Clint Eastwood or John Wayne

Staggerlee

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burmafrd;4395425 said:
most of your post was garbage but I will address the parts worth responding too.

First about the text books; they are standard all over the country so take your BS and stick it. It does not jibe with your PC little mind so you reject it.

:laugh2: That was all I needed to read right there. You have simultaneously displayed your ignorance and effectively ended this conversation. I will end it on this note however. I have had multiple professors, all with phds teaching at Ohio State, raise issues in our history classes concerning the inaccuracy of text books and how shoddy the history classes in middle/high school are. But surely they are just rejecting them too because they don't fit with their "PC little minds". Maybe you should come here and give them a lecture sometime, you know just to set them straight.
 

bbgun

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Sam I Am;4395478 said:
You need to read up on your Lincoln history. His views of slavery in general began as a child from the relationship between him and his father. (he felt his father treated him as slave labor. Selling his labor to neighbors and taking all of the money) While his views weren't as strong early on in life (ie, planning to free slaves) as they were at the end, they were definitely growing has he got older and not just because the southern states tried to secede from the Union.

I'm not saying that Lincoln didn't consider slavery to be a profound moral failing. I'm just saying that he never would have gone to war over slavery alone. Seceding from the Union forced his hand.

The southern states were seceding BECAUSE the Union wanted to free the slaves. If they weren't being freed in the first place, the Confederates wouldn't have tried to secede in the first place!

Wrong. The Union wanted to stop the expansion of slavery and that's it. Who knows? Human bondage in the South might have lasted until the 20th Century absent the Civil War.
 

burmafrd

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chip_gilkey;4395482 said:
:laugh2: That was all I needed to read right there. You have simultaneously displayed your ignorance and effectively ended this conversation. I will end it on this note however. I have had multiple professors, all with phds teaching at Ohio State, raise issues in our history classes concerning the inaccuracy of text books and how shoddy the history classes in middle/high school are. But surely they are just rejecting them too because they don't fit with their "PC little minds". Maybe you should come here and give them a lecture sometime, you know just to set them straight.

WHy would I waste my time on closed minds like yours?

YOU obviously are unaware that most textbooks are written today with California in mind. And that was where that book from PA was published.

But go ahead and keep your head in the sand.


I do living history; we use letters and diaries from the times we portray. Not what was in Newspapers or some politicians speech.

So frankly I do know a whole lot more about how things were REALLY back then then you will ever know.
 

Stautner

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iceberg;4388997 said:
never much a wayne fan - like many "actors" they're 1 dimensional. clint can get past that to a degree.

I have to disagree. Both are/were fairly one dimensional. Eastwood's acting career was built on being the somewhat mysterious ******, whether the old westerns or the Dirty Harry roles, just as Waynes acting career was built mostly on the westerns. The both had other roles, but that's still what it boils down to.

Eastwood is probably a bit better actor, althoug like Wayne he got a lot of mileage out of replaying similar characters a lot.

I think the question is really more about the type of character each is known most for, and not an in depth analysis of the acting skills of each. In that regard what it boils down to is Eastwood is typically the bigger bad *** in the movies, conflicted and teetering between immorality and doing something good for people. Wayne the more admirable character, steadfast in his beliefs and never wavering from his principles. Both were great.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Sam I Am;4395478 said:
You need to read up on your Lincoln history. His views of slavery in general began as a child from the relationship between him and his father. (he felt his father treated him as slave labor. Selling his labor to neighbors and taking all of the money) While his views weren't as strong early on in life (ie, planning to free slaves) as they were at the end, they were definitely growing has he got older and not just because the southern states tried to secede from the Union.

The southern states were seceding BECAUSE the Union wanted to free the slaves. If they weren't being freed in the first place, the Confederates wouldn't have tried to secede in the first place!

Don't really agree with this NYC. I do acknowledge that Slavery was an issue but the bigger issue with the South was States Rights. That was what really drove Secession IMO. Economic and Social differences between the Northern and Southern States were pretty extreme and as Lincoln was elected into office, that divide only widened. Slavery was only one of these issues. An important one but not the driving force IMO.

The South really only had one economic strategy. That was to grow cotton. They could not do this without Slavery. The North's introduction of emancipation was really a death blow to the South and all who lived in the South. The fact that the North had no interest making emancipation nation wide suggests to me that this was more of a ploy to gain access to Southern Territories more then anything. Not saying that the South was right in their Slave Based economy but the reality is that if you took that away from the South, they would have starved and not only the White Southerners but the Slaves as well. Clearly, this was not something the North ever cared about. The end of the Civil War demonstrated that the North had no sympathy for Black or White and how they would survive. Many, many starved after the Civil War and the same would have happened had the War not occured. In fact, I believe that had the North taken control of the South with no War, they simply would have continued to use Slave Labor. How else do you take advantage of this very rich cotton cash crop? We will never know on this last but it makes some sense to me that this is the direction that this might have played out.

States Rights meant that the Northern dominated Federal Government could not dictate to States what could and could not be allowed. To me, that was the key for the South. Money drove the entire effort for the North IMO. Slavery was a good tool for the North to employ against the South but I don't believe it was Slavery over Money. JMO.
 

Staggerlee

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burmafrd;4395519 said:
WHy would I waste my time on closed minds like yours?

YOU obviously are unaware that most textbooks are written today with California in mind. And that was where that book from PA was published.

But go ahead and keep your head in the sand.


I do living history; we use letters and diaries from the times we portray. Not what was in Newspapers or some politicians speech.

So frankly I do know a whole lot more about how things were REALLY back then then you will ever know.

Wait, letters and diaries are a viable means of historical research?! I never would have known! Gee all they teach us history majors is to read newspapers and take it as it says. Biases, critical thinking? You, sir, are opening up a whole new world for me that these history professors aren't showing us. Are there any more examples of primary sources that you can enlighten me about? I don't even know why I go to college to become a historian, I should just have you teach me.
 

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The states rights had almost everything to do with slavery due to their industry that dominated the south. (which wasn't just cotton) The south were farmers and the north were businessman (mostly anyhow) The south wanted slaves to work the fields and farms, the north wanted to abolish slavery. While they said they just wanted to stop the import of slaves, that was only going to be the first step. The north's attempt an an initial compromise that the south wasn't willing to make. (they knew what it was going to lead too)

Today it no longer matters. Slavery is gone and rightfully so and they are all dead. :D
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Sam I Am;4395655 said:
The states rights had almost everything to do with slavery due to their industry that dominated the south. (which wasn't just cotton) The south were farmers and the north were businessman (mostly anyhow) The south wanted slaves to work the fields and farms, the north wanted to abolish slavery. While they said they just wanted to stop the import of slaves, that was only going to be the first step. The north's attempt an an initial compromise that the south wasn't willing to make. (they knew what it was going to lead too)

Today it no longer matters. Slavery is gone and rightfully so and they are all dead. :D


I'm sorry. I can't agree.
 

burmafrd

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chip_gilkey;4395584 said:
Wait, letters and diaries are a viable means of historical research?! I never would have known! Gee all they teach us history majors is to read newspapers and take it as it says. Biases, critical thinking? You, sir, are opening up a whole new world for me that these history professors aren't showing us. Are there any more examples of primary sources that you can enlighten me about? I don't even know why I go to college to become a historian, I should just have you teach me.


well if you had actually read some of them you would not be so ignorant now.
 

burmafrd

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Sam I Am;4395655 said:
The states rights had almost everything to do with slavery due to their industry that dominated the south. (which wasn't just cotton) The south were farmers and the north were businessman (mostly anyhow) The south wanted slaves to work the fields and farms, the north wanted to abolish slavery. While they said they just wanted to stop the import of slaves, that was only going to be the first step. The north's attempt an an initial compromise that the south wasn't willing to make. (they knew what it was going to lead too)

Today it no longer matters. Slavery is gone and rightfully so and they are all dead. :D


well you are wrong. You do realize how few slaveowners in the south there really were, right? Of course they fanned the flames; but it was other things that stoked the fires as well. states rights did NOT have everything to do with slavery. That was only PART of it.
 

arglebargle

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ABQCOWBOY;4395582 said:
Don't really agree with this NYC. I do acknowledge that Slavery was an issue but the bigger issue with the South was States Rights. That was what really drove Secession IMO. Economic and Social differences between the Northern and Southern States were pretty extreme and as Lincoln was elected into office, that divide only widened. Slavery was only one of these issues. An important one but not the driving force IMO.

The South really only had one economic strategy. That was to grow cotton. They could not do this without Slavery. The North's introduction of emancipation was really a death blow to the South and all who lived in the South. The fact that the North had no interest making emancipation nation wide suggests to me that this was more of a ploy to gain access to Southern Territories more then anything. Not saying that the South was right in their Slave Based economy but the reality is that if you took that away from the South, they would have starved and not only the White Southerners but the Slaves as well. Clearly, this was not something the North ever cared about. The end of the Civil War demonstrated that the North had no sympathy for Black or White and how they would survive. Many, many starved after the Civil War and the same would have happened had the War not occured. In fact, I believe that had the North taken control of the South with no War, they simply would have continued to use Slave Labor. How else do you take advantage of this very rich cotton cash crop? We will never know on this last but it makes some sense to me that this is the direction that this might have played out.

States Rights meant that the Northern dominated Federal Government could not dictate to States what could and could not be allowed. To me, that was the key for the South. Money drove the entire effort for the North IMO. Slavery was a good tool for the North to employ against the South but I don't believe it was Slavery over Money. JMO.

This is sorta the feel-good explanation of the conflict.

States Rights is a conveniant excuse. Clay, Calhoun and their ilk had used the Federal Government for decades to quash northern states attempts to exercise 'states rights' in regards to slavery.

For the North it was about the secessions, as the incoming administration had done absolutely nothing with regard to slavery. For the south it was all about slavery, or 'our way of life'. Check this link to several states declarations of secession. Search for 'slave' in them and see how much it was used as justification.

http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html

The conjecture on the collapse of cotton causing the decimation of the south after the war flies in the face of certain truisms. You fight a war mostly on your territory, you will have severe consequences. Especially with the infrastructure being destroyed, reaching its zenith with things like Sherman's March. With a more graduated approach (most likely under Lincoln, given insights from his writings), even if there had been a peaceable 'Northern Takeover', this decimation would likely not have occured.

Cotton was certainly grown profitably after the civil war.

So much money was tied up in the actual chattel slavery, that it lead the southern aristocracy to willfully blind positions. Numerous American leaders understood that "slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil" - Robert E. Lee 1856. Some of the founding fathers considered it failure of the new country, and a problem that they were foisting off on their grandchildren and great grandchildren. And that was well before King Cotton.
 

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burmafrd;4395787 said:
well if you had actually read some of them you would not be so ignorant now.

Are you saying that newspapers and statesmen were of no importance in the period? That they did not influence or impress their ideas on people?
 

Staggerlee

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burmafrd;4395787 said:
well if you had actually read some of them you would not be so ignorant now.

What letters? and what am I ignorant about? The only solid historical topic we have broached was the military might of the Native Americans (which, by the way, countless letters of the French colonists show great concern and anxiety over the Iroquois nation turning against them and wiping them off them map).

So please, what ignorance of mine is going to be remedied by what letters?
 

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arglebargle;4395814 said:
Are you saying that newspapers and statesmen were of no importance in the period? That they did not influence or impress their ideas on people?


not as much as you would think. And in many rural areas they never even saw a newspaper.
 

burmafrd

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chip_gilkey;4395828 said:
What letters? and what am I ignorant about? The only solid historical topic we have broached was the military might of the Native Americans (which, by the way, countless letters of the French colonists show great concern and anxiety over the Iroquois nation turning against them and wiping them off them map).

So please, what ignorance of mine is going to be remedied by what letters?

As regards the french colonists of course they were worried and afraid and they had reason to believe,

But of course when one takes the long view it is very different and very hard to do for some people.

What I refered to was what those letters and diaries said about the common man and woman of the times. And from those that came before and during the civil war directly contradict the PC version that most historians parrot at this time.
 

arglebargle

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burmafrd;4395425 said:
.....

Now as regards the Indians.

No they could not have done it for the following reasons.

1) The europeans would have kept coming; and the diseases bought by the Europeans would have done it no matter what.

2) the Indians were never organized enough to really get the job done anyway.

3) The Indian mentality as regards war never had a chance of militarily beating the Europeans. Europeans were used to wars lasting years; Indians were not. The Indians flat out did not have the staying power or patience.

Pretty good points, imo. Only Tecumsah and crew really understood, and they were unable to build a sustainable coalition against the invaders.

By the 16th and early 17th century, diseases and such had already decimated the native American populations, with some projecting it falling by over 50%.
 

arglebargle

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burmafrd;4395830 said:
not as much as you would think. And in many rural areas they never even saw a newspaper.

Ah, I have read a number of accounts of a newspaper showing up in a town in this period, and the people all gathering to have it read aloud to them.

While that makes it a special occasion, yes, it also makes it an important occasion.
 
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