D-Day - 70 Years Ago

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Not me I would be asking my travel agent "I thought this was a Caribbean cruise there has got to be a mistake."

ah you would be like Stitch Jones in Heartbreak Ridge when he found out they were attacking Grenada and said, no way, I done forgot my sun tan oil."

 

[jobberone]

Oops. Sorry I missed the initial post. Figured it would be in the Fan Zone and I've been out the majority of the day. My bad.

 

[AsthmaField]

They don't call them "the greatest generation" for nothing.

Phenomenal courage and resolve shown by so many. That whole conflict demonstrated all that is horrific in mankind... and all that is noble.

I never feel as insignificant as when I gaze upon the giants in history who waged war against the Axis Powers. Patton. Montgomery. Eisenhower. Churchill. MacArthur. De Gaulle. 101st Airborne. RAF.

These were the men who saved our very freedom.

The word epic is used for many things these days, but really it should be reserved for things like that struggle. Epic in every sense of the word.

 

[PJTHEDOORS]

I reflect for all the children who grew up 70s years ago today without a father. Sad.

 

[DallasEast]

he was referring to the RAF pilots when he used that quote

took major stones for the Americans British and Canadians to storm the beaches for sure. Something I am sure we would all have if necessary but hopefully none of us ever will have to do the same.

True, but that is not the reason why I borrowed the quote.

 

[arglebargle]

When they launched the attack, Eisenhower had his resignation speech, taking the blame for everything if it failed, all prepared and pinned inside his jacket. It was a huge risk, and everything depended on the determination of the troops heading in. The British, Canadian, and American troops there deserve more accolades than we can give them.

And also, given the word the day before, the French Resistance blew the train tracks all through southern France, causing weeks long delays to the Panzer units set to reinforce the German defenses. They also blew up the electricity going to the Normandy beachhead areas, which took out the Rommel designed side firing flamethrower hardpoints, set up to take out troops on the beaches. These were all electrical powered, so none were functional when the soldiers hit the beaches.

My father and uncles were all in the military at this time too, but were all in the South Pacific. My grandfather was training troops states side, but he'd done his time, as his unit had gone in to Dieppe.

 

[arglebargle]

Tarawa was on par with Omaha; really the only landing in the Pacific War that was as bad. The Japanese set up defense in depth with soldiers happy to die for the emperor if they could take a few of us with them. Okinawa was horrendous as that kind of defense was all but perfected. Okinawa was the real reason that dropping the Bombs were not really debated at all; despite what some of those involved said years later. If was feared that invading the home islands would be on a scale only seen in the first world war for blood. And to try and starve the Japanese out would have killed millions as well. Those that claim the bombs should not have been dropped conveniently ignore that they waited until after we dropped the second one and Russia declared war on them before they finally gave in. Even then they were willing to fight on to keep the Emperor on his throne; and young officers almost staged a coup the day before the Emperor's surrender address to keep on fighting. It was a very near thing.

Good analysis!

 

[blindzebra]

The key to it working was Hitler sleeping past 10 am and everyone was afraid to wake him. Then he refused to listen to Rommel who wanted to move the tanks from Belgium to the beaches.

While all the Germans waited for orders, the allies turned chicken stuff and chicken salad. When the bombardment failed we found a way to get to the German artillery.When the air drops were miles off target officers rounded up troops and hit whatever targets were nearby.

 

[burmafrd]

Rommel and the other generals made several fundamental mistakes. They bought the diversion ploy of the attack being intended to go across the narrowest width of the Channel at Pas De Calais. The 15th Army of over 300,000 men, guns and tanks sat there for weeks after the invasion as Hitler refused to believe Normandy was the real attack. Rommel of course knew otherwise but was unable to convince him. Rommel thought we would attack at high tide so as to not have to slog over long distances; so most of the anti landing craft mines were set and thus when we landed at low tide they were exposed and avoided. He was absolutely correct in having the reinforcements as close as possible; he was the only senior German FM that understood what it meant to fight under enemy dominated skies. He knew that any panzer attack that had to move any real distance would be stopped by either destroyed roads and bridges or direct air attack. Which is what happened.

Rommel intended the battle to be fought at the waters edge- as it was at Omaha. He knew that with the allied air supremacy and their naval gunfire that any troops NOT in fortified or very well dug in positions would be too vulnerable. Omaha was a very near thing; only the grit and determination of the GI's pulled that through. The other 4 beaches were virtual cakewalks and insured the success of the invasion even if we had had to abandon Omaha.

Bottom line is that Rommel had to defend the entire coast line of France from the Spanish border to the Dutch border. Too much and it was impossible to fortify and prepare - just not the time and resources to do it. But Omaha does show how things COULD have gone had he been able to do all that he wanted to; and if indeed they had the Panzers much closer to the beaches as well? Not good thoughts. I believe our Air and the paratroopers would have been able to stop them but the price especially for our Paratroopers could very well have been what Eisenhower feared and Leigh-Mallory worried about.

By the time we attacked Normandy we had incredible advantages in all material areas. Total control of the Air; resistance movements in place all around giving us excellent information; the 352nd Coastal Defense division had just moved one regiment into Omaha days before the attack; pure coincidence.

An amphibious assault against a prepared and ready enemy is considered the most risky possible attack in warfare., Only our great edge and determination allowed us to win there in what was relatively easy and cheap warfare.

Things broke our way as well every place else except Omaha. Our paratroops getting scattered confused the Germans into not believing this was the real thing; if they had been concentrated and landed on target as they were supposed to be it would have been a key tipoff where the invasion would happen. As it was they were scattered all over the place; some as much as 20 miles from where they were supposed to be. And they then responded by attacking every single German unit and position; causing all sorts of panic and confusion.

 

[burmafrd]

IF things had gone as Rommel intended:

All the beaches fortified and manned as Omaha was

Landing at high tide and thus losing significant boats and troops to the anti landing craft mines

Panzers near enough to attack the same day

15th Army immediately moved to Normandy

It would have been very bad.

I believe we still would have had a successful invasion. But the price would have been 10 times or more greater.

Para troops all but wiped out; casualty rates among the 5 assault divisions over 50%.

A constrained lodgement that the germans could have contained for much longer then they did.

Us not reaching the German border until maybe the following spring.

The war lasting another 6 months or more. Millions more dead in the death camps and elsewhere. Russia in control of virtually all of Europe Except France and the Netherlands and part of Germany. Italy possibly the northern part going communist since we might have had to pull troops from there to help out in Normandy and France and thus stop the advance past Rome.

We ran out of troops and divisions late in 44 due to the 100 division plan; it would have been worse this case. A scramble to cannibalize units and possibly divert troops from the Pacific and thus slow down that advance; maybe we have to wait longer to attack Iwo and Okinawa; allowing Japan to further fortify those islands. Who knows what we might have done with the Atomic Bombs then?

 

[MichaelWinicki]

So many interesting "what ifs" when it came to the war like...

-What if the UK and France hadn't been passive while Germany attacked Poland?
-What if Germany successfully invaded the UK?
-What if Germany never attacked the Soviet Union?
-What if Japan attacked the Soviet Union instead of the US?
-What if Germany had captured Moscow?

And one of the most interesting ones for me, which doesn't get a lot of air-time is what if Germany ramped up its war production much sooner? If you look at the numbers and read some of the historical background from the German perspective the string of quick & easy victories dampened the enthusiasm for escalating the building of military equipment until much later in the war.

The other "what if" if find interesting is the potential East-West clash in Germany upon the surrender of the German forces... There was potential friction there that could have led to Soviet-American/Anglo clash in the Spring of 1945.

 

[blindzebra]

So many interesting "what ifs" when it came to the war like...

-What if the UK and France hadn't been passive while Germany attacked Poland?
-What if Germany successfully invaded the UK?
-What if Germany never attacked the Soviet Union?
-What if Japan attacked the Soviet Union instead of the US?
-What if Germany had captured Moscow?

And one of the most interesting ones for me, which doesn't get a lot of air-time is what if Germany ramped up its war production much sooner? If you look at the numbers and read some of the historical background from the German perspective the string of quick & easy victories dampened the enthusiasm for escalating the building of military equipment until much later in the war.

The other "what if" if find interesting is the potential East-West clash in Germany upon the surrender of the German forces... There was potential friction there that could have led to Soviet-American/Anglo clash in the Spring of 1945.

The last one is the famous Patton line of attacking the ruskies and making it look like those *******s started it...lol

 

[BringBackThatOleTimeBoys]

Harold Taft was one of the meteorologists on Ike's staff advising on D-Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Taft

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The last one is the famous Patton line of attacking the ruskies and making it look like those *******s started it...lol

It would have been an interesting and very bloody fight no doubt. The question would be how long would it last? It could have the sort of thing that burned itself out pretty quickly. The Soviets had a huge amount of manpower and equipment available to them on the eastern front. As burms pointed out, the US was lacking manpower due to the 100-division limit. It would have taken time to create additional fighting units. But the quality of the Soviet units at this state of the war was questionable... They were able to collapse the eastern front through brute force. They had an incredible amount of artillery available. And would the US have armed German's to fight the Russians? Politically it sounds unpalatable, but if it looked like the Russians would shove the other Allies right out of Germany I could see it happening.

I could see the Russians having the early advantage... until the airpower of the US and the UK took over the skies and then the Soviets would gradually be driven back.

The Soviets were at the bottom of their man-power bucket. Their ability to raise new divisions was pretty well spent. The US on the other hand could have raised another 100 divisions if need be... the trick was the time frame it would take to accomplish.

 

[burmafrd]

It would have been an interesting and very bloody fight no doubt. The question would be how long would it last? It could have the sort of thing that burned itself out pretty quickly. The Soviets had a huge amount of manpower and equipment available to them on the eastern front. As burms pointed out, the US was lacking manpower due to the 100-division limit. It would have taken time to create additional fighting units. But the quality of the Soviet units at this state of the war was questionable... They were able to collapse the eastern front through brute force. They had an incredible amount of artillery available. And would the US have armed German's to fight the Russians? Politically it sounds unpalatable, but if it looked like the Russians would shove the other Allies right out of Germany I could see it happening.

I could see the Russians having the early advantage... until the airpower of the US and the UK took over the skies and then the Soviets would gradually be driven back.

The Soviets were at the bottom of their man-power bucket. Their ability to raise new divisions was pretty well spent. The US on the other hand could have raised another 100 divisions if need be... the trick was the time frame it would take to accomplish.

The soviets were tired and worn out by the end of the war. The battle for Berlin cost them 1 million casualties alone. With our ability to dominate the skies, it would not have lasted long as their supply lines would have been toast. They had even run out of penal battalions.

 

[burmafrd]

Harold Taft was one of the meteorologists on Ike's staff advising on D-Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Taft

they make a big deal out of Ike's decision. But actually he really had no choice in the matter. The longer they waited the more possible the germans finding out the landing site; and surprise was the one thing they could not afford to lose.

 

[BringBackThatOleTimeBoys]

^ agreed on suprize, part of it due to Hitler - he slept until 10 am (D-Day + 3.5 hrs) and nobody dared wake him. He did not allow his generals permission to respond, giving the Allies golden days to form a beachhead.

The engineering was amazing:

• underground pipelines
• artificial harbor
• landing craft and other vehicles for the landing

On a related topic, the predecessor of the CIA did their 1st psychological profile of a head of state on 8off. Anything to get into the mind of this madman to end the war sooner, esp. if he got the bomb. The reports predictions were spot on: hid from the public as Germany was losing, too proud to be captured alive, etc. Now the CIA does profiles on all heads of state. The documentary below....

 

[Denim Chicken]

9000 bodies etched in the sand to represent the losses.


post a picture

 

[blindzebra]

9000 bodies etched in the sand to represent the losses.


post a picture

Every source I have seen has the Omaha Beach deaths at around 2,200. The total allies killed in all D-Day action was about 4,400 with around 2,700 being from US troops.

 

[burmafrd]

Every source I have seen has the Omaha Beach deaths at around 2,200. The total allies killed in all D-Day action was about 4,400 with around 2,700 being from US troops.

yeah that 9000 number is very suspicious