Cowboys: STAY AWAY from Courtney Upshaw

[robert70x7]

I would switch number 3 and 5 IMO.

We aren't really sure what Carter is yet, but I'm guessing it is better than James/Brooking. While Sean Lee made plays, I think he was a little overrated in coverage this year. He makes the sideline to sideline plays and the 3-4 tends to give up a lot of swing passes, but it'd be nice to get another legitimate ILB.

 

[TheSport78]

We aren't really sure what Carter is yet, but I'm guessing it is better than James/Brooking. While Sean Lee made plays, I think he was a little overrated in coverage this year. He makes the sideline to sideline plays and the 3-4 tends to give up a lot of swing passes, but it'd be nice to get another legitimate ILB.

I'm with you. I hope we bring in a veteran to compete with Carter. Nothing should be handed to him!

 

[MichaelWinicki]

you do realize that the last 6 games with the exeption of the Falcons our Pass rush was Ware and nothing else. Your pet spencer got 3 sacks in his last 13 games.

I guess our team has a lot of issues huh?

 

[casmith07]

Spencer isn't a world-beater, but the problem is DE not Spencer.

Re-sign him. We need him and we need to upgrade the DL more than anything.

 

[Hoofbite]

If you're going to look at it strictly from the perspective of all that we need from an OLB is for him to get pressure on the quarterback (which he ranked 10th in the league amongst 3-4 OLB), then people will just continue to disagree with you on what is considered mediocre.

I agree that Spears is mediocre, but Spencer has performed on a level that Spears hasn't even touched once in his career. The argument is, there's not anyone better in the first round or free agency. How can it be considered "settling" if there is no better alternative this year?

How many teams even run a 3-4?

You keep saying 10th best OLB like he's 10th out of some huge number of players.

The article that started defending Spencer a while back had 12 teams listed.

So, 24 starting OLBs? And he's 10?

He almost never faces a double team and plays opposite of a guy who flushes the QB in his direction frequently.

And he's 10th.

And this whole idea of "pressuring the QB" as the backbone of his defense is meaningless.

Getting pressure doesn't even tell you anything about the outcome of the play. He could have rushed the QB into an incompletion or he could get pressure, flush the QB and still have essentially ZERO IMPACT on the play.

[youtube]vzlRktxf31c[/youtube]

He gets plenty of pressure on that play (and was probably credited with getting a pressure) but even with a free run he still allows the QB to escape the rush and make a play that ends the game.

Seriously, it looks like the Cardinals just completely disregarded that he was there. Nobody even looked to even get in his way. Just a free run and untouched.

The real kicker for the whole Spencer situation is that he has played at a level MUCH, MUCH higher than we have seen over the last two years. At the end of 2009 he was on a tear.

Why is he not playing that well now? The answer's pretty simple because he gave the answer out a while back in saying he took plays off in 2010.

He's a slacker who's production is pretty average.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

I was giving WARE the benefit of the doubt because he needs other players to step up. There were numerous times where Ware was getting chipped by the RB, and THEN got double teamed, because the opponent didn't care about Spencer. They were fine with leaving Spencer on an island because he wasn't a threat.

Yes, I stated the DL is below average, but getting a pass rush out of your DL in a 3-4 is a BONUS. It's rare to have DE's in your base 3-4 who generate consistent pressure. Most pressure needs to come from the OLB's. Excuse after excuse can be made for Spencer, but the fact is, the dude needs to go.

Ware had more penalties, but how many were personal foul penalties? I remember Spencer getting the majority of those.

Spencer SHOULD NOT be re-signed. He hasn't WARRANTED a contract extension. This is EXACTLY what got us in trouble a couple years back with players like Ken Hamlin, Roy Williams and Terence Newman; players who simply did not deserve the contract they were rewarded.

Getting a push or rush from your DL in a 34 is a necessity if you want to be a truly good defense. We got zero, nothing. We can't have that if we want to be a good defense. Also, when you get a push from your DL, it helps your outside rush get home more often. Spencer would be a 8-10 sack guy easy if we got any kind of an inside push at all. He does alot of things well for us and i wouldn't mind resigning him at all. I doubt we get a significant upgrade anywhere this offseason.

As for penalties, i'd rather have a couple personal foul penalties from being aggressive then a bunch of offsides penalties.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Why is he not playing that well now? The answer's pretty simple because he gave the answer out a while back in saying he took plays off in 2010.

He's a slacker who's production is pretty average.

He never said he took plays off last year, he's not a slacker, and his production isn't average.

 

[TheFinisher]

How many teams even run a 3-4?

You keep saying 10th best OLB like he's 10th out of some huge number of players.

The article that started defending Spencer a while back had 12 teams listed.

So, 24 starting OLBs? And he's 10?

He almost never faces a double team and plays opposite of a guy who flushes the QB in his direction frequently.

And he's 10th.

And this whole idea of "pressuring the QB" as the backbone of his defense is meaningless.

Getting pressure doesn't even tell you anything about the outcome of the play. He could have rushed the QB into an incompletion or he could get pressure, flush the QB and still have essentially ZERO IMPACT on the play.

[youtube]vzlRktxf31c[/youtube]

He gets plenty of pressure on that play (and was probably credited with getting a pressure) but even with a free run he still allows the QB to escape the rush and make a play that ends the game.

Seriously, it looks like the Cardinals just completely disregarded that he was there. Nobody even looked to even get in his way. Just a free run and untouched.

The real kicker for the whole Spencer situation is that he has played at a level MUCH, MUCH higher than we have seen over the last two years. At the end of 2009 he was on a tear.

Why is he not playing that well now? The answer's pretty simple because he gave the answer out a while back in saying he took plays off in 2010.

He's a slacker who's production is pretty average.

I don't think there's any way he's the 10th best 3-4 OLB:

Ware
Matthews
Woodley
Harrison
Wake
Suggs
Barwin
M. Williams
Reed
V. Miller
S. Phillips
Orakpo
Kerrigan
Aldon Smith
Ahmad Brooks

That's 15, and those are just guys who I rattled off the top of my head. I would gladly take anyone of them over Spencer.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't think there's any way he's the 10th best 3-4 OLB:

Ware
Matthews
Woodley
Harrison
Wake
Suggs
Barwin
M. Williams
Reed
V. Miller
S. Phillips
Orakpo
Kerrigan
Aldon Smith
Ahmad Brooks

That's 15, and those are just guys who I rattled off the top of my head. I would gladly take anyone of them over Spencer.

That's because all you're valuing are sacks.

Not coverage ability.

Not run defense.

There's more to an OLBer's game than simply rushing the passer.

 

[TheFinisher]

That's because all you're valuing are sacks.

Not coverage ability.

Not run defense.

There's more to an OLBer's game than simply rushing the passer.

The only guy there who's a situational pass rusher is Aldon Smith. Everyone else is at least just as good as Spencer playing the run and dropping in coverage, if not better.

There's nothing special about Spencer's game against the run or when he's in coverage. Just because he doesn't get put on his back in the run game some fans want to pat him on the back for that, I don't. When does he disrupt running plays in the backfield our chase down ball carriers on outside runs for TFLs? He doesn't, so what exactly does he do that makes you think he's anything more than mediocre as a run defender.

And dropping in coverage? lol, all we ask him to do is drop into the flats... he's not running with TEs or RBs down the field. What makes him special in pass coverage?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The only guy there who's a situational pass rusher is Aldon Smith. Everyone else is at least just as good as Spencer playing the run and dropping in coverage, if not better.

There's nothing special about Spencer's game against the run or when he's in coverage. Just because he doesn't get put on his back in the run game some fans want to pat him on the back for that, I don't. When does he disrupt running plays in the backfield our chase down ball carriers on outside runs for TFLs? He doesn't, so what exactly does he do that makes you think he's anything more than mediocre as a run defender.

And dropping in coverage? lol, all we ask him to do is drop into the flats... he's not running with TEs or RBs down the field. What makes him special in pass coverage?

I'm sure you have some information to back up your point of view.

 

[TheFinisher]

I'm sure you have some information to back up your point of view.

It's called watching him play, but if you want to overrate Spencer and call him a top 34 OLB then be my guest. We'll see how much interest he garners from the rest of the league in FA.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It's called watching him play, but if you want to overrate Spencer and call him a top 34 OLB then be my guest. We'll see how much interest he garners from the rest of the league in FA.

Watching huh.

Oh-kay.

 

[Risen Star]

That's because all you're valuing are sacks.

Not coverage ability.

Not run defense.

There's more to an OLBer's game than simply rushing the passer.

But a 3-4 OLB must be able to rush the passer. This isn't the 4-3. He's the pressure guy in our defense. If he can't consistently get to the QB, he can't be a starter at OLB in this defense.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

But a 3-4 OLB must be able to rush the passer. This isn't the 4-3. He's the pressure guy in our defense. If he can't consistently get to the QB, he can't be a starter at OLB in this defense.

Would I like Spencer to get more sacks? You bet.

Worst in the NFL? Not hardly.

And it's not all about sacks.

 

[Risen Star]

Would I like Spencer to get more sacks? You bet.

Worst in the NFL? Not hardly.

And it's not all about sacks.

It has to concern you that he failed to have a big performance in his contract year.

I don't get why people want to extend mediocrity. The guy is not a difference maker on this defense. There's no reason to use significant cap space on him in an extension.

 

[Doomsday101]

Would I like Spencer to get more sacks? You bet.

Worst in the NFL? Not hardly.

And it's not all about sacks.

I agree up to a point, what it comes down to is what will the asking price be. If Spencer agent is looking for big money then I would pass. Greg Ellis switched from the 4-3 to the 3-4 playing that OLB and was more productive in my view than Spencer has ever been in Dallas both in terms of run stopping and pass rushing.

In Ellis last 2 years in Dallas playing opposite of Ware he put up 20.5 sacks on the other hand Spencer in 5 years has put up 21.5 sacks. If what Ellis was doing was not good enough I can't see how what Spencer is doing is good enough.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

It has to concern you that he failed to have a big performance in his contract year.

I don't get why people want to extend mediocrity. The guy is not a difference maker on this defense. There's no reason to use significant cap space on him in an extension.

Do I want to spend huge dollars on the guy? No.

But I'm not seeing any of these possible first round 3-4 OLBer types coming in and getting 10 sacks a season. I just don't see it. You've got a group of "Spencer-clones".

 

[Doomsday101]

Do I want to spend huge dollars on the guy? No.

But I'm not seeing any of these possible first round 3-4 OLBer types coming in and getting 10 sacks a season. I just don't see it. You've got a group of "Spencer-clones".

Maybe so but they may also have more upside to them. Spencer has been here a while I don't expect to see his production change for the better.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Maybe so but they may also have more upside to them. Spencer has been here a while I don't expect to see his production change for the better.

Does upside matter?

Of course.

But I look at it from the standpoint of who is going to make more of a difference to this team in '12... DeCastro starting in Kosier's spot or Upshaw/Ingram starting in Spencer's spot.

If there's an OLB in the 2nd round who can come in and be a Spencer-clone (or perhaps more-so in the future) then I'm A-OK with that. But in the first round for me it's all about DeCastro and what difference he can make on the interior of the offensive line.