Coach Joe had it right...

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,008
Reaction score
37,150
... if Michael Irvin and Co. were adhering to their criteria that the 4th And Long winner be able to contribute on special teams, then the choice should have been Andrew Hawkins.

(I know 4th And Long has probably been thoroughly discussed elsewhere, but I've been off since it aired so bear with me.)

I don't dislike Holley. He's a big receiver who knows how to use his size/physicalness and jumping ability and showed real good hands. I do wonder about his ability to separate because most of the plays they showed him making were either in tight coverage or after the DB decided to get physical with him and lost.

However, my biggest knock against picking him is that this wasn't supposed to be about how well he can play receiver against scrub defensive backs. It really doesn't matter what he can do as a third- or fourth-team receiver against third- or fourth-team defensive backs, either. What matters is can he play a special teams role as the fourth or fifth receiver on this roster ... and I saw no evidence that he can.

Every receiver but our one bona fide starter (Roy Williams) can contribute on special teams if they are on the game-day roster. Patrick Crayton, despite the fact that we are always looking to replace him, is a capable punt returner who lacks flash but is sure-handed and gets the most out of what he's got. Miles Austin, if not starting, has shown himself to be a capable return man and can cover kicks decently (although I'd prefer we didn't use him for that even if he's the third receiver). Sam Hurd is good at kick coverage and might keep a role on that unit. I wouldn't be surprised if Isaiah Stanback ends up lining up deep with Felix Jones on kickoff returns.

Maybe Holley can cover kicks and maybe he can be one of the blockers on kickoff returns, but I didn't see anything that tells me he'd be good at either.

Andrew Hawkins showed ability to compete as a gunner, to cover kickoffs, to return kickoffs and to return punts. That's the type of player we need competing for the fourth- or fifth-receiver role. It doesn't really matter if he or Holley is the best receiver. We need the best contributor, and Joe Avezzano told us what we already had seen, Hawkins was that player.

I don't look for Holley to compete for a roster spot for that reason. Let's just say, for argument's sake, he's as good a receiver as Hurd or Stanback, to be the fourth receiver. He wouldn't beat out those guys because the fourth receiver has to be able to contribute on special teams. ... Now, if he's better than Dallas' third receiver, then the right choice was made, but I don't think expecting that is realistic.
 

NextGenBoys

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,252
Reaction score
1,964
Well put.

As posters have said, we have enough long striders, we need a quick agile threat to take it to the house at any time he touches the ball in the return game.

Hawkins would have been it. You cant teach speed.
 

Four

New Member
Messages
2,601
Reaction score
1
no one from that show was gonna make the game day roster.

I didn't even watch it, but the way people are crying over the results makes me wish it never happened.
 

Hoofbite

Well-Known Member
Messages
40,865
Reaction score
11,566
Four;2851988 said:
no one from that show was gonna make the game day roster.

I didn't even watch it, but the way people are crying over the results makes me wish it never happened.

BINGO!
 

craig71

Aut Viam Inveniam Aut Faciam
Messages
2,745
Reaction score
136
It seems as though the show achieved the desired effect,to make people believe that reality tv is just that, reality.However without seeing every bit of tape from the series I would be hard pressed to say that Hawkins was the best player of the group(not to say he wasn't),quickness against a bunch of scrubs is not nfl quick.The same thing can be said against Holley,being phsysical against scrubs is not gonna cut it against NFL caliber corners.Although I hope Holley makes the squad,reality says otherwise.But hey,ya' never know Hawkins may be given another shot next year if 4th and Long returns.


Craig
 

jazzcat22

Staff member
Messages
81,288
Reaction score
102,217
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Four;2851988 said:
no one from that show was gonna make the game day roster.

I didn't even watch it, but the way people are crying over the results makes me wish it never happened.

right on!

This is the 80th player. A person that no other team, including the Cowboys even looked at. No matter if it was Hawkins, Holley or Captain Crunch.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,008
Reaction score
37,150
Four;2851988 said:
no one from that show was gonna make the game day roster.

I didn't even watch it, but the way people are crying over the results makes me wish it never happened.

The people crying because they think any discussion of it is "people crying over the results" makes me wish they would stay out of threads about it.
 

Idgit

Fattening up
Staff member
Messages
58,971
Reaction score
60,826
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
gimmesix;2852078 said:
The people crying because they think any discussion of it is "people crying over the results" makes me wish they would stay out of threads about it.

You said yourself you hadn't read the other threads on the topic. Those are probably what Four's referring to.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,008
Reaction score
37,150
Idgit;2852081 said:
You said yourself you hadn't read the other threads on the topic. Those are probably what Four's referring to.

If he is, then I apologize.

It just seems to me that a lot of the time when someone brings up a "sore" (or controversial, which most seem to be) topic here, someone feels the need to bemoan people talking about it.

I fail to understand why if people don't like certain topics, they can't just move on to topics they like (if there are any). Let those who are interested have their discussion without unneccessary criticism of the subject.
 

jswalker1981

Fact > Your Opinion
Messages
2,616
Reaction score
0
jazzcat22;2852029 said:
right on!

This is the 80th player. A person that no other team, including the Cowboys even looked at. No matter if it was Hawkins, Holley or Captain Crunch.


Whoa, whoa, wait a minute...........




We could have had Captain Crunch??


I wished Hawkins won, but I'm not going to curse out Holley because he won. And honestly, he's probably done harder work this offseason then most of the receivers we have right now. Competition is always good, where ever it comes from.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,008
Reaction score
37,150
jswalker1981;2852113 said:
I wished Hawkins won, but I'm not going to curse out Holley because he won. And honestly, he's probably done harder work this offseason then most of the receivers we have right now. Competition is always good, where ever it comes from.

Yeah, I'm not mad that Holley won. He and Hawkins were the only players who stood out in that group. I just think his chances of making the team are lower because of special teams. When you're starting out behind the eight-ball, you need all the advantages you can get. Hawkins had the advantage there, and I think it's possible he could have been our best punt return option other than Newman (who I don't want to see do it).

I am intrigued in seeing what DeAngelo Smith can do as a punt returner, though.
 

The Ominous

Dead Man Stalkin
Messages
2,890
Reaction score
4,028
We won't even remember the names "Jesse Holley" and "Andrew Hawkins" 6 months from now, maybe sooner.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,008
Reaction score
37,150
Ominous Oracle;2852126 said:
We won't even remember the names "Jesse Holley" and "Andrew Hawkins" 6 months from now, maybe sooner.

We also won't remember the names Julian Hawkins, Derreck Robinson, Jonas Seawright, Michael Turkovich ... so what's your point?
 

BAT

Mr. Fixit
Messages
19,443
Reaction score
15,607
craig71;2852018 said:
It seems as though the show achieved the desired effect,to make people believe that reality tv is just that, reality.However without seeing every bit of tape from the series I would be hard pressed to say that Hawkins was the best player of the group(not to say he wasn't),quickness against a bunch of scrubs is not nfl quick.The same thing can be said against Holley,being phsysical against scrubs is not gonna cut it against NFL caliber corners.Although I hope Holley makes the squad,reality says otherwise.But hey,ya' never know Hawkins may be given another shot next year if 4th and Long returns.


Craig

Actually 4.35 is 4.35 no matter where you run it. Hawkins was NFL quick. But the point the OP was making is that Coach Joe (a renown ST coach) explicitly stated that Hawkins was as good or better than who the Cowboys currently have on the team, think he specifically called out Hurd and one other (Crayton?). Hawkin was clearly the BEST special team player on the show, from start to finish.


If anything, I think McGann might have had the most upside as a WR of all the WRs, Holley included. McGann had the size, hands, seperation ability and versatility (could line up in slot), moreso than Holley IMO. Holley was more physical and always had the hops and strength, not to mention his hands improved at the most improved at the most important time, the last game/cut. But he still looks like a BB player trying to play football to me.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,008
Reaction score
37,150
BAT;2852153 said:
If anything, I think McGann might have had the most upside as a WR of all the WRs, Holley included. McGann had the size, hands, seperation ability and versatility (could line up in slot), moreso than Holley IMO.

From what we saw of him in that one "game," I'm inclined to agree with you. I was hoping he would be put back on the show so we could see more of him, but that's where the "show" part of 4th And Long intervened. They had to keep the show moving along.

The big boy seemed to have good speed and was turning those DBs around. Now, before someone jumps all over that, yes, it was against "scrub" DBs, but you can only work with what you've got. I thought McGann was impressive against that level of competition, and really got a raw deal when he was cut.

Of course, we don't know for sure because we're not shown everything, but it seemed he was plenty physical for a receiver who got cut for not being physical enough for his size.
 

gimmesix

Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life
Messages
40,008
Reaction score
37,150
BAT;2852153 said:
Actually 4.35 is 4.35 no matter where you run it. Hawkins was NFL quick. But the point the OP was making is that Coach Joe (a renown ST coach) explicitly stated that Hawkins was as good or better than who the Cowboys currently have on the team, think he specifically called out Hurd and one other (Crayton?). Hawkin was clearly the BEST special team player on the show, from start to finish.

I'm not really going that far with Hawkins. I don't know if I agree with Coach Joe that Hawkins is a better special teams option than Crayton or Hurd. But he certainly was the best special teams player on the show, and I think that's the only shot the winner will have of making the team.

Hawkins would at least bring the speed element to that part of the game and it would be interesting to see if he could do anything with it, esp. on punt returns.
 

jobberone

Kane Ala
Messages
54,219
Reaction score
19,659
It's easier to find a Hawkins than a Holley; supposedly. I wish they'd just take them both to camp as they were the class of the group. I do agree McGann should have gotten another look. All he did was do as well as Holley. In the end I'd still take Holley for his upside over McGann. But I'd have put Hawkins out there in camp to see what he could do in the slot, SPs, STs, and PRs. He may have done well in KRs if someone taught him to take it upfield. He'll make a fine gunner as well. And we have no one with the quicks. I have always been against small guys. But the rule changes now make them difficult to cover and catch. Nothing like a roadrunner out there these days.
 
Top