Clarification: MB3 Rule - Is this still legal?

[stealth]

I wonder if when and if he gets called for it over and over how many are gonna say he is too stupid to change? He clearly doesn't care about his team or teamates and don't even get me tarded on the way he is treating we fans.

 

[JohnL2288]

I wonder if when and if he gets called for it over and over how many are gonna say he is too stupid to change? He clearly doesn't care about his team or teamates and don't even get me tarded on the way he is treating we fans.

:laugh1:

 

[theogt]

Again, guys, the "hands to the face" rule shouldn't even apply to a runner.

Article 4 An offensive blocker cannot:

(a) thrust his hands forward above the frame of an opponent to contact him on the neck, face, or head (Note: Contact in close-line play that is not prolonged and sustained is not a foul);

 

[Hypnotoad]

I wonder if when and if he gets called for it over and over how many are gonna say he is too stupid to change? He clearly doesn't care about his team or teamates and don't even get me tarded on the way he is treating we fans.

It is probably something hes done all his football career. I agree with the assumptions he will be called for it early on as referees learn the rule and he learns to adjust. It is upsetting the league puts in rules that are meant to bring down the value of specific players (when no safety concerns are apparent).

Edit: I recall seeing a few times last year offensive lines going after players necks/throats to prevent them from making plays. So if theogt is right, its more of an extension to the facemask rule than a running stiff arm.

Also where do you find the rules like that, in article form?

 

[BrassCowboy]

From everything I've read about the rule (as reported in the media) he could receive a 15 yard penalty for that play.

no, because that was not stiff arm to face mask. Only face mask and underneath face mask is penalty.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Again, guys, the "hands to the face" rule shouldn't even apply to a runner.

That is not the new rule, that was in place since 2006.

Here is the 2006 rulebook...

(PDF) http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf

The current NFL Rules Digest on the official site states as a use of the hands:

1. Hands cannot be thrust forward above the frame to contact an opponent on the neck, face or head.
   
   Note: The frame is defined as the part of the opponent’s body below the neck that is presented to the blocker.

It may seem like the exact same thing, but there is no distinction between Offensive/defensive player as was in 2006, it just says "Use of Hands."

Source: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules

 

[BrassCowboy]

these would both be penalties...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q3cGgSuorU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8TlNtrpQ6s

this rule sucks.... does anyone else see how the NFL is guiding the whole game to a passing fast offense style game. Look at all the changes:

Defender cannot barely even look at the WR anymore without getting penalized.

They outlaw the stiffarm (in effect) which would de-emphasize some running game strengths.

Protect the hell out of QBs to the point they should be back there wearing dresses.

these among others.

I hate this stiff arm rule because a ball carrier should be able to block for himself rather than being forced to allow the defenders to plow into him.

 

[Hypnotoad]

this rule sucks.... does anyone else see how the NFL is guiding the whole game to a passing fast offense style game. Look at all the changes:

Defender cannot barely even look at the WR anymore without getting penalized.

They outlaw the stiffarm (in effect) which would de-emphasize some running game strengths.

Protect the hell out of QBs to the point they should be back there wearing dresses.

these among others.

I hate this stiff arm rule because a ball carrier should be able to block for himself rather than being forced to allow the defenders to plow into him.

It really sucks they are doing this, the BANG-POW-BOOM! scoring offense attracts more attention than a good defensive struggle. If things continue like this I see teams putting more emphasis on special teams than on their defenses.

The way I read it, is the running back stiff arm now must always make contact on a defenders body/shoulders/chest, no more hits to the head. Upsetting.

 

[theogt]

That is not the new rule, that was in place since 2006.

Here is the 2006 rulebook...

(PDF) http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf

The current NFL Rules Digest on the official site states as a use of the hands:

It may seem like the exact same thing, but there is no distinction between Offensive/defensive player as was in 2006, it just says "Use of Hands."

Source: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules

From everything I've read, the rule was not changed, it's just being emphasized. Thus, the 2006 rule is the same rule. The digest of rules on the website is not an adequate representation of the rules; it's really just a summary.

In order for it to be a penalty they must have actually changed the language of the rule to not include "blocker."

 

[Hypnotoad]

From everything I've read, the rule was not changed, it's just being emphasized. Thus, the 2006 rule is the same rule. The digest of rules on the website is not an adequate representation of the rules; it's really just a summary.

In order for it to be a penalty they must have actually changed the language of the rule to not include "blocker."

I hope your right... I just read some more regarding runners ability to use hands...

1. A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms but no other player on offense may use hands or arms to obstruct an opponent by grasping with hands, pushing, or encircling any part of his body during a block. Hands (open or closed) can be thrust forward to initially contact an opponent on or outside the opponent’s frame, but the blocker immediately must work to bring his hands on or inside the frame.

From that reading, it seems a punch/stiff arm is allowed. BUT a double punch, or repetitive blows from the running back will not be allowed. It doesn't differentiate hits to the neck or face mask, as long as its not prolonged. If you stiff arm someone on the neck, jsut dont keep your hand there for a prolonged time.

 

[theogt]

I hope your right... I just read some more regarding runners ability to use hands...

Yeah...see that quoted portion is just a summary of two separate rules (12-1-2 and 12-1-3 on page 77) from the 2006 rule book. The problem with summarizing is that they can leave out material terms that effect the construction of the language.

It really depends on if they're including a "runner" in the definition of "blocker". I'm not sure if they are or not. If they are, it's a penalty, if not Barber's okay and only grabbing the facemask is a penalty.

I really think this is just a case of the media being confused.

 

[theogt]

For reference, here's the entire rule from 2006, which apparently was not altered in 2008.

Section 1 Blocking, Use of Hands, Arms, and Body

Article 1 A player of either team may block (obstruct or impede) an opponent at any time, provided that the act is not:

(a) pass interference
(b) illegal contact
(c) fair catch interference
(d) clipping against a non-runner
(e) an illegal chop block
(f) an illegal crackback block
(g) an illegal low block during a free kick, scrimmage kick, or after a change of possession
(h) unnecessary roughness
(i) interference with a passer
(j) an illegal cut block
(k) interference with a kicker
(l) offensive or defensive holding
(m) illegal use of hands
(n) tripping

Article 2 An offensive player cannot obstruct or impede an opponent by grasping him with his hands or encircling any part of a defender’s body with his arms, except in the following situations:

(a) If he is a runner. A runner may ward off opponents with his hands and arms. He also may lay his hand on a teammate or push him into an opponent, but he may not grasp or hold on to a teammate; or
(b) During a loose ball. An offensive player may use his hands/arms legally to block or otherwise push or pull an opponent out of the way in a personal attempt to recover the ball. See specific fumble, pass, or kick rules and especially 6-2-5-S-N. 1; or
(c) During a kick. A kicking team player may use his hands/arms to ward off or to push or pull aside a receiver who is legally or illegally attempting to obstruct his attempt to proceed downfield; or
(d) During a legal block.

Penalty: For illegal use of hands, arms, or body by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.

Article 3 An offensive player is permitted to block an opponent by contacting him with his head, shoulders, hands, and/or outer surface of the forearm, or with any other part of his body.

A blocker may use his arms, or open or closed hands, to contact an opponent on or outside the opponent’s frame (the body of an opponent below the neck that is presented to the blocker). If a blocker’s arms or hands are outside an opponent’s frame, it is a foul if the blocker materially restricts him. The blocker immediately must work to bring his hands inside the opponent’s frame, and as the play develops, the blocker is permitted to work for and maintain his position against an opponent, provided that he does not illegally clip or illegally push from behind.

Article 4 An offensive blocker cannot:

(a) thrust his hands forward above the frame of an opponent to contact him on the neck, face, or head (Note: Contact in close-line play that is not prolonged and sustained is not a foul);

(b) charge or fall into the back of an opponent above the waist, or use his hands or arms to push an opponent from behind in a manner that affects his movement, except in close-line play (the guideline for officials to use for illegal use of hands in the back above the waist is: if either hand is on the back, it is a foul. If both hands are on the opponent’s side, it is not a foul);

 

[AsthmaField]

My guess is that it's going to be a common sense sort of thing. If the runner holds his arm out stiff and pushes off of the tackler (but not his facemask) it won't be a penalty. However, if the runner hauls off and does what is essentially an open handed punch to the defender, I think there's a good chance you see a penalty.

The second method is what Barber usually applied to the tackler, so I do think it will hurt Marion somewhat.

I told my wife last season when Barber was knocking the crap out of people that the NFL was going to make it a penalty. I really wish I had been wrong.

 

[theogt]

My guess is that it's going to be a common sense sort of thing. If the runner holds his arm out stiff and pushes off of the tackler (but not his facemask) it won't be a penalty. However, if the runner hauls off and does what is essentially an open handed punch to the defender, I think there's a good chance you see a penalty.

The second method is what Barber usually applied to the tackler, so I do think it will hurt Marion somewhat.

I told my wife last season when Barber was knocking the crap out of people that the NFL was going to make it a penalty. I really wish I had been wrong.

I don't see how they could even penalize that. According to the rules it's not a penalty (unless a runner is also considered a blocker).

 

[AsthmaField]

I don't see how they could even penalize that. According to the rules it's not a penalty (unless a runner is also considered a blocker).

I understand what you're saying, but I think we must be missing something somewhere because I've heard that running backs won't be able to use stiff arms like they did before.

You say that is for blockers but isn't there one that applies to ballcarriers? Grabbing the face mask has always been illegal for anyone, ballcarriers included, but maybe they're saying they're going to emphasize the rule you quoted above more for runners?

I don't know. I still think if it looks like a punch the refs are going to call it but if it looks like a stiff arm (simply pushing the tackler away) they won't. I don't know that for sure but common sense says that will be the change (if there is one).

I hope you are correct because that is great news for Barber.

 

[Hoofbite]

I thought the rule allowed for no grabbing on the offenses part.

Who knows. Im sure there will be a flag or two this season.

 

[Hostile]

For the record, the most effective use of the stiff arm is to the lead shoulder. If you can get it there it seriously alters the would be tackler's balance and center of gravity. A stiff arm to the chest or face area doesn't do this and they can still dive into you if it isn't timed exactly perfect. The stiff arm to the shoulder doesn't allow them to ever square up and get a decent shot. The best they can hope is to have the sideline save them. It looks to me like this is where Barber hits most people.

In other words, I don't think there's a whole lot to be all that worried about. Yes, I've seen him hit near the face, but a very low % of the shots he delivers are really near the face. He seems to prefer shoulders and chest. I've even seen him hit the back of the shoulder and force the tackler on past.

He knows what he is doing.

 

[stealth]

For the record, the most effective use of the stiff arm is to the lead shoulder. If you can get it there it seriously alters the would be tackler's balance and center of gravity. A stiff arm to the chest or face area doesn't do this and they can still dive into you if it isn't timed exactly perfect. The stiff arm to the shoulder doesn't allow them to ever square up and get a decent shot. The best they can hope is to have the sideline save them. It looks to me like this is where Barber hits most people.

In other words, I don't think there's a whole lot to be all that worried about. Yes, I've seen him hit near the face, but a very low % of the shots he delivers are really near the face. He seems to prefer shoulders and chest. I've even seen him hit the back of the shoulder and force the tackler on past.

He knows what he is doing.

I appreciate the stiffarm lesson from a running backs perspective.
I can't relate to that position at all I was too busy playing football.:

 

[Bob Sacamano]

From everything I've read about the rule (as reported in the media) he could receive a 15 yard penalty for that play.

I believe you're right, he can't use the stiff-arm to move the player's head

the punching motion is fineable

 

[jobberone]

A punch to the head is going to draw a penalty IMO. They are trying to protect players from permanent injury. Players do need to stay away from the head.

I think MB is going to have to learn to use it differently and learn when not to use it. He does punch with it. I loved it but too thought it was a matter of time. It's too dangerous. And I'm talking about effects years down the road.