Cowboy history: Biggest waste of talent (self inflicted)

[KJJ]

How are Martin's 11 years "far longer" than Bruce Smith's 19 years and Deacon Jones 13 years?
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I never said Harvey Martin’s career was far longer than Bruce Smith’s or Deacon Jones. He had a much longer and better career than the players that were mentioned whose careers flamed out quick.

 

[KJJ]

As for declining real fast, he had 8.5 sacks in 9 games in 1982 and in his last year of 1983 he had 2 sacks in 16 games. How would that not be a rapid decline?

He was in his 10th season in 1982 and he still put up 8.5 sacks in 9 games. 1983 was his last season he was washed up by then. I don’t know how you see his career as a fast decline. He produced solid numbers for 10 years. Plus by 1983 the Cowboys were in decline.

 

[OmerV]

I never said Harvey Martin’s career was far longer than Bruce Smith’s or Deacon Jones. He had a much longer and better career than the players that were mentioned whose careers flamed out quick.

I thought your comments were focused on Martin's career relative to elite pass rusher's in history, so I assumed you meant my mention of some of those pass rushers. Just a miscommunication on that.

In any case, I wasn't trying to say all the Cowboys I mentioned had exactly the same circumstances. Martin certainly did have a longer, more successful career than the others. My point was only that I believe his talent level was such that he could have reached the level of an elite career had he not had other issues.

 

[OmerV]

He was in his 10th season in 1982 and he still put up 8.5 sacks in 9 games. 1983 was his last season he was washed up by then. I don’t know how you see his career as a fast decline. He produced solid numbers for 10 years. Plus by 1983 the Cowboys were in decline.

lol. I don't see how you think going from 8.5 sacks in 9 games in one year to "washed up" only a year later isn't a rapid decline. That's like falling off a cliff

You act as if I suggested he was declining for years and years. I did not say that, and that wouldn't be a rapid decline anyway. And I never suggested he didn't have solid numbers for quite a few years. What I said was the numbers could have been even better, and when the drugs and personal issues got too great his career just died.

Landry and the Cowboys saw the effect of the drugs and sent him to re-hab, but he didn't stop, and ultimately he decided it was better to retire than face having to take a drug test. That pretty well sums up the depth of the problem.

 

[KJJ]

lol. I don't see how you think going from 8.5 sacks in 9 games in one year to "washed up" only a year later isn't a rapid decline. That's like falling off a cliff

You act as if I suggested he was declining for years and years. I did not say that, and that wouldn't be a rapid decline anyway. And I never suggested he didn't have solid numbers for quite a few years. What I said was the numbers could have been even better, and when the drugs and personal issues got too great his career just died.

Landry and the Cowboys saw the effect of the drugs and sent him to re-hab, but he didn't stop, and ultimately he decided it was better to retire than face having to take a drug test. That pretty well sums up the depth of the problem.

He emptied his tank in 82, plus drugs caught up with him. The entire defense was starting to regress. The defense had a lot of aging players. In 1983 Landry wanted him to go to rehab. Rapid decline is when a player gets off to a great start to their career and are done in three to five years. You see a decline in their production each season.

 

[eromeopolk]

"Waste" may not be the right word, because you are right that they all got some great results. But all fell short of the careers they could have had, some well short. Martin is the only one of that group that at least had something close to the career he could have.

Martin should be in the Ring of Honor and Hall of Fame. There is no Doomsday II without "The Beautiful" "Too Mean" Harvey "Martinize Em" Martin. I still don't understand why his sack records are not official when you have every game he played on film/tape from 1973-1983.

 

[OmerV]

He emptied his tank in 82, plus drugs caught up with him. The entire defense was starting to regress. The defense had a lot of aging players. In 1983 Landry wanted him to go to rehab. Rapid decline is when a player gets off to a great start to their career and are done in three to five years. You see a decline in their production each season.

He was on pace for sacks in 1982, and only had 2 in 1983. That's going from 120 mph in a Ferrari to 30 mph in a Dodge Dart in a very short time, and suggests something more than can be brushed aside with a euphemism like "he emptied his tank".

Note your own comment - " ... plus the drugs caught up with him." That's fits with what I've said. Drugs were a problem in his career. And it didn't just start in 1982-83.

You're definition of rapid decline makes no sense. The definition you gave was of a short career, and a gradual decline over a number of years. Rapid decline is going from high to low very quickly, which you actually indicated he did with the "he emptied his tank in 82" comment.

 

[OmerV]

Martin should be in the Ring of Honor and Hall of Fame. There is no Doomsday II without "The Beautiful" "Too Mean" Harvey ?"Martinize Em" Martin. I still don't understand why his sack records are not official when you have every game he played on film/tape from 1973-1983.

I definitely think he should be in the Ring of Honor. He should at least be a serious candidate for the HOF, but right or wrong I think all the drug and domestic violence issues, plus a few arrests, have killed his chances.

As for having the tapes to count sacks, I've had the same thought. Why can't they confirm and count sacks from before 1982?

 

[CowboyRoy]

Not sure Irvin had a drug problem, but he had girl problem where drugs became an issue.

Drugs and girls go together at times. He seem to have a handle on it.

 

[Ranched]

Mike Ditka. Before he was the loud mouthed ESPN NFL analyst & the sweater vest wearing coach of Da Bears, Ditka played four years w/Dallas.

When Dallas beat the Dolphins in Super Bowl VI, Ditka caught one of Staubach's two TD passes. Not bad for a TE. At the time, his 427 receptions were the most by a TE in NFL history.

Retirement? Why Mike?!

 

[KJJ]

He was on pace for sacks in 1982, and only had 2 in 1983. That's going from 120 mph in a Ferrari to 30 mph in a Dodge Dart in a very short time, and suggests something more than brushed aside with a euphemism like "he emptied his tank". How does one have a full tank one year and just "empty the tank" anyway?

Note your own comment - " ... plus the drugs caught up with him." That's fits with what I've said. Drugs were a problem in his career. And it didn't just start in 1982-83.

You're definition of rapid decline makes no sense. The definition you gave was of a short career, and a gradual decline over a number of years. Rapid decline is going from high to low very quickly, which you actually indicated he did with the "he emptied his tank in 82" comment.

If he was doing drugs early in his career it certainly didn’t affect him. If you want to lump him in there with Duane Thomas, Hollywood Henderson and Randy Gregory go ahead. Those players had short careers with the Cowboys and ended up being disappointments. Harvey Martin should be in the ROH and possibly the Hall of Fame. He was a great player who had a great career. His play didn’t drop off until he was 33 years old. I’m not going any further with this it’s a waste of time.

 

[OmerV]

If he was doing drugs early in his career it certainly didn’t affect him. If you wanna lump him in there with Duane Thomas, Hollywood Henderson and Randy Gregory go ahead. Those players had short careers with the Cowboys and ended up being disappointments. Harvey Martin should be in the ROH and possibly the Hall of Fame. He was a great player who had a great career. I’m not going any further with this it’s a waste of time.

I don't know exactly at what point he started, but I doubt he was doing drugs early in his career. My guess is it was sometime after he had started performing at an elite level in his 4th season, and started getting a lot of attention from people for that success. I imagine that's likely what got him exposure to the drugs.

You need to quit thinking and suggesting I indicated Harvey Martin is identical to the others I mentioned. That's nonsensical. The only link I made was that they were all people that had issues that harmed their careers. I didn't remotely suggest all had careers affected in exactly the same way.

As for the Ring of Honor and HOF, I never said he shouldn't be in either, but the reality is those kinds of honors are probably being withheld because of the drug problems both during and after his playing career, and the cocaine possession and domestic abuse arrest. With the ROH Jerry probably won't put him in unless he gets in the HOF, and with the HOF the only hope is if the veteran's committee softens up on him over time.

 

[OmerV]

Mike Ditka. Before he was the loud mouthed ESPN NFL analyst & the sweater vest wearing coach of Da Bears, Ditka played four years w/Dallas.

When Dallas beat the Dolphins in Super Bowl VI, Ditka caught one of Staubach's two TD passes. Not bad for a TE. At the time, his 427 receptions were the most by a TE in NFL history.

Retirement? Why Mike?!

What self inflicted harm did Ditka do to his career? As you said, he retired with the most receptions for a TE in NFL history, so I don't see any harm at all, much less any that was self inflicted.

As for why he retired, Ditka's HOF credentials were built on the first half of his career, his last couple of years he was only a part time player alternating with either Billy Truax or Jean Fugett, and the Cowboys had just drafted Billy Joe Dupree in the 1st round.

 

[Typhus]

Thinking about the sad case of Randy Gregory made me remember some of the other Cowboys players over time that were blessed with great talent but had personall issues that seriously damaged their careers and legacies. Here are some that come to mind:

Randy Gregory - we will never know how good he could have been
David Irvin - another pot casualty. Like Gregory we will never know how good he could have been, but he had great talent.
Duane Thomas - Huge talent with an even bigger chip on his shoulder. Didn't get along with anybody - teammates, coaches, media ...
Lance Rentzel - Star player with a beautiful celebrity wife and a predilection for flashing children.
Hollywood Henderson - a LB and one of the fastest players in the NFL. A true athletic freak. Serious cocaine habit derailed his career
Harvey Martin - Had a very good career anyway, but without the multitude of drugs might be discussed alongside guys like Bruce Smith, Deacon Jones etc ...

Hollywood won the Texas state lottery twice.

 

[eromeopolk]

I definitely think he should be in the Ring of Honor. He should at least be a serious candidate for the HOF, but right or wrong I think all the drug and domestic violence issues, plus a few arrests, have killed his chances.

As for having the tapes to count sacks, I've had the same thought. Why can't they confirm and count sacks from before 1982?

All I have to say is Lawrence Taylor. Harvey Martin never did drugs with an underage prostitute in a hotel room. So even this is subjective for HOF candidates. There are racist, rapist, women abusers, drug users and dealers in the NFL Hall of Fame.

There has always been a heavy bias against Dallas Cowboys players going in the Hall of Fame. The Ring of Honor should not even be a discussion and is overdue decades for Harvey Martin.

 

[OmerV]

All I have to say is Lawrence Taylor. Harvey Martin never did drugs with an underage prostitute in a hotel room. So even this is subjective for HOF candidates. There are racist, rapist, women abusers, drug users and dealers in the NFL Hall of Fame.

There has always been a heavy bias against Dallas Cowboys players going in the Hall of Fame. The Ring of Honor should not even be a discussion and is overdue decades for Harvey Martin.

You are absolutely right about the double standard with Taylor and a few others.

 

[BourbonBalz]

Easy one. Thomas Henderson. Could’ve been a HOFer but preferred cocaine.

 

[VaqueroTD]

For those saying Quincy Carter had no talent?

Uhhh, it's a good thing there is video to prove the opposite. Quincy Carter most definitely had talent: a cannon of an arm and the ability to scramble and use his feet.



Quincy's problem was he was a big time pot smoker.

Probably underrated. GULP. I can’t believe I said that. I remember all the idiots who thought Hutchinson was a better quarterback.

Just a horribly run organization at the time. Carter never should have been starting his rookie year. Fans remember that. Horrible coaching staff, never got him prepared his first year and I’m sure whatever was going on off the field didn’t help. Desperate team, horrible quarterback recruiting, they were looking for anything.

He deserves to be here though because he did have talent, and instead he spent it with personal problems that also affected his game day preparation.

 

[VaqueroTD]

I'd like to know how Romo is "the biggest self-inflicted waste of talent".

Seems to me he actually over-achieved.

No doubt. Considering probably over 50% of first round picks at quarterback fall apart in the NFL, not bad for an undrafted rookie. If we get to biggest choke jobs in the postseason, we can start talking about Romo, but give the guy credit, he did a lot more than he was ever supposed to.

 

[kskboys]

Probably underrated. GULP. I can’t believe I said that. I remember all the idiots who thought Hutchinson was a better quarterback.

Just a horribly run organization at the time. Carter never should have been starting his rookie year. Fans remember that. Horrible coaching staff, never got him prepared his first year and I’m sure whatever was going on off the field didn’t help. Desperate team, horrible quarterback recruiting, they were looking for anything.

He deserves to be here though because he did have talent, and instead he spent it with personal problems that also affected his game day preparation.

Was it the ducks, the low comp %, or the coke that impressed you?