Commanders.com: Taylor Joins Team For OTAs

AmishGangsta

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burmafrd;1503594 said:
The Skins do not have playoff caliber talent on the D line. And also not at CB. All the schemes and smoke and mirrors in the world will not be able to overcome those simple facts.

I'll give you that one, the Skins don't have playoff caliber talent (above average) on the line, but they have been on top 10 defenses and been to the playoffs with these exact same -- non playoff caliber --cast-offs, when the critiques were saying these exact same things.
 

theebs

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what a stupid thread.

I cant put into words how sick and tired I am of hearing about the Commanders.
 

AmishGangsta

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theebs;1503666 said:
what a stupid thread.

I cant put into words how sick and tired I am of hearing about the Commanders.

I think the title should have been a dead giveaway as to what the thread was about, thanks for adding to the discussion, though. :rolleyes:
 

silverbear

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AmishGangsta;1503416 said:
I never said one word about the Cowboys - not sure where you got that from.

You didn't, I was anticipating a possible rebuttal, and headed it off at the pass...

Is beyond me. Obviously, the defense as a whole was unproductive - including the line. I just don't think the defensive line was the biggest issue as advertised. At a quick glance at the stats one will often look and automatically assume that the defensive line was the biggest problem on the team.

Run defense starts with the defensive line, particularly in the 4-3... the Skins were 27h in the league in run defense, 24th in yards per carry allowed...

This is an indictment of the defensive line play...

Pass rush pressure starts with the defensive line, particularly in the 4-3... the Skins were dead last in sacks...

This is an indictment of the defensive line play...

The Skins were next to last in the NFL in total defense...

This is an indictment of the defensive line play...

We've gone to war with the same underachieving defensive line (- Andre Carter) for the last three years, and we've had productive defenses 2/3 of those years. How do you explain that? Luck?

I explain it in a number of ways:

1) Incredible good luck on the injury front the year they finished ranked 3rd...

2) It was NOT the "same underachieving defensive line", even besides Carter... you also worked rookies Kedrick Golston and Anthony Montgomery into the mix... that's three new players, out of eight regulars used... apparently, they were NOT upgrades over the players they replaced...

3) The Skins' defense has been consistently DECLINING over the last three years... 3rd in 04, 10th in 05, 31st in 06... this suggests that the league has figured out how Gregg Williams does things, and has adjusted to counter it...

I've always thought Dockery was the worst lineman on the team, even when he was here, and if you don't believe me I can PM you a link to where I've said such things in the past.

Naw, I believe you... I just think you underrate the guy severely... I also think that he's better than Casey Rabach ever DREAMED of being...

There's a reason the Bills were willing to throw 7 million a year at him, and if they hadn't, some other team almost certainly would have... he's held in generally higher regard around the league than YOU hold him...

It would seem the Skins held him in higher regard too, given that he started every game for them the last three years, 61 games in 4 years overall...

As far as the depth, they've brought in a bunch of guys who can play numerous positions - they're projects just like Dockery was.

Dockery started 61 of the 64 NFL games he played-- some "project"...

Jason Fabini is a "project"?? Man, he'll be 33 years old when the season starts, he'd best get past that "project" phase... problem is, he's on his last legs...

The ONLY other offensive linemen the Skins have brought in this offseason are Cowboys castoff Ross Tucker, and William Whitticker... neither is a good bet to make the 53 man roster...

Come on bro, Dockery leaves the Skins and then you label him as an irreplaceable player, that's so predictable :)

First, "irreplaceable" is a bit of a mischaracterization of my position... more important, I was calling for the Boys to draft him out of college, being just about as big a Longhorns fan as I am a Cowboys fan... I'm hoping they're keeping a close eye on his little brother Cedric down in Austin...

The Skins weren’t light on injuries last year, by any means. All of these players on defense missed significant time and battled injuries throughout the season: S Pierson Prioleau, CB Shawn Springs, Both Starting DTs Cornelius Griffin and Joe Salave'a
-- including and incident where both were out at the same time -- CB Carlos Rogers, LB Marcus Washington - that's not enough to decimate an entire season, but that's hardly light.[/quote]

It's not being racked with injuries, either... it's about average for a team in any given season, I think...

Racked with injuries would what the Cowboys suffered at linebacker a coupla years back, when they lost starter and captain Dat Nguyen and starter Al Singleton at midseason, then had players they brought in to replace them hurt their first week on the team...

I think the fact that we didn't make any wholesale changes in the coaching staff

Actually, I think the coaching staff is a big part of the problem-- too many guys who want to be head coaches, or to put it in terms a Skins fan ought to be able to relate to, too many chiefs, not enough Indians...

What happens when Gibbs retires again, and Bugel, Saunders and Williams ALL expect to be his replacement?? Answer-- you see a lot of high priced talent looking for work elsewhere...

and the fact that we didn't overhaul the roster like in years past,

Counting on "continuity", when you're a 5-11 team, seems rather silly to me... you don't get a record that bad unless you have PERSONNEL problems...

I disagree with you on the "get back to .500 part", if Gibbs is short of anything but another playoff run, it will be a failure - to tell you the truth, I would probably be disappointed w/ that. :)

Then I'm afraid you're quite likely to find yourself disappointed at season's end...
 

AmishGangsta

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silverbear;1504032 said:
You didn't, I was anticipating a possible rebuttal, and headed it off at the pass...

Ok, I’ll give you that edge - I’ll present to you my case, without using the Cowboys in my example.

Incredible good luck on the injury front the year they finished ranked 3rd...
It was NOT the "same underachieving defensive line", even besides Carter... you also worked rookies Kedrick Golston and Anthony Montgomery into the mix... that's three new players, out of eight regulars used... apparently, they were NOT upgrades over the players they replaced...
You were doing pretty good up until this point - boy did you pick the wrong year to start relying on guesstimates. The year they were ranked 3 on defense was in 2004, they had a substantial amount injuries particularly on defense:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2004/regular?sort_col_1=4

All of these players were starters and suffered major injuries (I don't want to bore you with stats, so I'll make this quick and just list the prominent figures).

Phillip Daniels missed 11 games.
Brandon Noble missed 12 games.
Mike Barrow missed the entire season
LaVar Arrington missed 12 games.

They were forced to start Ron Warner - who no longer plays in the nfl - and Demetric Evans (who?) was also in the rotation; Lemar Marshall replaced LaVar, and Antonio Pierce came out of nowhere and filled in for Barrow - another example of the skins finding projects and making them into superstars, when the experts say the position is too weak for the team to compete.

There's a reason the Bills were willing to throw 7 million a year at him
Yeah, several teams were loaded with salary cap space and had a lot of money to throw around -- due to the new CBA -- and there weren't that many quality guards out there in this year's free agency class. There's no way he gets that kind of money in any other year.

Jason Fabini is a "project"?? Man, he'll be 33 years old when the season starts, he'd best get past that "project" phase... problem is, he's on his last legs...
I don't see Jason Fabini making the team - most likely he'll be camp fodder if he plays like he did with his last team. ;)

The Skins lose ONE PLAYER (besides Arch Delux) on one of the strongest units on the team (Oline, second to only the RBs) and you think they are going to struggle because they lost this “ mischaracterized irreplaceable player - just seems predictable to me, I realize you’re a longhorn fan, I’m not trying to insult you.

Dockery struggled before Buges came into the picture - to put this in better words, Buges got the best out of an average lineman; if you think the reason why he has started so many games for the Commanders is a reason why he’s a valuable asset, just look around the league, at the numerous amount of players who have started -- for many years-- who should be replaced.

Buges has a long history of taking scrubs and making them into stars - Again, I don't want to bore you with pages upon pages of data, but if you want to go there, we can go there. :)

What happens when Gibbs retires again, and Bugel, Saunders and Williams ALL expect to be his replacement?? Answer-- you see a lot of high priced talent looking for work elsewhere...
I'm very high on Buges, as you can tell - I think he is probably one of the top 5 Oline coaches in the business, but I don't see him becoming a head coach anytime soon, haha

Counting on "continuity", when you're a 5-11 team, seems rather silly to me... you don't get a record that bad unless you have PERSONNEL problems...
Not when a lack of continuity is one of the reasons you were 5-11 to begin with.

Wouldn’t you say that’s the reason the Skins haven’t been successful over the years - lack of continuity? They’ve always had talent in the past.

Let me ask you this, what happened the last time the Skins had an offseason where they didn’t overhaul the roster or make any drastic changes to the coaching staff? (hint 2005).

They made too many changes last year, it’s that simple.

You say they did absolutely nothing, but I see a lot of moves that they made last year as sacrifices that will pay off in the near future.





First and foremost, they bring in Al Saunders and the players have to learn a new offensive system. “If it aint broke, why fix it” stated starting tailback Clinton Portis - but I disagree with the assertion that the offense wasn’t broke, after all, the skins did put up the fewest amount of yards in a single playoff game than any other team in history.

On top of a brand new system, you bring in a large quantity of new players: Randel-El, Brandon Lloyd, Andre Carter, Adam Archuletta, Fauria etc…

On defense you bring in a new secondary/cornerbacks coach (Jerry Gray) and after starting cornerback Shawn Springs gets injured, you are forced to start guys like Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph - who are #4 cornerbacks, when they drink their milk - then you wonder why the secondary suddenly looks like it’s never seen an NFL practice facility before.

In the middle of the season, you make a QB change - you put in a guy who had never started in the NFL before. He had been practicing with the third unit - then you wonder why the receivers aren’t getting the stats that their huge contracts demand.

You can't expect to make so many drastic changes in one year and expect to get instant results - we've seen it over and over with the Commanders.

Let me ask you this: When was the last time we had some stability in DC?
No, I'm not talking about both the Clinton and Bush administrations leading double terms in office from 1993-2007, I'm talking about the Commanders 2005 season.

Coming off of a losing season, they supposedly had more holes on the roster than the titanic. They remained complacent, without making any splash in free agency excluding maybe the Coles for Moss trade, which was inevitable.

Do you remember all of the talk? They spent the off-season supposedly twiddling their thumbs. The sky was falling, they were doomed; the expectations were at a minimum. However, one thing that people seemed to miss out on that year, was the fact that - for the most part - the Commanders remained stable in their coaching staff and had consistency on their roster. Which later proved to be a successful season, when the Commanders were approximately one game from competing for a championship.

That kind of sounds familiar doesn’t it? This year they make a couple solid moves, but nothing that‘s going to earn them the once coveted “off-season title“. In free agency, they sign a solid MLB in London Fletcher who has more tackles than anyone in the NFL over the last 5 years and who already knows Gregg Williams defensive scheme. They bring back a blast from the past and fan favorite in Fred Smoot. They re-sign a couple of their own players - (Betts, Wade, Yoder, Jimoh, Fox), and re-structure a few contracts of some of their current starters (Portis, Moss, Jansen, Thomas, etc…)

Let me tell you this, all the Commanders needed this off-season to improve was a little stability.


Personally, I like a lot of the moves the Commanders made last year, you just can’t expect instant results with so many changes - but some of these moves were impossible to avoid - that much is evident.

So what does the future hold?

You have an Al Saunders offensive system that has been in place for a year - let’s not forget that his offense has been proven to be - when given time - one of the most effective offenses in the league, over the last few years.

This will be the first time ever in Jason Campbell’s young NFL career where he has an entire off-season to prepare to be the starting quarterback; It is also the first time he’s ever been in the same offensive system in back to back seasons - both in his collegiate and professional career.

Gregg Williams and his defense were a top 10 defense in the league, 2 out of the last 3 years - last year’s defensive collapse being the exception; with all of the solid players they have added, what makes you think they’re going to completely disappear off the face of the planet next year? If it happens again, and they make no progress next year, I will be very surprised.
 

silverbear

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AmishGangsta;1504507 said:
You were doing pretty good up until this point - boy did you pick the wrong year to start relying on guesstimates. The year they were ranked 3 on defense was in 2004, they had a substantial amount injuries particularly on defense:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2004/regular?sort_col_1=4

All of these players were starters and suffered major injuries (I don't want to bore you with stats, so I'll make this quick and just list the prominent figures).

Phillip Daniels missed 11 games.
Brandon Noble missed 12 games.

OK, you're right, it was the 2005 season where they got off light on the injury front...

Yeah, several teams were loaded with salary cap space and had a lot of money to throw around -- due to the new CBA -- and there weren't that many quality guards out there in this year's free agency class. There's no way he gets that kind of money in any other year.

The point is, he got top dollar when he hit the free agent market... he got top dollar because he was considered one of the best guards on the open market this year, and this was a pretty good crop of free agent offensive guards-- Dockery, Steinback, Dielman, Davis were at the top...

This contradicts your assertion that he was this "spare" for the Skins...

I don't see Jason Fabini making the team - most likely he'll be camp fodder if he plays like he did with his last team. ;)

He's so much better than the other backups available, that I'll be astounded if he doesn't make your roster... injury is the only way I see that happening...

The only one of your backups on the offensive line that I like even a little bit is Kili Lefotu... I'd be interested to see what he could do if he got some playing time...

The Skins lose ONE PLAYER (besides Arch Delux) on one of the strongest units on the team (Oline, second to only the RBs)

Your offensive line is as strong as its starters, your depth is nonexistent... and now, it's only as good as your four best starters, because the replacement for Dockery is stone guaranteed to be a lesser player than the one they lost...

and you think they are going to struggle because they lost this “ mischaracterized irreplaceable player - just seems predictable to me, I realize you’re a longhorn fan, I’m not trying to insult you.

Not to worry, your arguments do not come off as insulting... you're just defending your view, and your team, with all the force you can... I do the same, so I won't hold that against you...

Dockery struggled before Buges came into the picture - to put this in better words, Buges got the best out of an average lineman; if you think the reason why he has started so many games for the Commanders is a reason why he’s a valuable asset, just look around the league, at the numerous amount of players who have started -- for many years-- who should be replaced.

So, "Buges" is this great offensive line guru, yet he willingly muddled through with an inferior offensive lineman??

If Bugel really saw Dockery as this marginal talent, you can bet he would have made sure that Gibbs got somebody of NFL caliber in to replace him...

I'm very high on Buges, as you can tell - I think he is probably one of the top 5 Oline coaches in the business, but I don't see him becoming a head coach anytime soon, haha

I like Bugel, too... I'd take Hudson Houck ahead of him, but that's about it...

Not when a lack of continuity is one of the reasons you were 5-11 to begin with.

Lack of TALENT is why you guys were 5-11, particularly lack of defensive talent... like you, I'm not trying to be insulting, but statistical fact is statistical fact-- ranking 31st in total defense was not because of a lack of continuity; ranking dead last in sacks was not because of a lack of continuity; setting a league record for fewest turnovers forced was not because of a lack of continuity...

And so far this offseason, you've added a decent veteran middle linebacker, a stud rookie safety, while losing some players from that defense... those two additions will help some, but they won't turn the Skins back into a top ten defense, or even top 15 defense... all in all, I do not see a significant upgrade in the talent base on defense, and I don't see ANY upgrade on offense, indeed the loss of Dockery means a slight LOSS of talent on that side of the ball...

So you've upgraded a LITTLE on defense, downgraded a LITTLE on offense... which is not particularly impressive when you started out a 5-11 team...

They made too many changes last year, it’s that simple.

They were running the same defensive schemes they'd run since Williams got there...

You say they did absolutely nothing, but I see a lot of moves that they made last year as sacrifices that will pay off in the near future.

Then I'd say you're looking with your heart and not your head... which is understandable, I have let myself have unrealistically high expectations about the Boys in the past too... sometimes you're just too close to the situation to view it clearly...

On top of a brand new system, you bring in a large quantity of new players: Randel-El, Brandon Lloyd, Andre Carter, Adam Archuletta, Fauria etc…

It could be argued that the mistake was not in the quantity of the players, but rather in the wisdom of the choices they made... that being the case, it calls into doubt whether their acquisitions this offseason will help them all that much (not Landry, their recent track record with high draft picks is pretty sound)...

On defense you bring in a new secondary/cornerbacks coach (Jerry Gray) and after starting cornerback Shawn Springs gets injured, you are forced to start guys like Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph - who are #4 cornerbacks, when they drink their milk - then you wonder why the secondary suddenly looks like it’s never seen an NFL practice facility before.

The problem is, their replacements aren't all that good either... Smoot and Macklin are the kinds of DBs that opposing QBs look for...

In the middle of the season, you make a QB change - you put in a guy who had never started in the NFL before. He had been practicing with the third unit - then you wonder why the receivers aren’t getting the stats that their huge contracts demand.

Brandon Lloyd was never that good to begin with, you can't go laying that off on Campbell...

Do you remember all of the talk? They spent the off-season supposedly twiddling their thumbs. The sky was falling, they were doomed; the expectations were at a minimum. However, one thing that people seemed to miss out on that year, was the fact that - for the most part - the Commanders remained stable in their coaching staff and had consistency on their roster. Which later proved to be a successful season, when the Commanders were approximately one game from competing for a championship.

THAT was the season I was talking about, where they got real lucky on the injury front... their regression the following year demonstrates that there was a certain "fluke" element to that record, much as was the case with the 2003 Cowboys...

Let me tell you this, all the Commanders needed this off-season to improve was a little stability.

I think you're fooling yourself if you truly believe that... and I KNOW that most of the preseason prognosticators have the Skins ranked as an also-ran this year...

So what does the future hold?

You have an Al Saunders offensive system that has been in place for a year - let’s not forget that his offense has been proven to be - when given time - one of the most effective offenses in the league, over the last few years.

This will be the first time ever in Jason Campbell’s young NFL career where he has an entire off-season to prepare to be the starting quarterback; It is also the first time he’s ever been in the same offensive system in back to back seasons - both in his collegiate and professional career.

Jason Campbell put up a less than stellar 76.5 quarterback rating last year... in spite of being given a simplified, conservative game plan, that emphasized the running game, which was VERY effective... in spite of being the beneficiary of some pretty good pass blocking... he averaged under 185 net yards per game passing, which is not particularly good...

Given that, it's pretty unrealistic of you to expect some quantum leap forward for him this year... to the contrary, if the Skins take the wraps off him, if they start taking chances with him-- as they must, if they hope to be playoff contenders-- then it's more likely that he'll make the kinds of mistakes he wasn't allowed to make last year...

Gregg Williams and his defense were a top 10 defense in the league, 2 out of the last 3 years - last year’s defensive collapse being the exception

Again, their defensive rankings have STEADILY DECLINED over those 3 years... 3rd in 2004, 10th in 2005, 31st in 2006... this is what they call a trend, my man...

with all of the solid players they have added, what makes you think they’re going to completely disappear off the face of the planet next year?

Didn't say they were gonna disappear off the face of the planet, the strongest opinion I've stated on the subject-- which I stand behind-- is that I don't expect they'll get back to .500...

I only see two "solid players" added, anyway-- Fletcher-Baker and Landry... I don't see Smoot and Macklin as anywhere NEAR "solid"... I'm sorry that I don't see adding two solid players to a 5-11 team is likely to lead to significant improvement, but I don't...
 

AmishGangsta

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silverbear;1505694 said:
OK, you're right, it was the 2005 season where they got off light on the injury front...

The point is, he got top dollar when he hit the free agent market... he got top dollar because he was considered one of the best guards on the open market this year

because the replacement for Dockery is stone guaranteed to be a lesser player than the one they lost...

you can bet he would have made sure that Gibbs got somebody of NFL caliber in to replace him.

Guaranteed to be a downgrade? No one that's NFL caliber? :rolleyes:

One thing they didn't like about Dockery, is he wasn't a pulling guard, he's more of a straight-ahead power guy. So when they ran their counters, often times Dock would fall down or run into Portis - Portis said as much, in his little offseason rant, when he throws Dockery under the bus; he also had a bad habit with false starts and at one point was among the league leaders.

The team wanted to keep Dock, obviously, but the discussion about his contract went on way too long. He obviously wanted more money than they were willing to give him or could afford to give him - they already have a lot invested into their line.

We're essentially doing the same thing as another team in the NFC (Hint they where stars on their helmet) in taking a starting tackle - Wade - who was a starter on a bad team and we're moving him at guard.

And so far this offseason, you've added a decent veteran middle linebacker,
London has been one of the most durable and productive middle linebackers in the NFL; he has more tackles than anyone over the last five years - hardly decent. Plus he already knows the system.

Decent?!?

While losing some players from that defense...
We didn't lose anybody on defense besides Archuletta, and a couple of backup corners, nothing that's going to set us back. :laugh2:

The problem is, their replacements aren't all that good either... Smoot and Macklin are the kinds of DBs that opposing QBs look for...
When Smoot played with our team, he was one of our most productive players; he was also a vocal leader - something we lacked last year. He was misused in Minnesota, and he also had a lot of turmoil to deal with: His brother died, the Boat scenario and he was in a car accident where he broke his jaw.

I don't see Smoot and Macklin as anywhere NEAR "solid"
They're definitely upgrades over Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph. I don't know much about Macklin -- I just know he's a Commanders fan, that's why we got him so cheap. However, Smoot can definitely be a solid corner back, he's proved as much over the years.
 

Chocolate Lab

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ArmchairRedskin;1499578 said:
Take this you haters. Area 51 (21+30) will be in full effect next season. Receivers will enter but never reappear. You have been warned.

What a dork.
 

silverbear

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AmishGangsta;1506227 said:
Guaranteed to be a downgrade? No one that's NFL caliber? :rolleyes:

NFL starting caliber, anyway...

One thing they didn't like about Dockery, is he wasn't a pulling guard, he's more of a straight-ahead power guy.

This is why I like arguing with you, you make good points, and challenge me with those good points... you're quite right, Dock wasn't good on the Counter Trey...

At the same time, do you reckon that 6-8 Todd Wade, who couldn't handle speed rushers at tackle when he was starting down in Miami, will be more agile, more effective running their bread and butter play??


The team wanted to keep Dock, obviously, but the discussion about his contract went on way too long. He obviously wanted more money than they were willing to give him or could afford to give him - they already have a lot invested into their line.

Willing to give him, perhaps... but if they were unable to afford that price tag, how come they tried REAL hard to steal Leonard Davis away from the Cowboys?? You have to know he was looking for the same kind of money, if not more...

We're essentially doing the same thing as another team in the NFC (Hint they where stars on their helmet) in taking a starting tackle - Wade - who was a starter on a bad team and we're moving him at guard.

BAD comparison, AG-- first off, Davis is 2-3 inches shorter, 40-50 pounds heavier, and faster than Wade is... all of which make him a better fit at guard... beyond that, he's actually played guard before in the NFL, and played it well enough to be a Pro Bowl alternate at the position... Wade hasn't...

London has been one of the most durable and productive middle linebackers in the NFL; he has more tackles than anyone over the last five years - hardly decent. Plus he already knows the system.

Decent?!?

If you've played 9 years in the league, and never played in a Pro Bowl, "decent" is as good a grade as I'm gonna give you... as for his durability, he's now 32 years old, and as you noted, has been in on a LOT of tackles in his NFL career... eventually, that takes a toll on a player... so does getting older...

We didn't lose anybody on defense besides Archuletta, and a couple of backup corners, nothing that's going to set us back. :laugh2:

Yeah, that's the same thing you guys said about Walt Harris when he left the Skins... the same Walt Harris who played in the Pro Bowl last year... watch Archuleta have a STRONG comeback season playing for the Bears this year (they'll use him more like he was used by the Rams, he's a good fit for their defensive scheme), which will of course suggest that the defensive coaches did not do a good job of properly utilizing the talent they had last year...

When Smoot played with our team, he was one of our most productive players;

If you think you're getting the same player, I have a feeling you're about to be seriously disappointed...

I don't know much about Macklin -- I just know he's a Commanders fan, that's why we got him so cheap.

Let's just say that he was just a part-time starter for the league's 30th ranked pass defense last year...

However, Smoot can definitely be a solid corner back, he's proved as much over the years.

Just because he was once solid, it doesn't logically follow that he's still solid, now that he's got some miles on him...

BTW, dismissing his failures in Minnesota by saying they "misused" him is dangerously close to homeristic... you're better than that...

You have no way of knowing that his benching was not entirely performance related...
 

AmishGangsta

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silverbear;1506835 said:
This is why I like arguing with you, you make good points, and challenge me with those good points... you're quite right, Dock wasn't good on the Counter Trey...

Thank you, you do a pretty good job yourself
:beer2:

Well, I actually believe in what I'm saying, I don't argue for the sake of debate - I don't defend everything the Commanders do.

On to Davis,

Davis will receive $24 million over the first three years of the contract, and $18.75 million of Davis' contract is guaranteed - Oh man, I had no idea Davis's contract was similar to or possibly larger than Dockerys - that's some serious coin bro! There's no way the Skins could afford to give these guys contracts this large, with the current cap space they have. We are sorta cap-strapped for the next two years.

Let me give you a little inside info on how the Commanders reacted to Dockerys contract, and then you ask yourself if they'd really be contemplating signing Davis to a similar or larger contract.

From the Skins beat reporter Jason La Canfora talking about the Dockery situation:

The Skins And Dock Were On Different Planets
JLC Washington Post.

The chasm between the Commanders and Derrick always existed, but I didn't realize just how great the difference was between their offers and Buffalo's until tonight. Howard and I spoke to some team sources and what they told us was pretty remarkable.

I was stunned by the Derrick Dockery contract. The Commanders were stunned by the Derrick Dockery contract. And the man himself was stunned by it all. Just got off the phone with him.

The Bills deal was exponentially greater than anything the Commanders were dangling. Even had Dock got the kind of deal I thought he might as of Thursday afternoon - $12 mil guaranteed, $5 million ish per season - it wouldn't have been close.

Dock visited Buffalo Friday morning and the Bills blew him away with a seven-year, $49 million with $18.5 million guaranteed and worth $18 over the first three years of the contract alone.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2007/03/derrick_dockery_is_a_happy_hap.html
Willing to give him, perhaps... but if they were unable to afford that price tag, how come they tried REAL hard to steal Leonard Davis away from the Cowboys?? You have to know he was looking for the same kind of money, if not more...
On to Leonard Davis,

I don't think the Commanders ever made an offer to Davis. You wouldn't happen to have a link for that?

The reaction I got from Gibbs, is they liked the guy, they talked parameters, they were willing to give the guy one thing, and when they began talking they felt he was way out their price range, just like Dockery - just because you bring somebody in for an interview, doesn't mean you're going to offer him a contract. It's pure speculation that the Skins were trying to steal Davis away from the Cowboys.

Compare that to what they offered Wade: Commanders re-signed T Todd Wade to a two-year, $6.2 million contract. He'll receive $3.5 million in guaranteed money...

NFL starting caliber, anyway...
At the same time, do you reckon that 6-8 Todd Wade, who couldn't handle speed rushers at tackle when he was starting down in Miami, will be more agile, more effective running their bread and butter play??
Wade is not NFL starting caliber?

Using the same example you gave me earlier for Dockery, In four seasons with Miami Wade started in 61 games. (at tackle) Of course, he's still got to make the transition to guard, you're right; he's older now, but if he was struggling so often, why did he start so many games?

Several players said privately that facing Wade in practice last season was often more difficult than going against starting tackle Jon Jansen.

To be honest, I have no Idea how agile he is, I just know Wade's also a lot cheaper than these other two; he's versatile.

Davis is 2-3 inches shorter, 40-50 pounds heavier, and faster than Wade is... all of which make him a better fit at guard... beyond that, he's actually played guard before in the NFL, and played it well enough to be a Pro Bowl alternate at the position...
He obviously has more talent than Wade. Talent has never been an issue with Davis, it's been his practice habits and dedication that everyone‘s worried about.

If you've played 9 years in the league, and never played in a Pro Bowl, "decent" is as good a grade as I'm gonna give you... as for his durability, he's now 32 years old, and as you noted, has been in on a LOT of tackles in his NFL career... eventually, that takes a toll on a player... so does getting older...
I'm going to give you just one example, using a Commanders player, so you can see how ridiculous this statement you just made was.

Hall of Famer John Riggins, who set the record for NFL touchdowns in a season (24-which was recently broken by Tomlinson) and considered one of the best running backs in the history of the game, played 9 years with the Commanders and never made the Pro-Bowl, not once. Now, would you denounce everything the man has achieved just because he never made the Pro Bowl as a Skin?

Riggins did make the pro-bowl as a Jet - but I wouldn't say he accomplished more as a Jet.

On to Fletcher (who I wouldn't consider a hall of famer, by any means)

He has played in every regular season game over the last 8 seasons (128 games), collecting 674.0 tackles, 271 assists, 25.5 sacks, 7 interceptions (for 71 yards), 1 fumble, 10 fumbles recovered and has returned kicks at an average of 15.7 yards per attempt (188 total kick return yards from 12 returns). Like I said before, more tackles THAN ANYONE over the last 5 years. He’s also started on a Super Bowl team.

You seem to value pro-bowl appearances more than you do actual production on the field?

Pro-bowl appearances aren't always a vindication of a players production on the field. Just look at Sean Taylor making the pro-bowl last year for the skins -- as an alternate -- and he had one of the worst seasons of his career. Take a look at Michael Vick, who makes the pro-bowl regularly, but is often out performed by lesser known players.

Come on bro, we all know how ridiculous the pro-bowl voting system can be :)

It's a popularity contest, it's about the attractive players-the stars.
I'll take solid production and leadership over pro bowl appearances, any day of the week.

Yeah, that's the same thing you guys said about Walt Harris when he left the Skins... the same Walt Harris who played in the Pro Bowl last year... watch Archuleta have a STRONG comeback season playing for the Bears this year (they'll use him more like he was used by the Rams, he's a good fit for their defensive scheme), which will of course suggest that the defensive coaches did not do a good job of properly utilizing the talent they had last year...
I must admit, I was surprised at the production Walt Harris w/ the 49ers.

Because he did horrible when he was with us, but that doesn't mean that Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph are going to do the same thing. Walt Harris as bad as he played with us - or as it was presumed - is a proven NFL player. Wright and Rumph hadn't really done anything beforehand, either.

BTW, dismissing his failures in Minnesota by saying they "misused" him is dangerously close to homoristic... you're better than that... You have no way of knowing that his benching was not entirely performance related…
Well, you’re essentially doing the exact same thing here when speaking of Archuleta not being properly utilized by the coaching staff in DC - how much of that was performance related?

Smoot is an undersized cornerback that excels in man coverage. Minnesota tried to use him in their cover 2 and cover 3 zone packages - he wasn’t utilized properly; on top of that, he had to deal with a lot of turmoil in his second year, that an human being would have trouble coping with.

He’s 28 - one year younger than Champ Bailey - he’s in the prime of his career; cornerbacks last a long time in this league, hardly washed up.
 

silverbear

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AmishGangsta;1507150 said:
Thank you, you do a pretty good job yourself
:beer2:

Well, I actually believe in what I'm saying, I don't argue for the sake of debate - I don't defend everything the Commanders do.

I do hope you understand that I'm not stating these criticisms to bait you as a Skins fan... I'm not above doing that to the Skins trolls, but I find you to be engaging and reasonable, and wouldn't want to do that to you...

Davis will receive $24 million over the first three years of the contract, and $18.75 million of Davis' contract is guaranteed - Oh man, I had no idea Davis's contract was similar to or possibly larger than Dockerys - that's some serious coin bro! There's no way the Skins could afford to give these guys contracts this large, with the current cap space they have. We are sorta cap-strapped for the next two years.

And yet, the Skins reportedly offered Leonard a bit larger offer, but he chose the Boys because he wanted to come home to Texas...

I don't think the Commanders ever made an offer to Davis. You wouldn't happen to have a link for that?

Sorry, it was so long ago that I can't find it using Yahoo's search engine...

Wade is not NFL starting caliber?

Not in my opinion, no...

Using the same example you gave me earlier for Dockery, In four seasons with Miami Wade started in 61 games. (at tackle) Of course, he's still got to make the transition to guard, you're right; he's older now, but if he was struggling so often, why did he start so many games?

God only knows... he was a whipping boy for the fans down there practically the whole time he was there...

He obviously has more talent than Wade. Talent has never been an issue with Davis, it's been his practice habits and dedication that everyone‘s worried about.

This is true... but so far this offseason, he has gained rave reviews for his work ethic...

Hall of Famer John Riggins, who set the record for NFL touchdowns in a season (24-which was recently broken by Tomlinson)

Actually, Emmitt broke Riggo's record, then Tomlinson broke Emmitt's...

and considered one of the best running backs in the history of the game, played 9 years with the Commanders and never made the Pro-Bowl, not once. Now, would you denounce everything the man has achieved just because he never made the Pro Bowl as a Skin?

I'll admit that I was surprised to learn he didn't make it in 83, when he had nearly 1350 yards and those 24 TDs... but if you look at his season by season stats, he really didn't have any other single season where he put up big numbers... the next best total was nearly 1240 yards in 84...

I wouldn't call Riggins one of the best running backs in the history of the game, though, he ranks 13th on the NFL career rushing list, and he had the 10th highest number of carries... now, I'm NOT saying he doesn't deserve his spot in the Hall of Fame, but he got there by being very good for a very long time, not by being really dominant over a given period of time...

Riggins did make the pro-bowl as a Jet - but I wouldn't say he accomplished more as a Jet.

But he DID at least make a Pro Bowl...

On to Fletcher (who I wouldn't consider a hall of famer, by any means)

He has played in every regular season game over the last 8 seasons (128 games), collecting 674.0 tackles, 271 assists, 25.5 sacks, 7 interceptions (for 71 yards), 1 fumble, 10 fumbles recovered and has returned kicks at an average of 15.7 yards per attempt (188 total kick return yards from 12 returns). Like I said before, more tackles THAN ANYONE over the last 5 years. He’s also started on a Super Bowl team.

Lots of players who weren't even really good have started on a Super Bowl team...

You seem to value pro-bowl appearances more than you do actual production on the field?

While I understand that Pro Bowl appearances are often a popularity contest, and Fletcher-Baker hasn't really played anywhere that he got a lot of publicity, I do believe that if you play 9 years in the league without making one of them, you're probably not "great"...

And while he's had a lot of tackles, he hasn't made a lot of big plays; in 144 games played, he has 11 ints, and 7 fumbles recovered... that's two turnovers forced per season...

I must admit, I was surprised at the production Walt Harris w/ the 49ers.

Combine that with the Skins' inability to get anywhere NEAR the production out of Archuleta that he'd shown before he went to the Skins, and doesn't that suggest to you that the coaches don't do a particularly good job of adapting their defensive schemes to the talent on hand??

Because he did horrible when he was with us, but that doesn't mean that Kenny Wright and Mike Rumph are going to do the same thing.

Naw, Rumph and Wright are definitely stiffs... but again, doesn't that call the judgement of your personnel evaluators into question, that they signed those two stiffs in the first place...

Well, you’re essentially doing the exact same thing here when speaking of Archuleta not being properly utilized by the coaching staff in DC - how much of that was performance related?

He wasn't that bad with the Rams, which is why the Skins went after him in the first place... so, do you reckon he just suddenly got bad, or could it be that the Skins MISUSED him??


He’s 28 - one year younger than Champ Bailey - he’s in the prime of his career; cornerbacks last a long time in this league, hardly washed up.

Actually, it's been my experience over the years that cornerback, being a position heavily dependent on pure speed, is one position where players don't often enjoy lengthy careers... please, don't throw Darrell Green up at me now, he's the exception that proves the rule, an athletic freak if ever there was one and one of my favorite non-Cowboys players ever...
 
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I completely forgot I made this post. I believe it was a post two dollar tuesday affair.


I'm about to go back and read all the posts, as I haven't yet done so. Hopefully I won't have to regulate.
 
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Chocolate Lab;1506491 said:
What a dork.




What? A man can't go drink some beer and then come home and post some half drunken smack? Pffft.


I challenge any of you to go out and get half hammered on a week night and come back and post some smack without coming of as either

A: a total jerkwad

or

B: a dork



:D
 

silverbear

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ArmchairRedskin;1509566 said:
What? A man can't go drink some beer and then come home and post some half drunken smack? Pffft.


I challenge any of you to go out and get half hammered on a week night and come back and post some smack without coming of as either

A: a total jerkwad

or

B: a dork



:D


SERIOUSLY funny, AR... I often use the LOL shorthand, but this time I really did laugh out loud...

I can tell you, though, that it is entirely possible to come off as a dork while completely sober...
 
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