Cowboys: STAY AWAY from Courtney Upshaw

[jnday]

Agreed.

These folks that just think swapping him for some of the other guys mentioned as going in the first round is going to cure any pass rush woes the Cowboys have is just plain wrong.

Can you repost this in big , bold letters ?:laugh1: Why waste the 14 th pick on a player that will not be an upgrade ? That would not do anything but hurt this team . I want a great pass rusher as much as anyone on this board . This just happens to be a draft that doesn't have one . There is some pass rushers available , but not the elite prospects that are worthy of the 14th pick . Maybe next year there will be . Who knows ?

 

[burmafrd]

facts are that we need more from Spencer then we are getting. so time to move on.

unfortunately I do not see anyone in the draft that will replace him and be a real upgrade as a pass rusher.

 

[burmafrd]

There is no pass rusher worth the #14 pick I agree.

Unless Claiborne falls for some reason there is not a CB worth our pick either.

Frankly if Decastro is gone at #14 we might as well trade down if we can.

 

[Woods]

facts are that we need more from Spencer then we are getting. so time to move on.

unfortunately I do not see anyone in the draft that will replace him and be a real upgrade as a pass rusher.

Me neither. That's why I'd try to re-sign him to a "reasonable" contract. Unless there is someone available in FA who is a clear upgrade.

I think it may be easier to upgrade the DL instead via FA.

 

[InmanRoshi]

The exucses for Spencer are a mile long. Supposedly he can't rush the passer because of scheme, despite the fact that Greg Ellis had no problems doing it before Spencer, and the Houston players had no problem doing it under Wade this year.

To me it just goes to the idea of how much you're willing to accept mediocrity and how much you're willing to pay for it. Spencer is a mediocre player. He's a proven 4-6 sack a year guy, playing a position in schemes where players produced far more before and after him.

Last year we locked up proven mediocrity long term to guaranteed money in Marcus Spears. It seems a lot of people are more than willing to lock up proven mediocrity to long term, guaranteed money again. So we're locking up mediocrity at DE and now we're locking up mediocrity again at OLB in back to back offseasons. How could we possibly expect anything more than mediocrity again from our pass rush?

 

[robert70x7]

Can we agree that Quinton Coples is the best pass rusher in the draft?

If he falls to us, would you take him or DeCastro?

 

[jnday]

Agreed.

Coleman and Spears COMBINED for 2 sacks and 16 pressures.

Ugh.

You want improvement in the pass rush?

There ya go.

It looks like these two are the biggest problem . If Dallas wants to remain in the 3-4 defense , they have to get away from these type of linemen . I don't like linemen that only take up blocks and fill gaps . I know that in the 3-4 that it is on the LBs to make the plays and DL job to take up blocks . Other teams are going away from those traditional views and Dallas needs to do the same .

 

[robert70x7]

The exucses for Spencer are a mile long. Supposedly he can't rush the passer because of scheme, despite the fact that Greg Ellis had no problems doing it before Spencer, and the Houston players had no problem doing it under Wade this year.

To me it just goes to the idea of how much you're willing to accept mediocrity and how much you're willing to pay for it. Spencer is a mediocre player. He's a proven 4-6 sack a year guy, playing a position in schemes where players produced far more before and after him.

Last year we locked up proven mediocrity long term to guaranteed money in Marcus Spears. It seems a lot of people are more than willing to lock up proven mediocrity to long term, guaranteed money again. So we're locking up mediocrity at DE and now we're locking up mediocrity again at OLB in back to back offseasons. How could we possibly expect anything more than mediocrity again?

If you're going to look at it strictly from the perspective of all that we need from an OLB is for him to get pressure on the quarterback (which he ranked 10th in the league amongst 3-4 OLB), then people will just continue to disagree with you on what is considered mediocre.

I agree that Spears is mediocre, but Spencer has performed on a level that Spears hasn't even touched once in his career. The argument is, there's not anyone better in the first round or free agency. How can it be considered "settling" if there is no better alternative this year?

 

[TheSport78]

So there are other factors? Other than our cornerbacks outside of Jenkins, Keith Brooking and Bradie James were the worst players on defense, and hopefully will result in them leaving. I would like to see Victor Butler get more snaps and them draft another body that they can rotate in on the defensive line so we can have a front of Ratliff, Hatcher and a pure pass rusher.

Anthony Spencer was penalized 7 times. DeMarcus Ware 11 times.

The Cowboys should only re-sign Spencer if it is a situation like marcus Spears where they let him test the market to see if he gets a bigger contract. If he does, great for him and we move on. If he doesn't get anything, then more than likely we can get him for a good deal. That doesn't mean we can't go draft someone like that kid from Boise State, and Victor Butler will get more playing time next year.

I was giving WARE the benefit of the doubt because he needs other players to step up. There were numerous times where Ware was getting chipped by the RB, and THEN got double teamed, because the opponent didn't care about Spencer. They were fine with leaving Spencer on an island because he wasn't a threat.

Yes, I stated the DL is below average, but getting a pass rush out of your DL in a 3-4 is a BONUS. It's rare to have DE's in your base 3-4 who generate consistent pressure. Most pressure needs to come from the OLB's. Excuse after excuse can be made for Spencer, but the fact is, the dude needs to go.

Ware had more penalties, but how many were personal foul penalties? I remember Spencer getting the majority of those.

Spencer SHOULD NOT be re-signed. He hasn't WARRANTED a contract extension. This is EXACTLY what got us in trouble a couple years back with players like Ken Hamlin, Roy Williams and Terence Newman; players who simply did not deserve the contract they were rewarded.

 

[jnday]

facts are that we need more from Spencer then we are getting. so time to move on.

unfortunately I do not see anyone in the draft that will replace him and be a real upgrade as a pass rusher.

What do you think of Butler starting and have him rotate with a second round pick , like Curry ?

 

[InmanRoshi]

If you're going to look at it strictly from the perspective of all that we need from an OLB is for him to get pressure on the quarterback (which he ranked 10th in the league amongst 3-4 OLB), then people will just continue to disagree with you on what is considered mediocre.

In today's NFL ... yes, that's primarily what I want from the OLB. If the goal is to win Superbowls, you're going to have to go through Eli Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers to do it. Not Ahmad Bradshaw, BenJarvis Green Ellis, Pierre Thomas and James Starks. Further, if we're going to continue to gather stiffs at DE like Marcus Spears and Kenyon Coleman, or the ever elusive and desired big fat tub of goo nosetackle, it's all the more imperative that we get pass rush from the OLBs. Right now I'm hearing that we have the perfect storm of pass rush suckatude. We don't value pass rush skillsets in our OLBs, we don't rush both our OLBs to bring pressure off the perimeter, and we primarily want 2 gappers at DE. That might have been a solid strategy in 1982, but it seems like a recipe for disaster in today's NFL with 5 QBs flirting with 5,000 yard passing seasons.

I agree that Spears is mediocre, but Spencer has performed on a level that Spears hasn't even touched once in his career. The argument is, there's not anyone better in the first round or free agency. How can it be considered "settling" if there is no better alternative this year?

Because youre not even attempting to even find better alternatives. You just made up your mind there isn't one and accepted it. By locking up Spencer to long term money you've just resigned yourself that 4-6 sacks are all you're getting out of the SOLB position, and that's that.

 

[robert70x7]

In today's NFL ... yes, that's primarily what I want from the OLB. If the goal is to win Superbowls, you're going to have to go through Eli Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers to do it. Not Ahmad Bradshaw, BenJarvis Green Ellis, Pierre Thomas and James Starks. Further, if we're going to continue to gather stiffs at DE like Marcus Spears and Kenyon Coleman, or the ever elusive and desired big fat tub of goo nosetackle, it's all the more imperative that we get pass rush from the OLBs.

Right now I'm hearing that we have the perfect storm of pass rush suckatude. We don't value pass rush in our OLBs, we don't rush both our OLBs to bring pressure off the perimeter, and we primarily want 2 gappers at DE. That might have been a solid strategy in 1982, but it seems like a recipe for disaster in today's NFL with 5 QBs flirting with 5,000 yard passing seasons.

I agree with you that the problem is us gathering stiffs on the defensive line is a problem, and I also think it is the majority of the problem. New England, New York, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Baltimore, Houston all get a consistent pass rush from their defensive line. Justin Smith, J.J. Watt, Vince Wilfork, Andre Carter, Mark Anderson, Haloti Ngata are all unconventional pass rushers and make it work. Our problem is on the defensive line, we don't have anyone on our defensive front besides Ratliff and MAYBE Hatcher who could crack the defensive line rotation on any of these teams.

Because youre not even attempting to even find better alternatives. You just made up your mind there isn't one and accepted it. By locking up Spencer to long term money you've just resigned yourself that 4-6 sacks are all you're getting out of the SOLB position, and that's that.

We can find better alternatives for defensive line this year through the draft and free agency. There isn't much out there at SOLB. We need another guy that can come in and rotate on the d-line that could give Ratliff more looks at end rather than tackle. We need to play what the market gives us and if we let Spencer go, we would be relying on Victor Butler and a rookie to replace him. I don't think they would.

 

[tm1119]

Can we agree that Quinton Coples is the best pass rusher in the draft?

If he falls to us, would you take him or DeCastro?

In the 4-3 its very possible, but as a 3-4 end he would most likely be very limited with his pass rush.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

In the 4-3 its very possible, but as a 3-4 end he would most likely be very limited with his pass rush.

This is what one draft site says about Coples...

"Pass rush: Coples is exclusively a quickness and power pass rusher. Because of his size, he doesn't have the speed and athleticism to get low and turn the corner fast. With his size, Coples is able to cover a lot of area quickly. If an offensive tackle can keep Coples from gaining the edge, he has some trouble because he can't close quickly."

To me he sounds like a Chris Canty clone.

Canty has ended up as a 4-3 DT. Could be that's Coples best position also.

 

[tm1119]

This is what one draft site says about Coples...

"Pass rush: Coples is exclusively a quickness and power pass rusher. Because of his size, he doesn't have the speed and athleticism to get low and turn the corner fast. With his size, Coples is able to cover a lot of area quickly. If an offensive tackle can keep Coples from gaining the edge, he has some trouble because he can't close quickly."

To me he sounds like a Chris Canty clone.

Canty has ended up as a 4-3 DT. Could be that's Coples best position also.

I was also thinking Canty, maybe even Tuck for Coples. He's kind of a tweener that will probably be best used in a 4-3 because he will be able to be used all over the line and will be great at stunts. I honestly believe Coples will be wasted talent in the 3-4.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Because youre not even attempting to even find better alternatives. You just made up your mind there isn't one and accepted it. By locking up Spencer to long term money you've just resigned yourself that 4-6 sacks are all you're getting out of the SOLB position, and that's that.

Well, when your 7th in sacks, but 23rd vs the pass in the NFL, I think it shows the bigger problem area.

And then you have the whole "5 rushing TD's all season long" issue.

And that's how I'd rank the problem areas at this point...

Interior offensive line
Corner
Pass rush

 

[TheSport78]

Well, when your 7th in sacks, but 23rd vs the pass in the NFL, I think it shows the bigger problem area.

And then you have the whole "5 rushing TD's all season long" issue.

And that's how I'd rank the problem areas at this point...

Interior offensive line
Corner
Pass rush

I agree with this. I think by moving Rat to DE, and getting a true nose tackle will help the pass rush tremendously. I expect Lissemore to make a significant contribution in 2012 also. Heck, he may even be a starter at DE.

 

[robert70x7]

I agree with this. I think by moving Rat to DE, and getting a true nose tackle will help the pass rush tremendously. I expect Lissemore to make a significant contribution in 2012 also. Heck, he may even be a starter at DE.

On passing downs: Ratliff, Lissemore, Hatcher doesn't sound too bad.

1. Interior O-Line
2. CB
3. ILB
4. Safeties
5. DE/OLB

 

[burmafrd]

Well, when your 7th in sacks, but 23rd vs the pass in the NFL, I think it shows the bigger problem area.

And then you have the whole "5 rushing TD's all season long" issue.

And that's how I'd rank the problem areas at this point...

Interior offensive line
Corner
Pass rush

you do realize that the last 6 games with the exeption of the Falcons our Pass rush was Ware and nothing else. Your pet spencer got 3 sacks in his last 13 games.

 

[TheSport78]

On passing downs: Ratliff, Lissemore, Hatcher doesn't sound too bad.

1. Interior O-Line
2. CB
3. ILB
4. Safeties
5. DE/OLB

I would switch number 3 and 5 IMO.