CM Punk signs multi-fight deal with UFC

[Yakuza Rich]

They are, you BOTH agreed to the contract. You can not agree to something, take money, then say, wait a minute, I dont agree to that contract.

It's not an independent contractor agreement. The contract is essentially null and void. T

That is why Punk was able to sign with UFC despite his contract having a non-compete clause after he is done with WWE....you *legally* cannot have a no compete clause if you're an independent contractor. As Punk said, the WWE contract is not worth the paper it is printed on because of the flim-flam independent contractor status that Vince uses to benefit him for tax purposes, but tries and treat them like employees. Legally, he can't have it both ways. Vince knows this and that's why when Punk got himself an attorney the no compete clause vanquished and there's nothing the WWE could do about it.





YR

 

[CashMan]

It's not an independent contractor agreement. The contract is essentially null and void. T

That is why Punk was able to sign with UFC despite his contract having a non-compete clause after he is done with WWE....you *legally* cannot have a no compete clause if you're an independent contractor. As Punk said, the WWE contract is not worth the paper it is printed on because of the flim-flam independent contractor status that Vince uses to benefit him for tax purposes, but tries and treat them like employees. Legally, he can't have it both ways. Vince knows this and that's why when Punk got himself an attorney the no compete clause vanquished and there's nothing the WWE could do about it.





YR

I think he bypasses the contract, because the UFC is not professional wrestling, if he signed with TNA, I bet you, there would be a law suit. Also, he has yet to fight anyone, IF he fights someone, before that 1yr, then they might be able to do something.

 

[CashMan]

What I got out of the interview was, he took WWE to court for, royalties for the video game/mech sales.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I think he bypasses the contract, because the UFC is not professional wrestling, if he signed with TNA, I bet you, there would be a law suit. Also, he has yet to fight anyone, IF he fights someone, before that 1yr, then they might be able to do something.

You don't understand...the WWE contract states that there is a non-compete clause with UFC.

If he was under an employee contract with a non-compete clause and it specifically says 'you can't work for UFC', then he wouldn't be able to work with UFC.

But since it is an independent contractor agreement, Punk can work for anybody he pleases because the nature of an independent contractor agreement is you can work for anybody.

Now, a company with a *true* independent contractor agreement could say 'you have to work these dates' and you are expected to work those dates. But, the essence of the independent contractor agreement is one can work for any company.

In your analogy of the cabinet maker, if I'm hiring an independent contractor I can say 'I need for you to work 9 to 5 on Friday, Saturday and Monday and expect to have X, Y and Z done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Meanwhile, the cabinet maker could work for anybody else outside of those hours I scheduled.

Vince does it because it says him a lot of money on taxes and potential liability. He gets away with it because most wrestlers are afraid to question it and the most one could really do is take it to court and the court would say 'Vince, you can't make him not go to TNA if he wants to because he's an independent contractor.' The wrestler can then go where he wants, but he will burn the bridge with Vince.

The other part is that by its very nature, the WWE has such a heavy schedule that it would be hard to wrestle for WWE and another company because of the travel and you do need some rest.

I work with independent contractors on a daily basis in the world of athletics. A friend of mine is an attorney and was an agent for a pro wrestler (Vampiro). Anybody with any legal knowledge will tell you that the WWE independent contractor contract is a joke and the only thing that keeps wrestlers from breaking non-compete clauses is either they don't know the legalities or they know that they will likely have to go back to Vince sometime and one way or another, they will get punished for it.




YR

 

[CashMan]

You don't understand...the WWE contract states that there is a non-compete clause with UFC.

If he was under an employee contract with a non-compete clause and it specifically says 'you can't work for UFC', then he wouldn't be able to work with UFC.

But since it is an independent contractor agreement, Punk can work for anybody he pleases because the nature of an independent contractor agreement is you can work for anybody.

Now, a company with a *true* independent contractor agreement could say 'you have to work these dates' and you are expected to work those dates. But, the essence of the independent contractor agreement is one can work for any company.

In your analogy of the cabinet maker, if I'm hiring an independent contractor I can say 'I need for you to work 9 to 5 on Friday, Saturday and Monday and expect to have X, Y and Z done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Meanwhile, the cabinet maker could work for anybody else outside of those hours I scheduled.

Vince does it because it says him a lot of money on taxes and potential liability. He gets away with it because most wrestlers are afraid to question it and the most one could really do is take it to court and the court would say 'Vince, you can't make him not go to TNA if he wants to because he's an independent contractor.' The wrestler can then go where he wants, but he will burn the bridge with Vince.

The other part is that by its very nature, the WWE has such a heavy schedule that it would be hard to wrestle for WWE and another company because of the travel and you do need some rest.

I work with independent contractors on a daily basis in the world of athletics. A friend of mine is an attorney and was an agent for a pro wrestler (Vampiro). Anybody with any legal knowledge will tell you that the WWE independent contractor contract is a joke and the only thing that keeps wrestlers from breaking non-compete clauses is either they don't know the legalities or they know that they will likely have to go back to Vince sometime and one way or another, they will get punished for it.




YR

I understand what you are saying, these are the facts I see: He left in February, and it is December, and he has yet to fight. IMO, if he fights before Feb, you are 100% right, if he doesn't, then the 1yr non compete, makes sense.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I understand what you are saying, these are the facts I see: He left in February, and it is December, and he has yet to fight. IMO, if he fights before Feb, you are 100% right, if he doesn't, then the 1yr non compete, makes sense.

He wasn't fired until his wedding day which I believe was September 1st. The non-compete clause is for after he has been terminated (or a wrestler finishes out) from the contract.




YR

 

[CashMan]

He wasn't fired until his wedding day which I believe was September 1st. The non-compete clause is for after he has been terminated (or a wrestler finishes out) from the contract.




YR

I bet it ends from the last day he worked.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I bet it ends from the last day he worked.

I'm telling you it doesn't. Mainly because it is a contract and the timeframe of 'work' is based on the length of the contract, not when the person last actually worked.




YR

 

[CashMan]

I'm telling you it doesn't. Mainly because it is a contract and the timeframe of 'work' is based on the length of the contract, not when the person last actually worked.




YR

I don't think either of us are lawyers, or have seen the contract. I do not think we know if the contract is overall days worked, and time off that he was suppose to get, and didn't speed the contract up or if it is from his last day or work. I will say this. IF he works a day before(2yr from), his last day of work, you were right, if not, then I would say, it would be safe to speculate, I was right.

Let us agree to disagree, because right now, it is all speculative.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I don't think either of us are lawyers, or have seen the contract. I do not think we know if the contract is overall days worked, and time off that he was suppose to get, and didn't speed the contract up or if it is from his last day or work. I will say this. IF he works a day before(2yr from), his last day of work, you were right, if not, then I would say, it would be safe to speculate, I was right.

Let us agree to disagree, because right now, it is all speculative.

I'm not an attorney, but I did study law when I was in college, particularly contract law. I have seen the broad overview of WWE contracts due to my friend being an agent for a pro wrestler that worked for WCW. He's had other wrestlers ask him for legal advice and for a long time, we have discussed how ridiculous the independent contractor status for a pro wrestler is. I've also got a few other friends that deal with contract law in civil litigation cases.

I just don't know of any instance where one could say 'even though you were still under contract, we consider your last day to be the last day you worked.' It just doesn't work that way. If it did or if there were some instances that it did, I would change my tune. Pro wrestlers had 'no compete clauses' in their contracts in the 90's as well...and jumped shipped from WWF/E to WCW without the fear of legal reprisal. The reason being is that the no-compete clause is null and void when we are using the independent contractor status. And since WCW paid so well (in fact, sometimes far better than Vince) and there was some thought that WCW may shut Vince down, wrestlers had no problem jumping ship despite those no-compete clauses.





YR

 

[CashMan]

I'm not an attorney, but I did study law when I was in college, particularly contract law. I have seen the broad overview of WWE contracts due to my friend being an agent for a pro wrestler that worked for WCW. He's had other wrestlers ask him for legal advice and for a long time, we have discussed how ridiculous the independent contractor status for a pro wrestler is. I've also got a few other friends that deal with contract law in civil litigation cases.

I just don't know of any instance where one could say 'even though you were still under contract, we consider your last day to be the last day you worked.' It just doesn't work that way. If it did or if there were some instances that it did, I would change my tune. Pro wrestlers had 'no compete clauses' in their contracts in the 90's as well...and jumped shipped from WWF/E to WCW without the fear of legal reprisal. The reason being is that the no-compete clause is null and void when we are using the independent contractor status. And since WCW paid so well (in fact, sometimes far better than Vince) and there was some thought that WCW may shut Vince down, wrestlers had no problem jumping ship despite those no-compete clauses.





YR

I think this is an extreme. I know in the case of Bret Hart, it was like a 30-90 day non compete, and that is why you saw him referee a match, instead of participating it. IF it garbage like you saw, show me someone who challenged it and won. And so far Punk has not, until he competes in UFC or another venue. IF your friend, dealt with WCW and indys, I do not know, how close those contracts were/are to WWF.

But, once again, neither of us, have seen his contract. It is all speculative.

 

[Szczepanik]

I think it's a joke to let a guy with no prior athletic background jump right into the UFC. Lesnar was an all world wrestler (the real kind).

I realize he's 36 and time is not on his side but he should have to prove he's capable before getting a shot at the highest level.

He has backgrounds in multiple disciplines and regularly trains within those disciplines. Randy Couture started MMA around 36? He had a wrestling background though.

They will start him off with bottom feeder fighters, but with a top camp I wouldn't be surprised if he is able to rack up a few wins and stay as a gatekeeper within the division. He is being brought in because the UFC cards they have are watered down, and they need a top draw with most of their champions either on the shelf with injuries or defending their belts once per year.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I think this is an extreme. I know in the case of Bret Hart, it was like a 30-90 day non compete, and that is why you saw him referee a match, instead of participating it. IF it garbage like you saw, show me someone who challenged it and won. And so far Punk has not, until he competes in UFC or another venue. IF your friend, dealt with WCW and indys, I do not know, how close those contracts were/are to WWF.

But, once again, neither of us, have seen his contract. It is all speculative.

Not sure how it is 'speculative' when you're dealing with independent contractor status. The legalities are pretty cut and dry.

For instance, I have a lot of friends that are golf instructors and they work at golf courses as 'independent contractors.' Their contracts are fairly standard...you have to abide by a code of conduct and you have to log so many hours on the range. There may be some other minor details such as giving a free junior clinic once a year, etc. But, there is no 'non-compete' clause. They can and do go to other ranges and other areas to teach lessons. And the golf courses seek them out because they look at the instructor as an amenity for the course....i.e. students of the instructor may stop in for dinner, pay to play golf or seek a membership. Despite that, they are free to go to any other golf course they want in their free time and give lessons (and they do it frequently) because they are an independent contractor. If the course didn't want them to do that, then they would have to make the instructor an employee. And yes, many courses have employees that are instructors and still hire independent contractors to give golf lessons as well.

Bret Hart has said that he wanted to go to work right away and practically begged for Bischoff to get him on TV while he was hot and came up with numerous suggestions, but Bischoff shot everything down and it was apparent to him that Hogan was trying to undercut Bret.

I could see your point to some degree if Punk doesn't fight by September of 2015. But if he fights in, say...April, it's apparent to me that the non-compete clause is a joke. Even still, it's something I am confident...having talked to numerous experts on this very subject for years...that any wrestler that wants to take the non-compete clause to court could do so and win easily. It's the very basis of the definition of 'independent contractor.' You get to set who you want to work for, what services you will perform and when you will work. It's mainly a case-by-case basis for work.





YR

 

[big dog cowboy]

I'm telling you it doesn't. Mainly because it is a contract and the timeframe of 'work' is based on the length of the contract, not when the person last actually worked.

YR

No dog in the fight but this just 'sounds' right to me from what I've read last spring/summer after Punk "quit" WWE.

 

[Risen Star]

He has backgrounds in multiple disciplines and regularly trains within those disciplines. Randy Couture started MMA around 36? He had a wrestling background though.

They will start him off with bottom feeder fighters, but with a top camp I wouldn't be surprised if he is able to rack up a few wins and stay as a gatekeeper within the division. He is being brought in because the UFC cards they have are watered down, and they need a top draw with most of their champions either on the shelf with injuries or defending their belts once per year.

I agree with Nate Diaz. Letting Brooks into the UFC with no fighting background cheapens the other fighters on the roster.

He regularly trains so much that he doesn't carry a belt in any discipline. He has dabbled in it, is what you mean.

It's a cash grab for Dana, but it's something that long term could hurt the promotion that is still fighting for legitimacy as a mainstream sport.

 

[CashMan]

A few things:

Train for 6 months
Maybe UFC Chicago
Debut on PPV


What kind of time line is that? Novemberish 2015?

 

[Yakuza Rich]

I agree with Nate Diaz. Letting Brooks into the UFC with no fighting background cheapens the other fighters on the roster.

He regularly trains so much that he doesn't carry a belt in any discipline. He has dabbled in it, is what you mean.

It's a cash grab for Dana, but it's something that long term could hurt the promotion that is still fighting for legitimacy as a mainstream sport.

I don't think MMA is fighting for legitimacy as a mainstream sport.

I think what is happening is people have tried to compare its popularity with boxing's popularity from the 1980's and earlier. They see that MMA is nowhere near as popular as boxing once was and they conclude that it is not over with the mainstream. However, I think it is very over with the mainstream, it's just that at one time the popular sport in this country was boxing. And you had a universal cultural icon in Muhammad Ali. It's a different era with a different culture, so it's not going to be as popular as boxing was. Baseball isn't nearly as popular now as boxing was, but it doesn't mean that baseball isn't considered a legitimate sport to care about in the mainstream. And hell, baseball isn't nearly as popular as it once was either.

In the end, I don't think anybody will care enough to cheapen the background of the other fighters. It's not going to be a clown show circus and Punk is going to be a middleweight which is far different from the popularity that the heavyweights carry. Even if Punk goes in there and embarrasses himself, it will be forgotten about in a short time. And it will get more eyeballs on the product and if it is properly marketed, they can use that extra attention to promote the other fighters.




YR

 

[Risen Star]

I don't think MMA is fighting for legitimacy as a mainstream sport.

Then you don't listen to Dana White when he speaks. Of course they are. They want to be as big or bigger than the NFL.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

He also doesn't understand, it doesn't matter, if you are the best wrestler, you should or shouldn't be the champ, it is about selling merchandise, and what the people want. Cena sells more than Daniel Bryan, and he doesnt understand.

Yeah...I'm not sure that's entirely the case. He pointed out the fact that he was out selling Cena in merchandise at the time he was the champion and they still didn't have him main event on some of his PPV's as champion and they didn't have him main event at WM, instead they had Cena and Rock despite the fact that Punk was outselling Cena in merchandise.

I don't know really.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I bet it ends from the last day he worked.

He talked about it in his podcast. He was still an employee of WWE because Vince and HHH had both called him on separate occasions about talking to him about possibly coming back to work. He was still employeed with them all the way until the day they sent his termination papers.

So the no compete wouldn't go into effect until after his contract was terminated.



Also as a side note another problem he had with Vince, and the WWE, was that he asked about being allowed to wear shirts that had advertisers on them because Punk was approached by numerous people wanting him to endorse their stuff. It would have made him a nice chunk of side money. Vince told him no that they couldn't allow their wrestlers to do that because it would piss off the investors and people for WWE.

Then less than a year later turned around and allowed Brock Lesnar to do exactly what Punk had asked for. Lesnar comes out with Jimmy John's all over his gear and gets paid by them to do so. So Punk understandably was pissed because he had an opportunity to do the exact same thing and was told there was no way they could let any one do that and then he turns around and not even a year later they're allowing Brock to do it.

Vince is not the best guy in the world but I wouldn't call him a scumbag either. He does a lot of underhanded, and shady stuff, with his employees but I've read plenty of stories, and watched plenty of interviews where wrestlers have told about things that Vince has done for his people that no one even knows about.


A couple of examples are that he loaned Steve Austin a bunch of money to buy this house he wanted, before Steve really got hot, and then after he got hurt and wasn't making money for Vince at the time Steve contacted him about the money he still owed and how he planned to try and get it paid back even though he couldn't make money at the time while he was still out hurt.

Vince told him not to worry about it because his debt was paid and he didn't owe him another dime. It's a small amount to Vince, in the six figures that was still owed, but its a large amount to most of us.

He also had Triple H set up, and paid, for all of XPacs rehab he had to have a few years ago when he'd gotten so really bad.