns the team. He used to have the same opinion on offensive linemen.

And we've drafted only 4 DL in the first two rounds over 15 years and two were OLBs.

 

[AzorAhai]

I figured it was just in fun, but there are others who disregard the value of defensive linemen in round 1. One in fact owns the team. He used to have the same opinion on offensive linemen.

And we've drafted only 4 DL in the first two rounds over 15 years and two were OLBs.

Didn't do the math, but thats around 12-15% I believe. While I would agree it should be slightly higher, thats overall not extremely bad, especially when nearly a decade of that time you had Ware, lessening the need for edge rushers. Im ok with any position if they fit that bpa area. I just don't think pass rusher will line up. Last year I was in the Donald/Barr camp, but BPA worked out great. I would bet BPA has a significantly higher rate of success than reaching for needs.

 

[Leadbelly]

I get that we will have needs at DE next year, when we have $30-40 million in cap space (without restructures) but we already have needs this year at CB (especially if we have to release Carr) and if we can't rely on Lee (which we really can't) or resigning McClain, at linebacker as well. I agree with taking BPA, but I just don't see that being DE.

Having $30m to $40m in cap space to spend on DL doesn't matter if there aren't DL worth spending it on. Unless there are off-the-field issues or they had a giant rookie contract that predated the rookie cap, top young DL rarely hit free agency without a tag.

The top 3 untagged DL FAs in 2014 (by contract value) were Michael Johnson, Lamarr Houston, and Arthur Jones
Top 3 in 2013 were Desmond Bryant, Ricky Jean Francois, and Cliff Avril
Top 3 in 2012 were Mario Williams, Mark Anderson, and Broderick Bunkley
Top 3 in 2011 were Charles Johnson (resigned), Jason Babin, and Ray Edwards

Not exactly great buys. The best one available next year is likely the guy we just added to our roster and he will probably cost a lot.

Meanwhile, setting the last two draft years aside as too early to assess, here are DL drafted around the back 1/3 of round 1...

2012 - Chandler Jones, Whitney Mercilus, Nick Perry
2011 - Phil Taylor, Cameron Jordan, Mo Wilkerson, Cameron Heyward
2010 - Dan Williams, Jared Odrick, Jerry Hughes
2009 - Peria Jerry, Ziggy Hood

I'm not just cherry picking the ones that made it. They all made it. All start or started at least some. Nearly all are regular starters and a few are pro bowl level.

I'm all for BPA. The problem is when DL has the potential to be BPA we trade up or down or tie goes to pretty much any other position, meaning it's very unlikely to ever work out to be BPA. So then we're trotting out the Haydens and Selvies of the world as starters.