Can we Find the Defensive Coaching Equivalent of Kellen Moore?

[Rayman70]

KR calls the plays game day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! hes the passing Coordinator and *** DC..id say hes got his hands all over this and RM can only 50% responsible..

wow

 

[DuncanIso]

We have to hope that we can get through one more season of this soft defense, BBDB, and then hope Kris Richard takes over in 2020.

 

[blueblood70]

wow

lmao they *** out my abbreviation for asstDC.. a ss dc lol this site is so strict

 

[DuncanIso]

We have 2 coaches on D that I consider in the Kellen Moore category. Ben Bloom and Kris Richard. We all pretty much know Kris' track record..but I been hearing about how good Ben Bloom is with the defense for a while now. Bloom will get a chance to be D coord. for somebody soon. Maybe its Dallas if Richard is made HC next year. We may have the best coaches in the league..

Good info.

https://www.dallascowboys.com/team/coaches-roster/ben-bloom

 

[Rayman70]

Good info.

https://www.dallascowboys.com/team/coaches-roster/ben-bloom

good read. Thanks. The guy is very smart,high FB IQ...and has the coaching experience. Its almost time for him to land a DC gig. I think even if we win the SB, Garrett will be elevated into the FO or something and Richard will be made the HC..thus, Ben Bloom will land the DC gig. Love the fact we COULD stay in house. Ben Bloom would bring some new energy and wrinkles on D..same as what Moore does on O.

 

[T-RO]

Don't know details or if he would be a good DC. Do know Colts hired our former Cowboy linebacker guy Matt Eberflus as their DC.

 

[Corso]

Rod Marinelli has enjoyed an illustrious career. Reality? He's old and due for retirement. Coach Richard has done some nice work with the DBs, though I am beyond frustrated with his stubborn insistence on Brown over Jourdan Lewis...and the lack of secondary turnovers.

Now look...this coaching duo could prove me wrong in the balance of the season. This post has nothing to do with changes within the next 13 weeks. We may be Super Bowl bound. We might win it all. If that happens...make Richard DC gawd.

If not...Could be time for changes. A new defensive DC...An innovator. Some real changes. What would a defensive equivalent of Kellen Moore look like? I don't think such a guy is inside the organization.

Jerry might ought to give $10 mil for the Bears, Bills, or Ravens DC. That money aint' capped.

I believe they tried with Rob Ryan and it failed miserably.

Edit: Lol... him and his "Amoeba Defense".

 

[rnr_honeybadger]

I'm not exactly sure we can find the next Kellen Moore, or what we think/ hope Kellen is. But I'm all for promoting Richard and bringing in a defensive line coach that values defensive tackles.

Yes, we need to get away from this philosophy that you can coach up guys and there won’t be any difference between them and someone who is blue chipper. Yes coaching matters, but so does talent. You can not compare guys who have talent with a JAG you are using as an experiment.

 

[rnr_honeybadger]

I believe they tried with Rob Ryan and it failed miserably.

Edit: Lol... him and his "Amoeba Defense".

No one is mistaking Rob Ryan as the Next Kellen Moore of defense. Maybe a guy who looks like he could eat Kellen Moore.

 

[Corso]

No one is mistaking Rob Ryan as the Next Kellen Moore of defense. Maybe a guy who looks like he could eat Kellen Moore.

Not now, but when he was hired, people were hyping him as the next genius of the NFL.
And then he couldn't even coordinate more than 10 men on the field...

 

[TheHerd]

People are really going to freak out after Sunday but when you have a light em up offense you play to only allow FGs. Trading 7 for 3 will get you a win every time.

Defense seems to be more conservative prior to the second half we saw Sunday. But stiffening up in the red zone and holding to 3 is all we can ask for Sunday. Saints will have 400 yards thanks to check downs.

The goal should be win 34-30. Offense scores one more TD and makes Saints settle for one more FG

As long as the opposition makes mistakes we're fine.

 

[Fastpitch Dad]

Then again, if Richard were to be allowed the amount of autonomy that Marinelli has enjoyed under HC Garrett — which DC Kris certainly did not have under hands-on-everything Pete Carroll in SEA — maybe he could be our guy?

With all due respect, weren't we led to believe that Richard has called the defenses the last 2 years?

 

[DuncanIso]

I believe they tried with Rob Ryan and it failed miserably.

Edit: Lol... him and his "Amoeba Defense".

The loss to the Commanders in late 2012 sealed Rob's fate.

 

[DuncanIso]

With all due respect, weren't we led to believe that Richard has called the defenses the last 2 years?

I don't remember the Legion of Boom being a passive Bend But Dont Break defense?!?

Cause that's what we have in Dallas. Since 2013.

 

[xwalker]

.....

A.Woods is 318 pounds. He can stop the run and hold up against double-teams.
- Human Log Woods “should “ be able to stop the run, create penetration vs run for tackles losses and occupy two blockers , that’s what the 1 tech role does, but he’s not always as consistent with it, and I didn’t like the way he was so up and down in 2018, playing great at home games... but struggling on the road. that's why i suspect that he’s yet another one of these guys that seems to be decent and serviceable that we’ve had come and go, but never one that is a constant difference maker.That changes the dynamics how teams cannot control and contain him vs run. (in every game)
They really only had 2 games that I would call struggling in run defense. The Rams playoff game and the Colts game.

And we don’t have to draft 1 tech, 4-3 scheme guys in the 1st round, they generally never get drafted in the first. And we see run stuffers drafted in 1st round as projected 3-4 NT.
I don’t see what’s wrong with projecting these type guys at the least in the 4th mid rounds, but the bigger problem is Rod Marinelli does not value and have high regards for exclusive run stuffers..
Most teams have moved away from mega-sized DTs. Only 1 playoff team had a starting DT over 320 pounds. When averaging the weight of the 2 starting DTs for each playoff team together, the Cowboys were 3rd from the heaviest. Chicago has Akiem Hicks who has gotten big over the years (318 when drafted but listed anywhere from 332 to 352 since he's been with the Bears). The Pats retained Danny Shelton who was a backup last season. Even many 3-4 teams are not using mega-sized NTs. The Rams had Suh at NT and he's about 310.

The zone run blocking scheme put a big damper on mega-sized DTs that were tubs of lard that clogged up the middle. The DTs in 2019 that are over 320 are ones with rare quickness for their size. Snacks and Poe have bee that type but I think both have been limited in the past year or two as those types of players rarely remain quick long term.

Covington is a better backup 1-tech than any 4th DT they had last year.
- And he’s a guy that I’m observing to see if he can succeed and be more consistent than Woods, though I see Covington's listed weight as only 305, his bulky frame seems far wider than that. But I wonder if he could end be a pleasant surprised than what many expect.
After the Cowboys signed Covington, he was still listed on the Texans roster and his weight was over 330 if I recall correctly. He played both NT and 3-4 DE there. I think he is probably in a similar weight range with Woods at this point.

The lack of a legit backup 1-tech was a problem when Woods got injured in the playoff game against the Rams. Woods continued to play but they played Reid on a lot of snaps and he was a player that no other team wanted because he was "on the street" during the season and they Cowboy signed him, cut him and re-signed him during 2018. Daniel Ross was benched after the Seattle game. There was no official report on that but he was not on the injury report but was not active in the Rams game.

I hear a lot a references to getting a bigger 1-tech but by picking Hill they are adding size at 3-tech (Hill 308, Crawford 285). They played Hill at 1-tech on several snaps in the Miami game with Woods out. Many of the past 3-techs or 3-tech projects were more DE/DT tweeners like Crawford that would never be an option at 1-tech. The fact that they're developing a "big" 3-tech is a good sign, IMO.
- I‘m not sure I understand why you’re using Crawford as a comparison example to Hill’s weight , when Tyrone is even not the primary starter at 3 tech role ,, that guy is Maliek Collins, who is listed as 310 pounds,.when you a rotation backup. And the game day active numbers are already slim pickings, you should have to learn how to contribute at both DT spots., even though it’s clear they will be better at one role better than the other,. We need the bodies. Just as Maliek once had to fill in at the 1 tech because of a rash of injuries and the lack of depth (Stephen Paea sudden retiring, etc.)
Crawford started the first 7 games at 3-tech DT last season. Collins was out 3 games and was not near-100% until game 8 which is when he moved backing into the starting 3-tech role and Crawford moved back to starting at RDE. Taco had been starting at RDE the first 7 games. Taco played game 8 as a non-starter and was then benched for 3 games until somebody had an injury issue. Crawford continued to play significant snaps at 3-tech even while starting at RDE because he plays base downs at RDE and pass rush downs at DT. Even this season Crawford played significant snaps at DT in game 1 despite starting at RDE. He experienced injury issues in game 2 which limited his snaps and he was out for the Miami game.

Collins was forced to play a majority of his snaps in 2017 at 1-tech because of injuries to Paea and Price early in the season. That meant a committee of players at 3-tech DT including Irving, Crawford, Ross, Datone Jones & Lewis Neal. Irving, Crawford & Jones were all DE/DT tweeners weighing about 285. Lewis Neal was 269 in pre-draft measurements and listed at 280 with the Cowboys. Ross was listed as high as 305 but was listed at 290 when he was on the KC practice squad.

The other issue is that the second 3-tech DT plays almost as many snaps as the starting 1-tech DT some years. They have 3 basic ways they use the DTs:
3T & 1T in base
3T & 3T type player at 1T position (pass or run likely)
Two 3Tech DTs both playing 3Tech with a big gap in the middle of the DL (3rd & long or other obvious passing situations)

The issue with Watt was how they used him in college. He played a majority of his snaps in a rover LB roles where he looked like a 4-3 LB that blitzed about 80% of the time. He didn't really even play a traditional 3-4 OLB role. It made it hard to project him to the NFL, especially to project him to 4-3 DE.

Randy Gregory played as a 4-3 DE that his college team actually had more focused on stopping the run than rushing the passer. Gregory had an uncanny ability at his size to get under the pads of OLinemen that outweighed him by a large margin and bull-rush them back into the QB. He put OT Flowers (330 pounds) on skates in college. I think Gregory was over 260 when he played last season
- Lets be honest, if you're seeing 237 lb DE prospect, that normally projects to 3-4 OLB, but apparently Gregory's edge skills was so adept and unique that they couldn't pass him over and was determined to have him, even if that meant transitioning him as a 4-3 DE.
The NFL guys have game film tape on these players, they work him out with the position coaches in pre-draft workouts and 30 day-visits, they get chances to see them up close personally, they should know the differences between how their college coaches choose to use them and how they will be used/projected at the NFL level., and per their own scheme.
And i hope no one can throws me the better get off excuse either,.. because Taco’s tape and get off was as slow off the edge as frozen cold syrup.

Frankly as I’ve said before, If Rod can project a 237 lb Gregory to be a 4-3 DE the instant he was drafted by the Cowboys, then Rod should have been able to project a 15 pound heavier, 252 pound TJ Watt to be 4-3 DE
Randy Gregory played 4-3 DE in college and his top job in college was stopping the run. I think you mentioned earlier that you want a 1-tech that can anchor even if he is not necessarily a heavier player than what they've had. The same concept goes for Gregory. He was terrific run defender in college as a 4-3 DE and they didn't do anything to protect him (i.e. He was not a 3rd down pass rush specialist). They drafted him because he was a top 10 type talent that dropped to their late 2nd round pick (#60) which was only 4 picks from being in the 3rd round. It was a roll of the dice on the weed issue but with no weed issues he would have been a top 10 pick. TJ Watt was never going to be a top 10 pick.

Weight is not the only issue when projecting college players to the NFL. As I've said previously, TJ Watt didn't really even play as a standard 3-4 OLB. The way they used him in college made it appear that they were protecting him from constantly going 1 on 1 against OTs in the run game. In a lot of their games he really did look as if he was either a 4-3 LB or 3-4 Inside LB blitzing on the majority of plays as opposed to a straight up 3-4 OLB.

The Cowboys failed on Taco because they somehow overlooked his personality (mental make-up) issues. I'm surprised because in the past several years they've put way more effort into those types of issues ever since they drafted Claiborne without ever interviewing him because they never expected to have the chance to draft him.

We still can't put a grade on Taco's physical ability. We saw this preseason that he looks like a different player when he is putting in some effort.

I'm not certain they would have picked Watt if they didn't pick Taco. They actually had Awuzie rated as a 1st round pick and Stephen Jones implied they considered drafting Awuzie with that pick but there were several CBs they like in the 2nd round and thought the would get a good CB if they waited but would not get a good pass rusher if they waited.
the CB in the 1st round discussion wasn’t Awuzie in accordance reports of the Cowboys value board, that CB reportedly was actually Kevin King of Washiington (as reported by sources at draft time) who went eventually picked by GB Packers very early in the 2nd round.
I heard Stephen Jones on the radio say that they considered Awuzie at that pick. They obviously considered Watt and likely the CB King but the player I specifically heard him mention was Awuzie.

Obviously in retrospect with what we've seen from Watt, even if they had to just use him as a pass rush specialist on 3rd downs, that would be better than having to cut Taco; however, Taco didn't fail because of physical reasons. We don't really know how much physical ability he has because his attitude (poor mental-makeup) sabotaged his chances to succeed.

 

[Fastpitch Dad]

I don't remember the Legion of Boom being a passive Bend But Dont Break defense?!?

Cause that's what we have in Dallas. Since 2013.

Oh I agree with what you said.

I was responding to the criticizing of Rod being the main problem. Also according to the poster I was replying to Richard didn't have that kind of power in Seattle.

 

[conner01]

Any defense that can't pressure the QB doesn't get many sacks at all. Any defense that has a secondary that has no idea how to make plays on the ball aren't going to get many picks. We still don't have one. We have went stretches of 8 games without one. You don't think sacks, pressure and interceptions are important? Lol. Bend but don't break does no favors for the offense. It allows the opponent to drive the field and even if you force a punt, our offense will be starting deep in their territory.

Giants with Eli, Commanders and Miami are 3 of the worst offenses in football. And this defense has forced 2 measly turnovers. One being a fumble recovery on a sack on 4th down deep in our own end when the game was already over with. Meant zero. The other was a fumble recovery inside our own 10 against Miami. This one was more important as it did stop Miami from scoring right before half. We got zero picks against the likes of Eli, Rosen and Keenum. That's pathetic.

You can poo poo sacks and turnovers but they are huge momentum shifters. Defense is the reason we always fail in the divisional round.

We all want sacks and turn overs but they aren’t the most important thing
The games are determined by points, not stats

 

[Toruk_Makto]

I'm not exactly sure we can find the next Kellen Moore, or what we think/ hope Kellen is. But I'm all for promoting Richard and bringing in a defensive line coach that values defensive tackles.

It's funny how everyone is up in arms about our DTs week 3.

But if you go back to the draft everyone was up in arms that we used a premium pick selection on a DT instead of a safety.

It just goes to show you how people put on blinders when convenient.

 

[Whyjerry]

Ryan -> Kiffin -> Marinelli.

Just embarrassing...

The Jones clan and Garrett have no idea what they're doing with that side of the ball.

I am no fan of Marinelli but to suggest Ryan and Kiffin were better is just stupid. Kiffin ran one of the worst defenses in league history. I know the talent level has picked up for Marinelli but please not even close.

 

[Whyjerry]

I am not a fan of Marinelli. That said, I think we all need to see how this defense looks over the next few weeks. It is possible that Dallas was playing vanilla based on the level of competition. If you remember this D played the best it had over a couple decades last year vs. a Drew Brees led Saints. People are getting on Smith and LVE but really no one has played great to start the season. Every level of the defense has had their moments of good play but not a lot of splash play or turnovers. I think that is the main issue. Fans should see how this defense looks over the next few weeks before sounding the alarm.