News: Cowboys' success in 2016 will again rely heavily on DC Rod Marinelli

[Denim Chicken]

I was t impressed with his unit's work last year. And his 'Rushmen' have finished no higher than 26th in sacks since he's been here.

And the 'bare cupboard' excuse doesn't add up for last season, when they got the top pass rusher available in free agency and the best prospect in the draft and it still didn't make a difference.

If the results continue, eventually you have to wonder if it's the coaching.

So do you blame the players or the coach? I think most would agree that Hardy was not the same last season and the 'best prospect in the draft' was injured.

The fact is, Marinelli has not had much in top talent since he's been here, and he has been both let down by players and faced an inordinate amount of injuries. However, he’s done well with what he has been provided. His aptly dubbed 'no name defense' in '14 had 31 takeaways and was 15th in PPG (22). Naturally, last year was disappointing from a take-away perspective, but his D was 5th against the pass and again 16th in PPG.

 

[Stash]

So do you blame the players or the coach? I think most would agree that Hardy was not the same last season and the 'best prospect in the draft' was injured.

And the excuses start to flow once again...

Hardy sure looked like Hardy when he first returned from his suspension. He got worse the more he played in this defense. And Gregory wasn't too "injured" to not play, was he? But, somehow, when the results aren't there, it's due to "injury".

The names of the players continue to change, the mediocre results continue to remain the same.

The fact is, Marinelli has not had much in top talent since he's been here, and he has been both let down by players and faced an inordinate amount of injuries. However, he’s done well with what he has been provided. His aptly dubbed 'no name defense' in '14 had 31 takeaways and was 15th in PPG (22). Naturally, last year was disappointing from a take-away perspective, but his D was 5th against the pass and again 16th in PPG.

Hooray for average.

But again, isn't that the one constant since Garrett's been here? As middle-of-the-road average as can be.

 

[Denim Chicken]

And the excuses start to flow once again...

Hardy sure looked like Hardy when he first returned from his suspension. He got worse the more he played in this defense. And Gregory wasn't too "injured" to not play, was he? But, somehow, when the results aren't there, it's due to "injury".

The names of the players continue to change, the mediocre results continue to remain the same.



Hooray for average.

But again, isn't that the one constant since Garrett's been here? As middle-of-the-road average as can be.

OK, cool. So what's your plan? Play the coaching carousel every few years? I'm sure that will yield better results. Maybe we should switch back to a 3-4.


EDIT:

Hardy sure looked like Hardy when he first returned from his suspension. He got worse the more he played in this defense.

That is a ridiculous reach.

 

[Stash]

OK, cool. So what's your plan? Play the coaching carousel every few years? I'm sure that will yield better results. Maybe we should switch back to a 3-4.

For the record, I was against switching back to the 4-3 in the first place. I was worried that the team would go right back to struggling to find a pass rush. Lo and behold, guess what? They're struggling to find a pass rush!

And how many years is sufficient in your mind to determine whether or not a coach is the right man for the job or not? They've had more than enough time for a thorough evaluation. If any of them are fired, it certainly won't be because of insufficient time on the job or opportunity.

 

[Denim Chicken]

For the record, I was against switching back to the 4-3 in the first place. I was worried that the team would go right back to struggling to find a pass rush. Lo and behold, guess what? They're struggling to find a pass rush!

And how many years is sufficient in your mind to determine whether or not a coach is the right man for the job or not? They've had more than enough time for a thorough evaluation. If any of them are fired, it certainly won't be because of insufficient time on the job or opportunity.

I don't have a time limit, I evaluate what I see. I look at what has transpired and understand injuries and suspensions and lack of play-makers as obstacles to overcome. You want to write those off as excuses, fine, but I like Rod and his scheme (which is pretty much the same thing they're doing up in Seattle with the #1 Defense).

 

[Stash]

I don't have a time limit, I evaluate what I see. I look at what has transpired and understand injuries and suspensions and lack of play-makers as obstacles to overcome.

It's always something. Great to know that they have fans who will think up excuses year after year. A built-in justification for mediocrity.

You want to write those off as excuses, fine, but I like Rod and his scheme (which is pretty much the same thing they're doing up in Seattle with the #1 Defense).

He can say it's the same scheme all day long, that doesn't make it so, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

 

[Denim Chicken]

It's always something. Great to know that they have fans who will think up excuses year after year. A built-in justification for mediocrity.



He can say it's the same scheme all day long, that doesn't make it so, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

OK, I'll just pretend like injuries and suspensions don't happen, that way i'm not making excuses.

Romo & Dez should be cut because he did't get it done last year. No excuse.
Heck, they should have given Luck 140 Mil, he sucked last year! No excuse.
Fire all the DCs in the leauge who have under top 10 defenses. No excuse (and 21 people out of jobs)

Funny how you make an excuse for Hardy, though. Its not him, it's our Defense making him suck.

 

[Doomsday101]

Amazing what 2015 did to the mindset of the fans. 2014 season saw Marinelli defense which had no true star players and yet was 2nd in the NFL in creating turnovers. I don't think it is his scheme or style it will work it comes down to players doing their job. People act as if players do not play a part in this as if Rod is standing their with a controller as you would have playing Madden. They can teach players, they can show players what to do but come game day it is the players who are out on the field and it is their job to execute it. Rod has not been in the league this long because he has no clue he has been around because of the success he has had. No doubt his players failure are his failure as it is with any coach but I have no doubt it is not a lack of ability on his part it is the lack of execution on the part of the player.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Only thing that really gives me any optimism is that the defense is largely the same as 2014's over achieving bunch, but with a few additions. Gregory wasn't on the team so no loss... sean lee was out, and he's back. We've added Lord Byron, Tapper, Collins, and Thornton, and D Law being suspended is essentially his injuries in the first half of the 14 season. So while looking at the defense and wishing there was more in the cupboard, or remembering how poor they were last year and looking at the subtractions it's easy to be pessimistic. I'd say if the offense can get back to jumping out in front and controlling the TOP, our D in theory should be able to produce similarly to 14. Also one thing to remember about that year is that it was all doom and gloom about the defense prior to the season after releasing Ware etc. So hopefully we can have another surprise season of folks stepping up.

Really wish I could like this more than once.

 

[Stash]

OK, I'll just pretend like injuries and suspensions don't happen, that way i'm not making excuses.

Just don't pretend that they don't happen to everybody.

Romo & Dez should be cut because he did't get it done last year. No excuse.
Heck, they should have given Luck 140 Mil, he sucked last year! No excuse.
Fire all the DCs in the leauge who have under top 10 defenses. No excuse (and 21 people out of jobs)

Reductio ad absurdum. The go-to trick for those losing an argument.

Funny how you make an excuse for Hardy, though. Its not him, it's our Defense making him suck.

No, suddenly a proven, Pro Bowl, 15-sack guy 'just sucks'.

The fact is that Marinelli got the best pass rusher in free agency and the best pass rusher in the draft and did little with either. But yeah, let's continue to blame the players. The ones here before, those acquired last year, and those to come.

From your talk, it sounds like Marinelli has a ready-made excuse for underachieving this year too.

 

[Sydla]

So do you blame the players or the coach? I think most would agree that Hardy was not the same last season and the 'best prospect in the draft' was injured.

The fact is, Marinelli has not had much in top talent since he's been here, and he has been both let down by players and faced an inordinate amount of injuries. However, he’s done well with what he has been provided. His aptly dubbed 'no name defense' in '14 had 31 takeaways and was 15th in PPG (22). Naturally, last year was disappointing from a take-away perspective, but his D was 5th against the pass and again 16th in PPG.

A few things to note. One, the 5th against the pass is a total misnomer. That's in total yards and as we saw, teams could pretty much run on us at will. If you look at efficiency, we were 20th in the league in passer rating at 94.2. Basically, when teams wanted to throw against us, they had some pretty good success through the air.

The pass D was not very good last year (and yes, that's tied to an inept pass rush).

 

[Denim Chicken]

Just don't pretend that they don't happen to everybody

Yes, and those teams who have had horrible injuries end up at the bottom of the league in D. Please tell me how many team lost the starters we did in '14? How many have had three starters suspended to start the season? How did they fair? Remember over half the teams in the leauge were worse than us in defense.

I will put blame of the FO for personnel gafts and lack of depth, but I will not simplistically go after a DC who has done well with the tools at his disposal.

Reductio ad absurdum. The go-to trick for those losing an argument.

It is necessary to point out your ridiculous takes which are absurd to begin with.

No, suddenly a proven, Pro Bowl, 15-sack guy 'just sucks'.

Again in your fantasy land. Let's pretend Hardy was coming off a 15 sack season, fresh and ready to go, not out of football for a year and facing scandal.

The fact is that Marinelli got the best pass rusher in free agency and the best pass rusher in the draft and did little with either. But yeah, let's continue to blame the players. The ones here before, those acquired last year, and those to come.

The fact is that Hardy was not up to par and Gregory got injured, but you want to continually gloss over facts to support your agenda (which is really simplistic).

It is very easy to just look at the final results and say "they suck, fire them", it really takes no critical thinking, just like your responses in most of your posts, which are just the typical platitudes of a poster who lets their jadedness and negativity interfere their reason.

 

[Denim Chicken]

A few things to note. One, the 5th against the pass is a total misnomer. That's in total yards and as we saw, teams could pretty much run on us at will. If you look at efficiency, we were 20th in the league in passer rating at 94.2. Basically, when teams wanted to throw against us, they had some pretty good success through the air.

The pass D was not very good last year (and yes, that's tied to an inept pass rush).

That's why I included PPG, which, to me, is the most important stat followed by turnover ratio (which was our main problem in '15 IMO).

 

[Proof]

I really hate excuses. Hate to hear them, loathe to make them, but Marinelli deserves some slack.

Hardy has 40 career sacks over 5 seasons and jus the two double digit sack performances while playing with a dominant D. The year he was suspended he had 1 in the four games he played, and then missed two years of football. I still had high expectations, and think he's a force, but the fact is, he looked gassed at the end of games, became undone mid season, and ultimately was on a team going nowhere fast and his effort seemed to reflect that.

Gregory missed 8 games with his injury and it was one that is known for lingering and hampering players well after the fact. High ankle sprains and hamstring injuries are the most overlooked and misunderstood injuries in sports because they don't require surgery and aren't completely diagnosable. You break a bone and fans will validate it immediately because it appears cut and dry. Bone broke? Can't play (and if you do you're a warrior). Sub par play upon return? It wasn't healed properly the guy just wanted to get back on the field! But sprained ankle or hammy just sound like weak injuries that can be powered through with little effect.

I'm not saying you have to give Rod the benefit of the doubt (I do) but pointing to Hardy and Gregory to say he's no good because they were the premier options is being either obtuse or disingenuous.

All you hear from players is how much they love playing for him, how he gets the most out of them, and that he pushes for effort and responsibility at all times. That's what I hang my hat and opinion of him on. He's had a collection of jags and one semi pro bowl talent who can't stay on the field, with a random bone or two thrown his way over the years and each time he's gotten a toy there was a string attached where he was a head case, a perrenial underachiever, a small school unknown, or other crucial pieces were lost for the season.

Obviously as time goes by it feels like excuse after excuse and he should be running out of them, but outside of last year and really attempting to infuse the D with blue chip talents (addressed above) they've largely given him a scrap heap and said "good luck with all that"

 

[Stash]

Yes, and those teams who have had horrible injuries end up at the bottom of the league in D. Please tell me how many team lost the starters we did in '14? How many have had three starters suspended to start the season? How did they fair? Remember over half the teams in the leauge were worse than us in defense.

I will put blame of the FO for personnel gafts and lack of depth, but I will not simplistically go after a DC who has done well with the tools at his disposal.

You can try to divert the subject by throwing around the injuries to Romo, Bryant and the offense. But it doesn't excuse the repeated underachievement on defense.

It is necessary to point out your ridiculous takes which are absurd to begin with.

Truth hurts.

Again in your fantasy land. Let's pretend Hardy was coming off a 15 sack season, fresh and ready to go, not out of football for a year and facing scandal.

The fact is that he's done it. He was the best pass rusher available. Another fact that SuperFan sensibilities can't handle.

The fact is that Hardy was not up to par and Gregory got injured, but you want to continually gloss over facts to support your agenda (which is really simplistic).

Just like you want to use players as excuses for subpar coaching. Hardy didn't 'suck' until he got here and played in a Marinelli defense. Just like most everyone else. At some point, when enough players are shuffled in and out and this team is no closer to finding the answers, maybe some will actually look at the coaching?

It is very easy to just look at the final results and say "they suck, fire them", it really takes no critical thinking, just like your responses in most of your posts, which are just the typical platitudes of a poster who lets their jadedness and negativity interfere their reason.

It's even easier to work to come up with built-in excuses for your favorite team year in and year out. Some fans feel that it's part of their job description.

I'm not one of them.

Again, 25th in sacks is the best Rod and his 'Rushmen' have done. That's not opinion, it's not excuses, it's the cold, hard facts.

 

[Denim Chicken]

You can try to divert the subject by throwing around the injuries to Romo, Bryant and the offense. But it doesn't excuse the repeated underachievement on defense.

14’ significant defensive injuries: Lawrence (9), Lee(16), Durant (12), Crawford(7), Claiborne(14).

So you lose your best pass rusher, two staring LBs, starting CB, and a rotational rusher, but that’s all an excuse. OK.

The fact is that he's done it. He was the best pass rusher available. Another fact that SuperFan sensibilities can't handle. Just like you want to use players as excuses for subpar coaching. Hardy didn't 'suck' until he got here and played in a Marinelli defense. Just like most everyone else. At some point, when enough players are shuffled in and out and this team is no closer to finding the answers, maybe some will actually look at the coaching?

It is really laughable that you are trying to blame the defense (scheme, coaching, support--I really don't know) for Hardy's lack of production. Dude was two years out from playing and fell apart at the latter half of the season. I willing to bet you are all alone on this take.

Again, 25th in sacks is the best Rod and his 'Rushmen' have done. That's not opinion, it's not excuses, it's the cold, hard facts.

Cool story, who we’re his pass rushers? How many games did they play? Feel free to gloss over the takeaways in 14’ or the D’s 15-16 ranking in PPG (pretty good for what he’s had to work with).

You’re just repeating yourself now, using the same platitudes and strawmen, glossing over the points I raised, and resorting to insults. I'll let you have the last word bc I know it's important to you, but you are really reaching on this one. Peace.

 

[perrykemp]

For the record, I was against switching back to the 4-3 in the first place.

There are no inherent advantages of a 4-3 vs 3-4. Teams win Superbowls with both. Some of it is the ying-yang of how many teams are running a 3-4 in the league at any given time since it's a bit harder to find 3-4 OLBs.

I guess the surprising thing to me is they decided that moving to Monte Kiffin as the DC was worth scrapping a 3-4 that had one of the best combo sets of 3-4 OLBs in Ware / Spencer. Monte Kiffin's best days where way in the past, his defenses where being destroyed at USC, and for some reason the front office decided he was the guy was going to transform the Cowboy's defense.

Basically it was a terrible decision hiring Kiffin and it set the team's defense back in a way that they haven't fully recovered from.

 

[Stash]

14’ significant defensive injuries: Lawrence (9), Lee(16), Durant (12), Crawford(7), Claiborne(14).

So you lose your best pass rusher, two staring LBs, starting CB, and a rotational rusher, but that’s all an excuse. OK.

Yeah.

Suddenly Morris Claiborne, one of the biggest busts in this team's draft history, is now some 'loss' and used as an excuse. Again, the limbo bar goes pretty low. Not to mention, the rookie Lawrence retroactively called the "best pass rusher". Some fans will tell themselves anything...

And again, you want to think that Marinelli and the Cowboys are the only team that's ever had to deal with injuries when it's the furthest thing from the truth.

It is really laughable that you are trying to blame the defense (scheme, coaching, support--I really don't know) for Hardy's lack of production. Dude was two years out from playing and fell apart at the latter half of the season. I willing to bet you are all alone on this take.

What's even more "laughable" is the homerism if attempt at revisionist history. The fact is that Hardy came out like a ball of fire and got worse the longer he played in Marinelli's scheme, not better. But of course the easy thing to do now is blame the player who's no longer here and gloss over the reasons why it happened. Just like when the results suck again - for offense or defense - the default will be to once again blame the players and absolve the coaches.

Cool story, who we’re his pass rushers? How many games did they play? Feel free to gloss over the takeaways in 14’ or the D’s 15-16 ranking in PPG (pretty good for what he’s had to work with).

He had the players he wanted to work with. The Meltons and the Nick Hayden's that he wanted, unless you'd like to make another excuse that he had no say in the players on his own defense? Feel free to try.

You’re just repeating yourself now, using the same platitudes and strawmen, glossing over the points I raised, and resorting to insults. I'll let you have the last word bc I know it's important to you, but you are really reaching on this one. Peace.

Look up the definition of 'strawman' before you mistakenly try to use it. I'm presenting facts, proven rankings and stats. Not fan opinion like you are. Again, you simply can't deal with the truth. And I'll repeat those facts again and again to counter what is nothing more than a fan opinion, one that can't handle the truth about what actually happened.

 

[Stash]

There are no inherent advantages of a 4-3 vs 3-4. Teams win Superbowls with both. Some of it is the ying-yang of how many teams are running a 3-4 in the league at any given time since it's a bit harder to find 3-4 OLBs.

I prefer the versatility of the 3-4 scheme and feel it allows a defense more opportunity for creativity and disguise, providing an advantage.

I guess the surprising thing to me is they decided that moving to Monte Kiffin as the DC was worth scrapping a 3-4 that had one of the best combo sets of 3-4 OLBs in Ware / Spencer. Monte Kiffin's best days where way in the past, his defenses where being destroyed at USC, and for some reason the front office decided he was the guy was going to transform the Cowboy's defense.

Basically it was a terrible decision hiring Kiffin and it set the team's defense back in a way that they haven't fully recovered from.

Surprising to me as well. In addition to the Romo window and the investments made in man, not zone cornerbacks. Any time you're making a scheme change like that, you inevitably take a step or two back.

And the Kiffin hire was an obvious embarrassment.

 

[zrinkill]

We are doomed if that is the case.