Can someone explain to me the 1st round d-line obsession

[SilverStarCowboy]

Shying away from DL not really a strong bunch ..... unless one intriguing enough slides like a DE Dupree, DE/DT Brown or DE/LB Beasley. Then you gotta jump.

Like RBs Gordon or Gurley better @ 27 than most scenarios in the trenches, but never neglect OLine versatility is king @ 27.

Achieve balance from pressure equal the playing field by creating match ups. Always covet Best Player Available early, a couple of players to contribute this year, regardless of position.

 

[CATCH17]

You see what the Oline did for our entire offense and our bland passing schemes?

Dline could do the same thing.

 

[Leadbelly]

And just to be clear, I'm not in favor of reaching or targeting DL (or any position). I just think at 27, Preston Smith and Eli Harold have a high chance of being available around there and being BPA, so they should be among the considerations. Of course, any higher rated guys as well, like Dupree or Shane Ray or Malcolm Brown.

Taking a DL would be because of a belief in BPA. Avoiding Preston Smith because we signed Hardy is the opposite of a BPA philosophy.

** I think OO is adding another injury prone guy, so prefer not. I don't care for Arik Armstead's game but would understand the risk/reward attraction at 27.

 

[AzorAhai]

And just to be clear, I'm not in favor of reaching or targeting DL (or any position). I just think at 27, Preston Smith and Eli Harold have a high chance of being available around there and being BPA, so they should be among the considerations. Of course, any higher rated guys as well, like Dupree or Shane Ray or Malcolm Brown.

Taking a DL would be because of a belief in BPA. Avoiding Preston Smith because we signed Hardy is the opposite of a BPA philosophy.

** I think OO is adding another injury prone guy, so prefer not. I don't care for Arik Armstead's game but would understand the risk/reward attraction at 27.

I've got Preston Smith as a late 2nd rd pick. At 27, I would be incredibly disappointed. Harold has grown on me, im just not sure if he would be a scheme fit or play the run well enough. At 27 I don't know if I would risk the pick on him. He's a bit of a project and not refined in his technique. If he was the pick, I could get behind it, but think other players would fit better. OO I agree on. Hip is scary, and not blown away by the player. He's another I could get behind, but wouldn't be my preference.

I would prefer a player like Lorenzo Mauldin or Zadarius (sp) Smith in rd 3. Mauldin will need some weight room time and technique trainingto ever become a 4-3 DE, but should be able to contribute some on passing downs immediately. Smith is probably peaked out athleticly, but has solid technique and will get added strength in an NFL weight training program. I think he will be a solid 6-8 sack SDE for many years who can play the run well.

These are the types of guys Hardy allows you to bring in now. Any DL picks don't have to come in and be depended on on a regular basis this year. It can be a development year for the type of guy you can find in rds 2-3-4. If one of the top guys like Dupree or Beasley drops, you take him of course. As for who is likely to be there, I think other players will be rated higher. Gurley, Gordon, TJ Clemmings, DJ Humphries, Marcus Peters, Kevin Johnson, Malcolm Brown, PJ Williams, Jake Fisher. These are all guys I have rated higher than Preston Smith, Eli Harold and OO, some of whom will be there at 27.

 

[bodi]

he can play any where along the line

With Smith, the first thing that is apparent is that he has an ability to be versatile and to be lined up in a number of spots. MSU would start him at RDE, but you are going to see him move to LDE, 3-tech, and even the 0-tech where he lines up right on top of the center in the 3rd down package when the Bulldogs would opt for a 30 front. . Overall, I think he is the type of player the Cowboys are always looking for, and he honestly reminds you a bit of Tyrone Crawford, but with better pass rush moves already in his arsenal from when Crawford left Boise State. He has a thick lower body which might mean he could add another 15 pounds and be an impressive 285-pound DE.

 

[AzorAhai]

he can play any where along the line

With Smith, the first thing that is apparent is that he has an ability to be versatile and to be lined up in a number of spots. MSU would start him at RDE, but you are going to see him move to LDE, 3-tech, and even the 0-tech where he lines up right on top of the center in the 3rd down package when the Bulldogs would opt for a 30 front. . Overall, I think he is the type of player the Cowboys are always looking for, and he honestly reminds you a bit of Tyrone Crawford, but with better pass rush moves already in his arsenal from when Crawford left Boise State. He has a thick lower body which might mean he could add another 15 pounds and be an impressive 285-pound DE.

I've looked at him several times and still don't have him as a 1st rd pick. I think he ends up going mid 2nd. If he's the pick in rd 2, I would be happy with the pick. At 27, I'm just not a fan. If Gurley is gone, I really hope K. Johnson is the pick. I absolutely love this guy and think he might end up being the best CB in this draft in 2-3 years. I really, really like Gurley, but K. Johnson as a consolation prize is still very good. I actually have him as my 2nd corner behind Peters right now, but just slightly. I'm not as high on Waynes as most Draftniks are.

 

[AmericanCowboy]

Easy- Hardy is going to be suspended and he hasnt played football in a year- his injury risk is going to be pretty high.

Demarcus Lawrence missed a ton of games last year.

Dline is a tough position to play. It is also an expensive position to get in free agency.

Thats why people want D-line in the first.

My preference is Todd Gurley, A CB, then Dline.

 

[CATCH17]

Easy- Hardy is going to be suspended and he hasnt played football in a year- his injury risk is going to be pretty high.

Demarcus Lawrence missed a ton of games last year.

Dline is a tough position to play. It is also an expensive position to get in free agency.

Thats why people want D-line in the first.

My preference is Todd Gurley, A CB, then Dline.

I like the UCLA DE.. OO. There isn't a corner that I see having more potential then him.

 

[Outlaw Heroes]

1. You win in the trenches.

2. Hardy is signed to a one-year deal.

3. The draft isn't about immediate need but about building for the long term.

4. This team has a lot of long-term (and short-term) questions along the D-line.

5. See 1 above.

6. Did you really need this explained to you?

 

[xwalker]

Before Hardy was signed I could get it, I really could, but anymore it just seems silly to want to draft either a DE to sit on our 4th spot (at least in pass rushing ability), or a 3-tech to sit behind Crawford. I suppose we could go 1-tech, where we certainly have a need, but I can't see the Cowboys doing that in the first given their history.

I know some of you will say, yes our d-line looks fine this year, but next year we will lose 3 of our key contributors, and yes indeed this is true. However, those are 3 of the only 4 players we really stand to lose next year (Dez being the other one everyone else is a JAG at best) and I believe we will have something like $40 million to start free agency next year, not exactly a crisis situation.

I know some will also say, "You can never have too many pass rushers" and this just doesn't hold water for me. I believe I read somewhere that last year our 4th DE saw something like 5% of snaps. We could draft a RB that would probably see 40% of snaps (and account for 20%+ of our offensive production), a CB who would probably see 90% of snaps, a LB who will likely see 40% of snaps until Lee gets hurt, after which he will see 80% of snaps... or a DE who will see 5% of snaps.

Yes there is the BPA argument but I have two problems with this. 1) chances are no d-linemen will be BPA, they are taken too early too often. Secondly, while that does better help us plan for the future, I believe we are primed to get a Super Bowl now, and I think we should go for a guy that will help get us there this year, not a guy who might come in to replace Hardy next year. So while I wouldn't go crazy about a DE or 3-tech pick (we won't pick a 1-tech, Jones and Marinelli just don't value the position enough) and would understand it is just planning for the future, can someone explain to me why so many around here are obsessed with such a pick?

They should go BPA but if all else is equal they should "lean" towards the expensive positions like DL and CB. It tends to be much more expensive to get a pass rusher or CB in free agency than a 4-3 LB. You're basically getting more value from your draft pick taking a pass rusher or CB than an equal talent at LB.

I think the Cowboys have a lot of good options with young develoopmental players on DL; however, in general, the 2nd 3tech in Marinelli's scheme would get near starter reps if he is the right player. Marinelli would prefer to play two 3tech types in the Nickel which is about 50% of the snaps. If they play two 3tech in the Nickel and 1 in the base, that's 75% of the snaps for 3tech type DTs.

 

[dallasdave]

Before Hardy was signed I could get it, I really could, but anymore it just seems silly to want to draft either a DE to sit on our 4th spot (at least in pass rushing ability), or a 3-tech to sit behind Crawford. I suppose we could go 1-tech, where we certainly have a need, but I can't see the Cowboys doing that in the first given their history.

I know some of you will say, yes our d-line looks fine this year, but next year we will lose 3 of our key contributors, and yes indeed this is true. However, those are 3 of the only 4 players we really stand to lose next year (Dez being the other one everyone else is a JAG at best) and I believe we will have something like $40 million to start free agency next year, not exactly a crisis situation.

I know some will also say, "You can never have too many pass rushers" and this just doesn't hold water for me. I believe I read somewhere that last year our 4th DE saw something like 5% of snaps. We could draft a RB that would probably see 40% of snaps (and account for 20%+ of our offensive production), a CB who would probably see 90% of snaps, a LB who will likely see 40% of snaps until Lee gets hurt, after which he will see 80% of snaps... or a DE who will see 5% of snaps.

Yes there is the BPA argument but I have two problems with this. 1) chances are no d-linemen will be BPA, they are taken too early too often. Secondly, while that does better help us plan for the future, I believe we are primed to get a Super Bowl now, and I think we should go for a guy that will help get us there this year, not a guy who might come in to replace Hardy next year. So while I wouldn't go crazy about a DE or 3-tech pick (we won't pick a 1-tech, Jones and Marinelli just don't value the position enough) and would understand it is just planning for the future, can someone explain to me why so many around here are obsessed with such a pick?

Well said, stay thirsty my friend. I think the Jones will find a way to keep Hardy next year and the years to follow. I think D. Lawrence will come into his own this year, and Mincey is a good DE. The Cowboys need to focus on CB and RB.

 

[xwalker]

I've got Preston Smith as a late 2nd rd pick. At 27, I would be incredibly disappointed. Harold has grown on me, im just not sure if he would be a scheme fit or play the run well enough. At 27 I don't know if I would risk the pick on him. He's a bit of a project and not refined in his technique. If he was the pick, I could get behind it, but think other players would fit better. OO I agree on. Hip is scary, and not blown away by the player. He's another I could get behind, but wouldn't be my preference.

I would prefer a player like Lorenzo Mauldin or Zadarius (sp) Smith in rd 3. Mauldin will need some weight room time and technique trainingto ever become a 4-3 DE, but should be able to contribute some on passing downs immediately. Smith is probably peaked out athleticly, but has solid technique and will get added strength in an NFL weight training program. I think he will be a solid 6-8 sack SDE for many years who can play the run well.

These are the types of guys Hardy allows you to bring in now. Any DL picks don't have to come in and be depended on on a regular basis this year. It can be a development year for the type of guy you can find in rds 2-3-4. If one of the top guys like Dupree or Beasley drops, you take him of course. As for who is likely to be there, I think other players will be rated higher. Gurley, Gordon, TJ Clemmings, DJ Humphries, Marcus Peters, Kevin Johnson, Malcolm Brown, PJ Williams, Jake Fisher. These are all guys I have rated higher than Preston Smith, Eli Harold and OO, some of whom will be there at 27.

I would only want Smith as a DT but if he gains weight he might not be quich enough anymore.

 

[AzorAhai]

I would only want Smith as a DT but if he gains weight he might not be quich enough anymore.

P. Smith? I'm not nearly as impressed with him as some of these scouts. Even Bruglar likes him in the first and he's one of my go to guys for draft scouting. For what I think he will bring, I think you can find some guys with better value later than he's being projected.

Whats your take on L. Mauldin? I hope he's considered in the 3rd. I think with some good coaching he could be a nice addition for a WDE. Z. Smith is also a 3rd rd guy I would be interested in for the SDE spot.

 

[xwalker]

P. Smith? I'm not nearly as impressed with him as some of these scouts. Even Bruglar likes him in the first and he's one of my go to guys for draft scouting. For what I think he will bring, I think you can find some guys with better value later than he's being projected.

Whats your take on L. Mauldin? I hope he's considered in the 3rd. I think with some good coaching he could be a nice addition for a WDE. Z. Smith is also a 3rd rd guy I would be interested in for the SDE spot.

Smith is probably a safe rotational DL but he does not wow me.

I noticed Mauldin at all star game (Senior Bowl) and had to look him up. His game footage is good. Good 3rd round pick despite a slow time at the combine.

I'm a big fan of Z. Smith of an SDE. He is a football player over athlete.

 

[ccb04]

If they viewed BPA as a guy like Owa Odighizuwa...so be it. Right now Hardy is a 1-yr. rental, and Mincey is in the final year of his deal IIRC. That said, I agree there's bigger needs at the moment (esp. depending on what happens with certain players)...at CB, RB, LB, etc. Those 3 positions have also seen there fair share of injury issues...so has the DL.

As far as the DL...some of the names currently on the team (noting some could certainly be upgraded).....

LDE: Mincey/Lawrence, Gardner, Edwards, Boatright, Jack Crawford
1tech: Brent, Hayden, T. McClain, Bishop, Okoye
3tech: T. Crawford, T. McClain, Coleman, Okoye, Jack Crawford, C. Whaley
RDE: Hardy...Lawrence/Mincey

 

[endersdragon]

If they viewed BPA as a guy like Owa Odighizuwa...so be it. Right now Hardy is a 1-yr. rental, and Mincey is in the final year of his deal IIRC. That said, I agree there's bigger needs at the moment (esp. depending on what happens with certain players)...at CB, RB, LB, etc. Those 3 positions have also seen there fair share of injury issues...so has the DL.

As far as the DL...some of the names currently on the team (noting some could certainly be upgraded).....

LDE: Mincey/Lawrence, Gardner, Edwards, Boatright, Jack Crawford
1tech: Brent, Hayden, T. McClain, Bishop, Okoye
3tech: T. Crawford, T. McClain, Coleman, Okoye, Jack Crawford, C. Whaley
RDE: Hardy...Lawrence/Mincey

The only starter that needs to be upgraded on the line in Brent. While I think we got a couple of good backup LBs in free agency, we still only have 2 starters there, 3 if we get McClain back. I think our safeties will be better this year, and they weren't as horrible as common perception seems to think last year, but if Carr doesn't renegotiate we will need something more at CB, and of course McFadden is currently set to be our starting RB. Yea... I think we need some upgrades pretty bad there.

 

[AzorAhai]

If they viewed BPA as a guy like Owa Odighizuwa...so be it. Right now Hardy is a 1-yr. rental, and Mincey is in the final year of his deal IIRC. That said, I agree there's bigger needs at the moment (esp. depending on what happens with certain players)...at CB, RB, LB, etc. Those 3 positions have also seen there fair share of injury issues...so has the DL.

As far as the DL...some of the names currently on the team (noting some could certainly be upgraded).....

LDE: Mincey/Lawrence, Gardner, Edwards, Boatright, Jack Crawford
1tech: Brent, Hayden, T. McClain, Bishop, Okoye
3tech: T. Crawford, T. McClain, Coleman, Okoye, Jack Crawford, C. Whaley
RDE: Hardy...Lawrence/Mincey

The BPA approach should always take precedence, unless its a player who absolutely won't help your team. Like a TE wouldn't help this team. If a DL player is a tier higher than any RB, CB or LB take him. The reality is bpa will be based on tiers. Likely to be 5 or so players per tier. You pick the biggest need out of that tier with whos remaining in it.

For example pick 27 arrives, and the players look like :

Tier A-Gurley, Gordon
Tier B-OO, Jalen Strong, Eddie Goldman, Kevin Johnson, Eric Kendricks

In that scenario, the pick should be easy being Gurley or Gordon. It fits a huge need and they are in a separate tier.

Another possible scenario is:

Tier A- OO, Eli Harold, Eddie Goldman, TJ Clemmings, Cameron Erving
Tier B- Jordan Phillips, Jay Ajayi, Tevin Coleman, Stephone Anthony, PJ Williams

In this scenario, none of the biggest needs are in tier 1, so you either take OO or try to trade down. This is how most teams try to operate and how the Cowboys have been operating. Especially high in the draft. Later rounds, you look for traits and upside and thats when talent evaluation really begins to differ. This is how Anthony Hitchens was a 4th rd pick for us, but ranked a lot lower other places.

 

[xwalker]

The only starter that needs to be upgraded on the line in Brent. While I think we got a couple of good backup LBs in free agency, we still only have 2 starters there, 3 if we get McClain back. I think our safeties will be better this year, and they weren't as horrible as common perception seems to think last year, but if Carr doesn't renegotiate we will need something more at CB, and of course McFadden is currently set to be our starting RB. Yea... I think we need some upgrades pretty bad there.

The second 3tech will likely get as many or more snaps than Brent even if Brent is the starting 1tech. They prefer to have two 3tech types in the Nickel. They could use Hardy at DT in the Nickel on occasion.

 

[Bigtommyb]

Before Hardy was signed I could get it, I really could, but anymore it just seems silly to want to draft either a DE to sit on our 4th spot (at least in pass rushing ability), or a 3-tech to sit behind Crawford. I suppose we could go 1-tech, where we certainly have a need, but I can't see the Cowboys doing that in the first given their history.

I know some of you will say, yes our d-line looks fine this year, but next year we will lose 3 of our key contributors, and yes indeed this is true. However, those are 3 of the only 4 players we really stand to lose next year (Dez being the other one everyone else is a JAG at best) and I believe we will have something like $40 million to start free agency next year, not exactly a crisis situation.

I know some will also say, "You can never have too many pass rushers" and this just doesn't hold water for me. I believe I read somewhere that last year our 4th DE saw something like 5% of snaps. We could draft a RB that would probably see 40% of snaps (and account for 20%+ of our offensive production), a CB who would probably see 90% of snaps, a LB who will likely see 40% of snaps until Lee gets hurt, after which he will see 80% of snaps... or a DE who will see 5% of snaps.

Yes there is the BPA argument but I have two problems with this. 1) chances are no d-linemen will be BPA, they are taken too early too often. Secondly, while that does better help us plan for the future, I believe we are primed to get a Super Bowl now, and I think we should go for a guy that will help get us there this year, not a guy who might come in to replace Hardy next year. So while I wouldn't go crazy about a DE or 3-tech pick (we won't pick a 1-tech, Jones and Marinelli just don't value the position enough) and would understand it is just planning for the future, can someone explain to me why so many around here are obsessed with such a pick?

Because as well as Hayden and Crawford played, their not starters they are depth guys. Hardy wll not be there in the beginning and may only be a one year investment. You draft De/Dt and it turns it into a postion of strength not of WEAKNESS. Its also about rotation and keeping guys fresh for one important focus Rushing that " QB ". We cant keep ignoring this problem .The Ol is superior now its time to get this DL the same way.

 

[endersdragon]

Because as well as Hayden and Crawford played, their not starters they are depth guys. Hardy wll not be there in the beginning and may only be a one year investment. You draft De/Dt and it turns it into a postion of strength not of WEAKNESS. Its also about rotation and keeping guys fresh for one important focus Rushing that " QB ". We cant keep ignoring this problem .The Ol is superior now its time to get this DL the same way.

Crawford was one of the best 3-techs in the league last year. Most definitely starter material. Hayden is a depth guy I agree, but this team just doesn't value 1-techs. Hardy probably won't have his suspension last for more than a few games after which time any DE we draft will be 4th on our depth chart in terms of pass rushing ability (no way does a rookie get more than 6 sacks). I am sorry but I value a starting NB, RB, and LB, more than I value a backup 3-tech or a 4th DE.